flood of anti-Mormon sentiment

[arizona_sunshine]

How does one attain the highest level of heaven?

Ultimately, thru The Only Begotten. You know we believe that.

And we do not fear the possibility that it takes effort, accountability and responsibility on our parts. Faith-inspired works.

 

[spike]

..The fruit of the vine represents His blood that was shed. The bread represents his body. I believe that it is symbolic, but that wine or grape juice symbolizes the blood of Jesus better than water does. I think that it is best to observe it in the way that Jesus taught.

Thank you for clarifying that 'fruit of the vine' is analogous. In my line of work, I run across quite a few fruit-bearing vines. Jesus did not specify wine, nor grape juice, nor anything more specific than what was said. You said, 'I think..'.. and it is important to make the distinction before we enter into heated discussions propagated by personal opinion rather than scripture.

I've even run across a few Christian friends' opinions that the 'wine' drunk back then wasn't actually what wine is today, thus, they reject the notion of consuming the contemporary version of it for this purpose.

At least it makes it easier for anyone suffering under the yoke of alcoholism to know that they won't be denied The Sacrament if they don't drink the wine.. and I'm trying to imagine how that 'quiet time' after the partaking of grape juice would be once that sugar bomb makes its way into the little bodies of the kids attending Mass/Sacrament/Insert Favorite Title Here..

 

[Wrigley]

Ultimately, thru The Only Begotten. You know we believe that.

And we do not fear the possibility that it takes effort, accountability and responsibility on our parts. Faith-inspired works.

I know that you believe faith+works. It can't be all of Christ in your construct.

 

[arizona_sunshine]

I know that you believe faith+works. It can't be all of Christ in your construct.

Are you suggesting that our beliefs limit the power of Christ's atonement?

If this is the case, it could not be further from the truth.

 

[TOmNossor]

I know that you believe faith+works.

So do the Catholics. So do the EO. So did EVERY Christian who put pen to paper to describe righteousness before the reformers ignored parts of the Bible and came up with "faith alone."



And it is still through Christ that we work. His righteousness is infused into us.

Arizona_Sunshine's Faith inspired works is a great way of saying it too.



Since you believe that you can have no effect on our salvation Wrigley, why don't you try to learn what we believe rather than erecting falsity?



Charity, TOm

 

[happyinhisgrace]

I do not think that using water instead of wine or grape juice during communion makes it null and void. But I believe that the reasons that Jesus used wine are rather than water are beyond health benefits. He told His diciples:

Matthew 26

27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

​

The fruit of the vine represents His blood that was shed. The bread represents his body. I believe that it is symbolic, but that wine or grape juice symbolizes the blood of Jesus better than water does. I think that it is best to observe it in the way that Jesus taught.

I agree. Also only unleavened bread was used in passover. It was a "forshadow" of Jesus sacrafice for the sins of man. The unlevended bread was beat into shape (for lack of better word) and when cooked had many imperfections and blemishes on it symbolizing the bruised and beated flesh of the Redeemer who would save man from his sin and die on the cross. That is why most Christian churches use crackers or flat breads in communion and the reason for the wine in most communion services is what Svt4Him stated above.

Grace

 

[Wrigley]

Are you suggesting that our beliefs limit the power of Christ's atonement?

If this is the case, it could not be further from the truth.

.3.

Good way of putting it.

How is your jesus sovriegn if he needs some works from you to complete salvation.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Are you suggesting that our beliefs limit the power of Christ's atonement?

If this is the case, it could not be further from the truth.

Nothing limits the power of Jesus' atonement, nothing. Man however limits himself.

Grace

 

[gort]

Hello,

But still the LDS have 3 heavens. What determines which one that LDS will go to ?

What is the determining FACTOR?

Upon learning of 3 heavens, what comes into the mind of the LDS. Somewhere along the line, an incentive to do works to attain your highest degree of exaltation. The fruitful works would no longer seem to come from the heart, but from works of the flesh.

God tells us in Revelations of one specific place where He and His Son will be. Outside those walls, is the outer darkness. I don't see three heavens in this scripture.

Can we now assume that the Book of Revelations has now been changed?


<><

 

[arizona_sunshine]

Nothing limits the power of Jesus' atonement, nothing. Man however limits himself.

...and limits his own access to Christ's atoning blood thru pride.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Since you believe that you can have no effect on our salvation Wrigley, why don't you try to learn what we believe rather than erecting falsity?
I don't recal seeing wrigley state that he believed this.


Grace

 

[skylark1]

Thank you for clarifying that 'fruit of the vine' is analogous. In my line of work, I run across quite a few fruit-bearing vines. Jesus did not specify wine, nor grape juice, nor anything more specific than what was said. You said, 'I think..'.. and it is important to make the distinction before we enter into heated discussions propagated by personal opinion rather than scripture.

I wasn't aware that this was a heated discussion. I'm calm.

If you do not think that Jesus was speaking of grapes when he spoke of the fruit of the vine, then what do you think that he meant?



It was the Passover meal, which included five cups of wine, four which were drank:

Passover Traditions



The Passover celebration begins with the "seder", the traditional Passover meal. The seder consists of many elements and can be quite long--lasting until the early morning hours for some very religious Jews. The "required" parts of the seder, however, are the retelling of the story of the exodus from Egypt, eating matza and drinking four cups of wine.

In order to make it possible for all Jews to tell the story of Passover, the "haggada" was created. This book, read at the seder, contains--in addition to the story--all of the blessings over the different types of food, Passover songs and more.

The matza that we eat at the seder and throughout the seven days of Passover (eight days outside of Israel) must be prepared under the strictest rabbinic supervision to be sure that the dough has no chance of rising. During Passover, we eat no leavened foods or foods made from grain other than Passover flour. The four cups of wine represent the four "redemption speeches" made by God, in which He promised to free the Hebrews from slavery in Egypt. A fifth cup of wine is placed on the table for Elijah the Prophet. This cup symbolizes a fifth promise of salvation made by God. Because it is said that it will be Elijah the Prophet who will declare the coming of final salvation, this cup of wine is meant for him. No one at the table is permitted to taste the wine from this cup.
source
​

I've even run across a few Christian friends' opinions that the 'wine' drunk back then wasn't actually what wine is today, thus, they reject the notion of consuming the contemporary version of it for this purpose.

At least it makes it easier for anyone suffering under the yoke of alcoholism to know that they won't be denied The Sacrament if they don't drink the wine.. and I'm trying to imagine how that 'quiet time' after the partaking of grape juice would be once that sugar bomb makes its way into the little bodies of the kids attending Mass/Sacrament/Insert Favorite Title Here..

I suspect that alcoholics chose to only partake of the bread if wine is served. A tablespoon or so of juice is a sugar bomb? Please tell me that you are joking! My kids have done fine with this.

So, why do LDS use water instead of grape juice? I understand the avoidance of alcohol. What does the water symbolize for you?

 

[Kevin Graham]

== What does the water symbolize for you?

Blood of Christ of course. It could be orange juice or kool-aid too.

 

[saltoearth]

I think just about everyone is wrong about salvation (smile). In regards to bibical doctrine, why not use the bible to prove your beliefs (this is for LDS and non LDS alike)! To just toss comments and opinions back and forth is vanity of vanities. The Word will divide truth and error. THIS comes straight from his WORD, this is how God defines Righteousness, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law" Galatians 5:22,23. None of this is human nature (an enemy of God), but God gives us a renewed nature when we are concieved again trough his WORD (1 peter 1:3, 23). We die to sin (1 peter 4:1) in a very literal way, just as Jesus died in a very literal way. Our sins are not just covered, they are DEAD. Everyone wants to say that it is impossible to stop sinning. That is true, if you do not believe in all the promises we have in the bible to the contrary. This is the TRUE GRACE OF GOD (1Peter 5:12). The one that almost nobody believes because they are CONVICTED by their own sin, and discourage by their FLESH. Mormons do not believe in FULL GRACE they believe in salvation AFTER all you can do (do not deny it, it is right there in the BOM 2Nephi something, I dont STUDY the BOM so forgive me). There is nothing you can do, NOTHING without faith. God is not pleased with anything else but faith, he will rebuke your sacrifice and tell you to go off to the left, along with Cain and the Pharisees.
Mormons make fun of Faith based salvation. They think that faith is just another way of saying lazy. Faith is full of good works, but not our own. Only the works of God come through faith. Works may look the same on the surface (pharisees, whitened graves, inside is dead mans bones) but God proves it by fire (tribulation). When someone comes to Jesus on our knees like the Publican who would not even look up, he beat his chest and said "have mercy on me a sinner", God hears him and he is saved from that very HOUR. That brings tears to my eyes, just thinking about Gods love. Jesus said, "I desire mercy and not sacrifice". The Mormons (and a lot of Christians I must say) are trying to do the fleshy sacrifice, but God does not want it. This speel is perhaps incomprihendible because I have too much to say about the matter, and little time at this internet cafe. Forgive me one and all for my mistakes in paraphrasing His Holy Word.

Shake it Good,
Salty

 

[skylark1]

== What does the water symbolize for you?

Blood of Christ of course. It could be orange juice or kool-aid too.

Hey, sometimes you don't know if you don't ask!

But why do LDS use water?

 

[emerald Dragon]

Godswords-your comment is incorrect. When I said we must have atestimony, I mean that we must have faith and believe in all that Christ did for us. As for the rest, we believe in salvation with good works included.

God Bless,
Emerald Dragon

 

[Wrigley]

OK folks, here is my $.02 on this whole water/wine thing.

What the bread and wine represent, not what they are, is the important thing. I can recall one time where water was used for Communion at a church I went to because of mixed signals on who was supposed to bring the communion wine. Communion is a celebration of what Christ did. So even though wine wasn't used, the congregation was still able to remember and believe what Christ did.

I think what needs to be looked at is reasons why water is used exclusively in the mormon sacrament.

I'll speculate here, and because I am speculating I have license to change as developements warrant, I know the mormons here will appreciate that.

Why would water be used.
1. In order to keep consistent with the Christian church falling into apostacy, a different element would be used. Replace water for wine.

2. Those pesky WOW. Alcohol is prohibited, so once again to remain consistent, wine could not be used. And we know that the WOW are one of the works needed to gain the highest level of heaven. This also begs the question of why grape juice wasn't substituted for wine. But #1 helps explain that.

3. Maybe there weren't any good wine makers amongst the early mormons.

 

[Theway]

== What does the water symbolize for you?

Blood of Christ of course. It could be orange juice or kool-aid too.

They aready think we're a cult so lets leave out the reference to kool-aid wouldn't want to scare anybody.

 

[arizona_sunshine]

They aready think we're a cult so lets leave out the reference to kool-aid wouldn't want to scare anybody.

must... supress..... laughter.... *snicker* hee hee

thats bad, theway.

 

[Kevin Graham]

Hey, I once used Robitussin because it was all we had!