flood of anti-Mormon sentiment

[Breetai]

I do not believe that if someone prays this prayer that they are either inspired by the Holy Spirit or a demon. I think that it is possible for our own desires to provoke a response. If we want something to be true or false, it is possible to feel that God has confirmed this. So, there is a third option. I believe that there are other options as well.

Very likely. Maybe it's in my character to question everthing. I wouldn't want it any other way.

 

[spike]

Sunshine,
This makes no sense. Do you know what the water content percentage is in wine? How does on (sic) drink wine without drinking water?

Is this just one of those "rationalizations" you've been told or have you done any research to back this statement up. How do you reach such conclusions!!!

Hi, Baker~

The research that you seek is easily found..

First, some basics on viniculture: Yes, wine is 'mostly' water, but the source of this water comes from grapes - it is drawn up thru the plant and is free of contaminants and bacteria - a 'pure' source, if you will, which wasn't a common occurrence in ancient days.

Note that water is not added to wine during the fermentation process. Your statement alludes to this, but it only shows a lack of understanding on how wine is produced.

As such, typically wine would be safer to drink than water from many 'municipal' water souces, as the water did not come from a spring, river, etc., where it could have become contaminated. It was generated from the crushed fruit and further kept purer than typical groundwater sources by its alcohol content.

I submit the following..

Recent medical studies pointing toward the potential health benefits of moderate wine-consumption would not have surprised early wine-drinkers. In ancient Egypt, wine was believed to be a treatment for asthma and other afflictions. Soldiers routinely carried flasks of wine to mix with drinking water because the wine's alcohol killed some harmful contaminants.

December 15th, 2000

Wine in the Ancient World

By Jacob Gaffney - Wine Spectator Magazine

Although wine was typically employed during ceremonial occasions, there is no indication that Jesus insisted wine be drunk in his honor. The accusation, then, that employing water in the LDS sacrament somehow nullifies the event is rather silly.

LMBO....and what is wine made mostly of? Oh, I will laugh over that one for days.

Grace

Grace, see the above, and seek thee wisdom.

Have a great day!

-spike-

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Hi, Baker~

The research that you seek is easily found..

First, some basics on viniculture: Yes, wine is 'mostly' water, but the source of this water comes from grapes - it is drawn up thru the plant and is free of contaminants and bacteria - a 'pure' source, if you will, which wasn't a common occurrence in ancient days.

Note that water is not added to wine during the fermentation process. Your statement alludes to this, but it only shows a lack of understanding on how wine is produced.

As such, typically wine would be safer to drink than water from many 'municipal' water souces, as the water did not come from a spring, river, etc., where it could have become contaminated. It was generated from the crushed fruit and further kept purer than typical groundwater sources by its alcohol content.

I submit the following..

Recent medical studies pointing toward the potential health benefits of moderate wine-consumption would not have surprised early wine-drinkers. In ancient Egypt, wine was believed to be a treatment for asthma and other afflictions. Soldiers routinely carried flasks of wine to mix with drinking water because the wine's alcohol killed some harmful contaminants.

December 15th, 2000

Wine in the Ancient World

By Jacob Gaffney - Wine Spectator Magazine

Although wine was typically employed during ceremonial occasions, there is no indication that Jesus insisted wine be drunk in his honor. The accusation, then, that employing water in the LDS sacrament somehow nullifies the event is rather silly.



Grace, see the above, and seek thee wisdom.

Have a great day!

-spike-

thanks spike but I already knew "the above" and I am still laughing.

Grace

 

[arizona_sunshine]

This makes no sense. Do you know what the water content percentage is in wine? How does on drink wine without drinking water?

Decided to engage you again because this post has left me completely confused. (Original is on page 5 of this thread if you need to reference it)

Sorry I didnt catch this until long after it was posted...

My original post was in reference to the available drinking water in the area of the world during Christ's time--- not the actual consumption of water itself... There is a large percentage of water content in wine, but, if I am not completely mistaken, the water content would have been derived from the original fruit, the grapes.... not the local lake / river / wash basin / sewer system / etc...

It is my understanding also, that available drinking water continues to remain a worldwide problem... so am I completely out of the normal line of thinking to suggest that wine would have been preferred to water, in Christs time, in Christs area of the world for normal, everyday use?

If I am completely out of line, I am very willing to learn otherwise, seriously, and I can be taught without an excess of sarcasm and contempt, if you wanted to conserve those emotions for other rediculous, uninformed posts I will surely be making in the future...

 

[arizona_sunshine]

LMBO....and what is wine made mostly of? Oh, I will laugh over that one for days.

That post was totally worth your effort.

 

[arizona_sunshine]

oh hi spike, thanks

grace, now you are completely losing me... what is so LMBO??? i dont get it.

 

[skylark1]

Although wine was typically employed during ceremonial occasions, there is no indication that Jesus insisted wine be drunk in his honor.

But at the last supper Jesus spoke of drinking of the fruit of the vine:

Luke 22
15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

​

 

[arizona_sunshine]

thanks spike but I already knew "the above" and I am still laughing.

So basically is your position is: You knew it all and I am really funny.

OK. Youre not volunteering a whole lot of revealing information to this topic...

 

[happyinhisgrace]

That post was totally worth your effort.

Didn't take much effort and ya, your right, it was worth it

 

[arizona_sunshine]

But at the last supper Jesus spoke of drinking of the fruit of the vine:

Luke 22
15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

​

I agree, and we do practice the Sacrament, our main weekly meeting is centered around partaking in the Sacrament.

My position is just this: The institution is not null & void with the use of water as opposed to wine.

I offered what I thought may have been a reasonable suggestion as to why wine was used in the first place--- because the consumption of wine was more prominant than the consumption of plain drinking water. If I am not mistaken, that continues to be the case in areas of the world.

Am I way off base? Because if I am, I can be taught, honestly.

 

[skylark1]

I do not think that using water instead of wine or grape juice during communion makes it null and void. But I believe that the reasons that Jesus used wine are rather than water are beyond health benefits. He told His diciples:

Matthew 26
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
​

The fruit of the vine represents His blood that was shed. The bread represents his body. I believe that it is symbolic, but that wine or grape juice symbolizes the blood of Jesus better than water does. I think that it is best to observe it in the way that Jesus taught.

 

[Rescued One]

Are you saying that some of your members worship the devil? Are you saying that by getting a temple recommend, it proves that one of your members isn’t a child abuser? Who signs your temple recommend? You or your Bishop and Stake President? Can I have one? What are the horrible sins your members commit that bar them from entering the temple?

Did you truly so completely misunderstand what I asked? I answered your questions, but you did not answer mine. Since it seems you “have the time” why did you avoid the question?

I asked you if within your church if the most important God called duties are preformed by those in gross rebellion against God. You did not answer.

We were not talking about a LDS being called to the bishopric or to teach Sunday School. You are saying that only worthy LDS can enter your temples. Protestants are therefore unworthy Christians in your eyes. Please back this teaching up with a biblical reference. In Christian churches, we don't deem certain members unworthy of God's blessings based on whether or not they have a glass of iced tea.

In the CoJCoLDS the most sacred duties and ordinances are preformed by those who are not in open rebellion against God. If you are a faithful LDS, you believe that God has called you to subordinate your will to his will. If you do not think you have heeded that call, you will report this to your Bishop.

Why report your sins to the Bishop? How can he help you?

Repentance and calling on Christ’s help in my experience have been the council of the Bishop.

Mormons can call on God without going through their Bishop, can't they?

Unless you are content to have Sunday School teachers and Preachers who are in gross rebellion against God, perhaps child abusers, then you have standards too.

Biblical standards make sense. So your temple recommends weed out the child abusers and iced tea drinkers?

That the LDS standards are more exacting I will not apologize for.

Your elitism is showing.

President Joseph Fielding Smith frankly said he believed that Mormons are "the best people in the world.... We are morally clean, in every way equal, and in many ways superior to any other people" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.236). http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech23.htm#552

We know that we have been called to do more than just abstain from the grossest of sins.

Christian standards are biblical, not pharisetical man-made rules.

As to the beliefs of the CoJCoLDS, I explained that the CoJCoLDS says that all will have a “fair and just opportunity.” Since all ordinances will be preformed by God’s servants, ones failure to perform these ordinances in this life clearly cannot be viewed as precluding exaltation.

Ah, yes, I forgot:

"The greatest responsibilty in this world that God has laid upon us is to seek after our dead." ---Joseph Smith, Jr., Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 7

Non-LDS really fall short here, don't they? This was the message of Christ? How did we miss it?

You asked a question. You received an answer. Then you claimed the answer was wrong. This is not the behavior of someone who wants to know answers. The things you think you know you are mistaken on.

My answer is Jesus. I didn't say I came here to convert to Mormonism.
____________________

No one gets a second chance after they die, but some like the man who lived and died without ever hearing the Word of God were not afforded a first chance to know Christ and believe that he died for our sins.

Do you believe in strict predestination? Are some of us born to go to hell no matter what we do or try to believe, and the rest born to go to heaven no matter what we do or try to believe? Some people believe this. Do you?

I do not believe that God decided who would be saved and who would not. He promised us that if we would seek Him, we would find Him. I take Him at His word.

 

[arizona_sunshine]

skylark1

I do not think that using water instead of wine or grape juice during communion makes it null and void.

I appreciate your open-mindedness.


The fruit of the vine represents His blood that was shed. The bread represents his body. I believe that it is symbolic, but that wine or grape juice symbolizes the blood of Jesus better than water does. I think that it is best to observe it in the way that Jesus taught.

And I can understand this perspective completely.

 

[emerald Dragon]

The worthiness of a member is based on the following criteria:

Are they taking care of th temples that God gave them (their bodies) by ensuring that it is not defiled on a regular basis by fornication, un-healthy substances, etc.? (this is the Word of Wisdom)

Are they adhereing to all the commandments that they have been given, to the best of their ability?

Do they have a testimony of Jesus Christ?

Do they follow the prophets?

Do they believe in the scriptures as given by Christ?

If they meet this criteria, then they are deemed worthy to enter the temple. If you meet all the criteria, then you have to be a mormon, as some things that we follow are not in other denominations.

If any member is found to be doing anything sinnful,they are interviewed, and are asked to stop it, and are given help to do so if needed. If it is severe enough, they can be excommunicated,, which removes them from the covenants that they made, and are therefore not as punishable by God for their sins.

If a member in the Churhc-anywhere, including the heirarchy-is found to be achild molestor, a rapists, a fornicator, etc., they are excommunicated. We do not tolerate people of this nature in positions of authority in the Church. I do not take kindly to the statement that Mormons are just better at hiding the leaders indescretions. We do not hide. If they do so, they are removed. I would not tolerate a leader that does any such thing.

God Bless,
Emerald Dragon

 

[TOmNossor]

We were not talking about a LDS being called to the bishopric or to teach Sunday School. You are saying that only worthy LDS can enter your temples. Protestants are therefore unworthy Christians in your eyes. Please back this teaching up with a biblical reference. In Christian churches, we don't deem certain members unworthy of God's blessings based on whether or not they have a glass of iced tea.



Why report your sins to the Bishop? How can he help you?




Mormons can call on God without going through their Bishop, can't they?

I do not believe that God decided who would be saved and who would not. He promised us that if we would seek Him, we would find Him. I take Him at His word.

GodsWordisTrue:

We were not talking about a LDS being called to the bishopric or to teach Sunday School. You are saying that only worthy LDS can enter your temples. Protestants are therefore unworthy Christians in your eyes. Please back this teaching up with a biblical reference. In Christian churches, we don't deem certain members unworthy of God's blessings based on whether or not they have a glass of iced tea.



TOm:

We are talking about preforming and being witness to Temple ceremonies that are more sacred than the carring out of ones duties as the Bishop.

Protestants cannot go into the Temple because they are not LDS. You could answer all the worthiness questions truthfully, and still not be a allowed to enter the Temple.



You put words in my mouth. I said nothing about Protestant who cannot go into the Temple being unworthy. We do call it a worthiness interview, but strictly speaking being “unworthy” can only apply to LDS who have rebelled against God and self-declare themselves not able to get a Temple recommend. I personally do not label LDS who do not have a temple recommend. Again I try to remember like C.S. Lewis said, "It is a serious thing, to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship.”



TOm:

LDS can call on God directly and do so hopefully multiple times per day.



LDS standards are from God.



If you do not believe in predestination what to you believe happened to the man who lived and died without every hearing the name Jesus Christ?



Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

Do you pray to Jesus? I do.

Do you honor Him equally with the Father as Jesus said to do in John 5:23? I do.

Do you call Jesus your Lord and your God? I do.

I absolutely “honour the Son, even as” I “honour the Father.” (John 5:23).

I pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ as Jesus Christ taught us too.



Of course I believe that the Father is united in a Trinity (just not your Trinity) with the Son, so indirectly I am certain the Son hears when I rejoice in His atoning sacrifice.

I do call Jesus Lord and God.



I assume you tried to separate by your questions. Why did you do this?



I took that survey. I was LDS at the top, but Catholic was up there.



Charity, TOm

 

[GodsWatchman]

The worthiness of a member is based on the following criteria:

Are they taking care of th temples that God gave them (their bodies) by ensuring that it is not defiled on a regular basis by fornication, un-healthy substances, etc.? (this is the Word of Wisdom)

Are they adhereing to all the commandments that they have been given, to the best of their ability?

Do they have a testimony of Jesus Christ?

Do they follow the prophets?

Do they believe in the scriptures as given by Christ?

If they meet this criteria, then they are deemed worthy to enter the temple. If you meet all the criteria, then you have to be a mormon, as some things that we follow are not in other denominations.

If any member is found to be doing anything sinnful,they are interviewed, and are asked to stop it, and are given help to do so if needed. If it is severe enough, they can be excommunicated,, which removes them from the covenants that they made, and are therefore not as punishable by God for their sins.

If a member in the Churhc-anywhere, including the heirarchy-is found to be achild molestor, a rapists, a fornicator, etc., they are excommunicated. We do not tolerate people of this nature in positions of authority in the Church. I do not take kindly to the statement that Mormons are just better at hiding the leaders indescretions. We do not hide. If they do so, they are removed. I would not tolerate a leader that does any such thing.

God Bless,
Emerald Dragon

*WOW* - Sounds like you guys have it all wrapped up then. Well - no need for that silly Crucifixion then ... Thank you for straightening me out. For a moment there I thought I was justified by faith - but you cleared that up for me ... Works is a much better road - yeah lets do that then

 

[arizona_sunshine]

*WOW* - Sounds like you guys have it all wrapped up then. Well - no need for that silly Crucifixion then ... Thank you for straightening me out. For a moment there I thought I was justified by faith - but you cleared that up for me ... Works is a much better road - yeah lets do that then

Its not about works over faith. Its about faith-inspired lifestyles.

No member of the LDS church is going to downplay the absolute importance of the Atonement, and the repentance process.

 

[Wrigley]

Its not about works over faith. Its about faith-inspired lifestyles.

No member of the LDS church is going to downplay the absolute importance of the Atonement, and the repentance process.

How does one attain the highest level of heaven?

 

[spike]

thanks spike but I already knew "the above" and I am still laughing.

Grace

Ah! Good.. I can see, then, that you were laughing at Baker instead of with him..

For if you knew that his conclusion was incorrect, then to have 'laughed your butt off' for any other reason wouldn't make any sense now - would it?

Have a Happy Day, Grace!