flood of anti-Mormon sentiment

[Wrigley]

But now we are!

At the crucifixion of Jesus, the veil to the Holy of Holies in the Temple was torn, giving us access to the Holy of Holies, a picture of our direct access to God.(Matthew 27:51, Hebrews 6:19, Hebrews 9:11-15) We have victory in Christ at the Cross.

Don't sew the veil back together. God is the One who tore it.

Great point.

 

[baker]

Fatboys,


I hope I did not personally offend you in my post 434. If I did, my apologies.

However do you realize that in your whole response included in you post 435, you did not anwer one question from my post 434 except that the WOW is about health.

Do you also realize how many millions of people are extreamely healthy and choose to have a cup of coffee, a glass of wine or perhaps a fine cigar? Prohibiting one from partaking in such things, and claiming it is a commandment from God, does not make one anymore healthy. I am not a promoter of alchohol, caffeine, or tabaco. They have risks. They also have benefits (except tabacco) that I am aware of. BUt if the WOW was really about health, it should address diet and exercise which are the real factors of health. Like you said, when you give a child their first ice cream cone, no-one anticipates a life long diet of unhealthy eating habits. Are they denied accsess to your temple because of being "unhelathy" or because they didn't follow arbitrary rules of man.

To deny what you claim are sacred ordinances of god because of what, in my observation, are arbitrary rules of control, cannot be supported by christian scripture. If it is, show us! Again, this is all about your claim that this is from god. Go below the surface and show us!

If you say these prohibitions are required by god, perhaps you should have someone from the BATF and Jack LaLane do the interview!

Fatboys, you really should provide support to your statements on this board and demonstrate at least some reason.

 

[baker]

Fatboys,

Being informed isn't always a bad thing.

FYI: http://content.health.msn.com/content/article/80/96454.htm


I know, I know - this must be the work of less than appropriate "spirits".

Or perhaps a revelation is required to "update" the WOW. Hey, it worked for plural marriages!

 

[Rescued One]

Fatboys,


Or perhaps a revelation is required to "update" the WOW. Hey, it worked for plural marriages!

​

 

[fatboys]

Fatboys,


I hope I did not personally offend you in my post 434. If I did, my apologies.

FB: No need to apologize, you did not come close to offending me. I have a skin as thick as a bull's hide.

However do you realize that in your whole response included in you post 435, you did not anwer one question from my post 434 except that the WOW is about health.

FB: I thought I did. What did I miss?

Do you also realize how many millions of people are extreamely healthy and choose to have a cup of coffee, a glass of wine or perhaps a fine cigar? Prohibiting one from partaking in such things, and claiming it is a commandment from God, does not make one anymore healthy. I am not a promoter of alchohol, caffeine, or tabaco. They have risks.

FB: These are things that are not necessary for us to be happy and healthy. They do not promote health. They do have their use though.

They also have benefits (except tabacco) that I am aware of. BUt if the WOW was really about health, it should address diet and exercise which are the real factors of health. Like you said, when you give a child their first ice cream cone, no-one anticipates a life long diet of unhealthy eating habits. Are they denied accsess to your temple because of being "unhelathy" or because they didn't follow arbitrary rules of man.

FB: They do have a proper use. Most do not use them the way they should though.

To deny what you claim are sacred ordinances of god because of what, in my observation, are arbitrary rules of control, cannot be supported by christian scripture. If it is, show us! Again, this is all about your claim that this is from god. Go below the surface and show us!

FB: There were times in the bible when God's people were told to refrain from eating certain foods.

If you say these prohibitions are required by god, perhaps you should have someone from the BATF and Jack LaLane do the interview!

Fatboys, you really should provide support to your statements on this board and demonstrate at least some reason.

FB: God gives us commandments that help us to become more than what we were. The first and most important thing to any commandment is faith. Faith in Jesus Christ and that his church has been restored. If you do not have any faith in this, then any laws that come about through this restoration will mean very little to those who do not believe them. Second is that at the time this commandment was given, there were very few people who did not work for survival in those days. Physcial excerise was not a priority at them time. It does say that those who live by this wisdom which that also includes things that we should eat and do. The last is that we will be able to run and not be weary and walk and not faint. Sounds like excercising.

 

[fatboys]

Fatboys,

Being informed isn't always a bad thing.

FYI: http://content.health.msn.com/content/article/80/96454.htm


I know, I know - this must be the work of less than appropriate "spirits".

Or perhaps a revelation is required to "update" the WOW. Hey, it worked for plural marriages!

FB: I don't take much stock in these things because they change with the wind. But thanks for the reading anyway.

 

[Rescued One]

FB: I don't take much stock in these things because they change with the wind.

Kind of like Mormon doctrine, eh?

 

[MormonFriend]

What is the purpose of the WOW? How does the definition of the WOW address this purpose? Is it control and obedience to the ruling bretheren, or is it for the general health and welfare of the members?

FB answered this, but a side note. I have often stated that most perspectives, such as yours, comes from an error of applying a piece of a jig-saw puzzle from our picture into the puzzle of your picture. And I must not do the same when striving to understand you. It is well agreed that our pictures are different, both in colors and shapes. Yet your questions continue to try and compare our beliefs and practices with your perception of what is true.



I see it this way, as a statement of an equal grounds agreement. We both believe this principal that Jesus taught.

24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: ( John10:24 - 27)



That should spell out the whole situation of all controversy on this entire forum. The concept that understanding is hid from "outsiders" must be acknowledged.



2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. (Colossians2:2 - 3)



I am an outsider to your faith and cannot understand it. You are an outsider to my faith and you cannot understand it. Whoever is wrong must make a change of heart to understand what is right. If that person cannot make that change of heart, then he/she is truly not of His fold, and will never understand. We can argue and point fingers for years on end. But surely there must be some Biblical measuring stick of some means where a person can self evaluate. That would be more efficient than pointing finger. I would love to search and discuss these self evaluators.

“ …Is it control and obedience to the ruling bretheren…”

You must understand (not necessarily believe) that it is by obedience to God that we follow the Prophet and other authorities. Our faith is that God chooses His servants wisely, though they be far from perfect. I have never once sensed a hint of selfish desire or control by any of the church leadership.

I work out regularly, exercise, box, bike and am in better shape than most people I know who are half my age. I have a wine collection and drink coffee.

Once you have answered what the purpose of the WOW is, tell me how those people who are 40-100 lbs over-weight, are more worthy of temple admittance (based on the WOW criteria only) than I am?

Boy, I’m glad that I am only 25 lbs over! Baker, I cannot declare that I am more worthy than you. A person who desires to enter the Temple must understand that higher requirements will be required of him/her by covenant. This would include a firm commitment to rid oneself of all the things that might make him less worthy than he presently is. It is a constant uphill climb to approach perfection. Reaching that goal is not the requirement for this life, but staying constantly on that climb is.

Can I do it in this life?

I’ll let you know when I have.

Have others made it?

I wouldn’t know because I would have to be perfect to be able to perceive it, and nobody has told me that they are. We understand that the people of Enoch achieved this. God commanded it, so it must be possible. But never at once, always line upon line. And that is what the Temple gives us, line upon line.

Regarding attendance at Temple weddings (sealings to be correct). This is an ordinance of great significance for a man and a woman in our faith. It is the most important covenant we can enter into and entails sacred moments. Can you imagine how a couple might feel if non-believers were present, even loved ones, as these sacred covenants were being exchanged, and being distracted by the knowledge that there are people present that may be mentally thinking whatever kind of negative thoughts that have been abundantly expressed on this forum? It would truly not be the experience that it should be.

Regarding your valid observance of being overweight, and with apologies for those who might not agree with me, I ask them to consider this perspective and reply. No, there is not a scale or a height stick in the Bishop’s office. (The charts say that I am too short for my weight.) But as we grow in the Temple and increase in understanding, we will sooner or later, if we are truly progressing, realize that moderation in all things is an eternal truth. We will realize that the scriptures do teach us that our bodies are Temples of God, and they deserve the highest care to every possible detail. These words have implicit application.

26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.

27 Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;

28 For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.

29 But he that doeth not anything until he is commanded, and receiveth a commandment with doubtful heart, and keepeth it with slothfulness, the same is ******.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section58:26 - 29)



Unless we have medical issues beyond our control, it is a good cause to keep our bodies fit, and we are agents unto ourselves to do something about it. In fact, there is an eternal principle that parallels our weight control, that pertains to love. Using me as an example, I have said that I desire to loose weight. How do you measure that desire? Is it sincere? Do I want this more than anything else? That answer is quickly revealed when the chocolate ice cream is in front of me and I have to make a decision. What do I desire more? What do I love more? Our choice is most difficult to hide because we wear it. There is always a sacrifice to be made in order to establish or prove what we truly love. Without facing the opposition of choice, our greatest priorities can not be revealed.



This is really the purpose of the Temple, to prove to ourselves that we truly love God. Jesus said:If ye love me, keep my commandments. (John14:15)Here you have the symbolic desire of a fit body (or to love Christ), and the ice cream (or the opposition to His commandments). Most people have a life long wrestling match in subjecting all things of their own will to God. Some get pinned early. A few may pin the opponent quickly and find rest, and devote their lives to helping other find victory.



For me, losing weight is a major factor on the “to do” list, because the same principle that will give me victory in this will be, if I succeed, “job experience” that will make greater issues to come more manageable. But again, and very important, it is line upon line, and precept upon precept. Therefore, when you see “Mormons” that don’t appear to be worthy, don’t assume that they are not struggling more than you can imagine.

13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

(1 Corinthians 10:13)



Given that revelation, how do we know what level of temptation another person is “suffering”? How do we know if the level of temptation others are experiencing wouldn’t crush you or me? WE DON’T!

Hence, you can better appreciate why I said: “I cannot declare that I am more worthy than you.”



I hope as you consider these thoughts, that the other questions you posted might have a different perspective now.

 

[emerald Dragon]

Baker-

While the WOW may not address exercise, per se it does address diet. It says what we should eat, and this is mostly a suggestion, to keep us healthy. But we are commanded to keep our temples (our bodies) fit for the Holy GHost, both spiritually and physically. The current General Authorities have told us to exercise, eat right, etc. This is what we are commanded.

God Bless,
Emerald Dragon