flood of anti-Mormon sentiment

[SiSSYGAL]

== when I went to the Mormon Church as a visitor, my host (the soon-to-be DIL's mother) introduced me to people and told me in whispered tones afterward that they were a real fine family and they own their own business, etc. When I took a friend to my church recently I introduced them to my friends and didn't think to add that they were real fine folk.

Well, that settles it. To be sure, never in the history of Protestantism has one person complimented another Baptist with anything remotely similar to, "that is a fine family."



If there exists a problem with this attitude, I think it is the other way around.

interesting remarks. Actually, I'm nervous around anyone described as a good Christian. I used to sell real estate for the majority of my working life. When people got in the car and announced they were Christian--look out.
Make a U-ee. People who are truly Christian don't advertise. When they do advertise, you know instictively, you're in for a lot of trouble.

 

[Breetai]

ugh......fast moving thread.....

 

[Breetai]

I wanted to see how you would answer the questions Tom. You didn't give me direct answers at all. You should go into politics .

I said:

Do you pray to Jesus?

You said:

"I absolutely “honour the Son, even as” I “honour the Father.” (John 5:23). I pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ as Jesus Christ taught us too."

In other words, no. No you don't pray to Jesus.


I'm sure that you're well aware that people prayed to Jesus in the Book of Mormon:

"And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God." (3 Nephi 19:18) They kept on praying and Jesus blessed them. He told them to pray on. They did not pray to the Father in the name of Jesus, they prayed directly to Jesus.

Why don't you pray to Jesus?



I said:

Do you honor Him equally with the Father as Jesus said to do in John 5:23?

and

Do you call Jesus your Lord and your God?

You said:

"Of course I believe that the Father is united in a Trinity (just not your Trinity) with the Son, so indirectly I am certain the Son hears when I rejoice in His atoning sacrifice.

and

I do call Jesus Lord and God."

That doesn't sound very equal to me. Another No for number two. On the third question, you didn't say that you call Jesus your Lord and your God. That appears to be true.

And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen. (2 Nephi 31:21)

Huh? Sounds a lot like the trinity that I believe in. It doesn't say one Godhead, or three different gods all working for the same team. It says "one God".

If you honor God the Father, then aren't you honoring the Son and the Holy Ghost equally at the same time as well?

Just before the previous verse in 2 Nephi, is says:

"Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life."

Are the Words of Christ recorded in the Bible?

"The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." (Exodus 3:13-14)

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58)

Did Jesus claim that He is God?

Paul worshipped Jesus on the same level as God. That was before the LDS church would say that the true Church was removed from the earth. Maybe Paul was a heretic.




As far as I can see, your answers contradict both the Book of Mormon and the Bible. Why do you contradict both? Why don't you pray to Jesus as Jesus' deciples did in 3 Nephi 19? That is my point. Is it now invalid in the CoJCoLDS to pray to Jesus as Nephi and the other deciples did after they were baptized? Jesus commanded them to pray to them after their baptisms. Does that happen in the CoJCoJDS?

 

[Theway]

Hello,

question for the LDS while on the topic of tea, water etc. Is it coca cola or pepsi that is now allowed to drink?

I warn in advance <grin>......this could be a setup......

<><

I prefer Mountain Dew myself
Colas or (soft drinks with caffeine) are not banned by the LDS church though their usage have been advised against by church leaders, because of their addictive qualities. There is a lot of confusion by LDS members who think that the reason coffee was banned was because of the caffeine and so everything that has caffeine in it must also be banned, as I understand it this is not true. However if one goes by the spirit of the Word of Wisdom too many Big Macs would be breaking the comandment.

 

[emerald Dragon]

We can wear shorts (we are not supposed to wear short shorts though). We are allowed coca-cola, pepsi, but are asked to avoid anything that can become addicting, like caffeine. the First Presidency has asked that we do this, because we are not to subject our bodies to anything that can possibly remove it from our control.

God Bless,
Emerald Dragon

 

[TOmNossor]

I wanted to see how you would answer the questions Tom. You didn't give me direct answers at all. You should go into politics .

I said:

Do you pray to Jesus?

You said:

"I absolutely “honour the Son, even as” I “honour the Father.” (John 5:23). I pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ as Jesus Christ taught us too."

In other words, no. No you don't pray to Jesus.


I'm sure that you're well aware that people prayed to Jesus in the Book of Mormon:

"And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God." (3 Nephi 19:18) They kept on praying and Jesus blessed them. He told them to pray on. They did not pray to the Father in the name of Jesus, they prayed directly to Jesus.

Why don't you pray to Jesus?



I said:

Do you honor Him equally with the Father as Jesus said to do in John 5:23?

and

Do you call Jesus your Lord and your God?

You said:

"Of course I believe that the Father is united in a Trinity (just not your Trinity) with the Son, so indirectly I am certain the Son hears when I rejoice in His atoning sacrifice.

and

I do call Jesus Lord and God."

That doesn't sound very equal to me. Another No for number two. On the third question, you didn't say that you call Jesus your Lord and your God. That appears to be true.

And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen. (2 Nephi 31:21)

Huh? Sounds a lot like the trinity that I believe in. It doesn't say one Godhead, or three different gods all working for the same team. It says "one God".

If you honor God the Father, then aren't you honoring the Son and the Holy Ghost equally at the same time as well?

Just before the previous verse in 2 Nephi, is says:

"Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life."

Are the Words of Christ recorded in the Bible?

"The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." (Exodus 3:13-14)

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58)

Did Jesus claim that He is God?

Paul worshipped Jesus on the same level as God. That was before the LDS church would say that the true Church was removed from the earth. Maybe Paul was a heretic.




As far as I can see, your answers contradict both the Book of Mormon and the Bible. Why do you contradict both? Why don't you pray to Jesus as Jesus' deciples did in 3 Nephi 19? That is my point. Is it now invalid in the CoJCoLDS to pray to Jesus as Nephi and the other deciples did after they were baptized? Jesus commanded them to pray to them after their baptisms. Does that happen in the CoJCoJDS?

Breetai:

I wanted to see how you would answer the questions Tom. You didn't give me direct answers at all. You should go into politics



TOm:

Actually, I thought I was very up front that I noticed an underlying desire of yours to separate and that I was going to try to not separate. This desire to separate is not the Christianity I see in the Bible.



You misrepresented my words btw. If I was specifically answering question I would have dealt with the questions one by one. You suggested I was doing this, which would seem to indicate that you are not familiar with the Biblical verse you references and I quoted. Otherwise, you would have known that your second question while being dealt with in a group was more clearly answered by my first statement. Did you miss this?



I did not say I did not pray to Jesus. As you pointed out I did not answer directly. I do pray to Jesus. I address the Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ, but since I do believe in a Trinity very similar to Protestant Plantinga’s Trinity I would be praying to Jesus through his indwelling and uniting with the Father.



As you pointed out, the BOM is very Trinitarian. I have known this for quite some time.



It is you who follow the traditions of men when you do not subordinate Jesus Christ to the Father. It was not important for me to show you this, but since it is important to you we can discuss it.



Jesus refers to the Father as his God. Jesus subordinates his will to the will of the Father. The term co-equal was first introduced at Nicea. Before this if and ECF did not fall victim to the Sabellian Heresy, then he would subordinate Jesus Christ to the Father.



Henry Bettenson, The Early Christian Fathers, p.330:
"'subordinationism'... was pre-Nicene orthodoxy."



The Achievement of Orthodoxy in the Fourth Century AD", in Williams, ed., The Making of Orthodoxy, p. 153 (a quote of Richard Hanson):

"Indeed, until Athanasius began writing, every single theologian, East and West, had postulated some form of Subordinationism. It could, about the year 300, have been described as a fixed part of catholic theology."





TOm:

These ECF read the Bible books. These men spoke with those who sat at the feet of the Apostles.

It was Athanasius who redefined the meaning of the Trinity and Augustine who formulated it such as you believe it. Before the new inventions of these men, the subordinate structure that the CoJCoLDS was orthodoxy.

If we must be separate, then you should know that I follow the Bible and the apostles more closely than do you.



Breetai:

And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen. (2 Nephi 31:21)

Huh? Sounds a lot like the trinity that I believe in. It doesn't say one Godhead, or three different gods all working for the same team. It says "one God".



TOm:

Actually, this sounds like the Trinity I believe in to. I assume it does sound like your Trinity as well. This of course is my point, we are really quite close. You find some need to separate, but I do not.



To separate me and my view of the Social Trinity from you and your view of the Augustinian Trinity is to separate all uneducated Christians. The vast majority of whom either believe in Tri-theism or Modalism.

If I described my Trinity and your Trinity to someone who has not studied the Trinity, they would not know which was Catholic Orthodoxy and which was not. Unless I intentionally focused on the differences, they likely wouldn’t see much difference at all.



The gap between what I believe about the nature of God and what you believe about God is radically smaller than the gap between what God is and what either of us think He is. Why do you feel the need to separate yourself in ignorance from me in ignorance? Both of us couldn’t fill a thimble with our knowledge of what God truly is.



Charity, TOm

 

[happyinhisgrace]

happyinhisgrace

at it again.

your discourse on the word of wisdom reminds me quite well of the oh so edifying comment i recieved from you yesterday.

of course the word of wisdom is not ENFORCED by the church, you know that.

Parts of it are inforced, even to the point where you can not get a temple recommend without living it but what is interesting is the parts that are inforced as the WofW (no coffee and tea, no drugs, alchohol, ect.) are not even in the WofW but are referred to as such.

when one is asked whether or not they follow the Word of Wisdom they are being asked to:
SELF EVALUATE

Oh please, you have obviously not had a temple recommend interview.


the Word of Wisdom, as well as the LDS 'dress code' are OUR standards, not yours. i dont appreciate you pointing out all the faults of LDS people.

Oh, because only LDS people have standards, right? Wrong! Christianity had moral standards long before the LDS people came into the picture.

Of course you don't appreciate me pointing out lds faults, heaven forbid you have to acknowlege that Mormons have any.

Grace

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Because we believe it too, Grace.

Is this comment suppose to be sarcastic? Is is suppose to be some sort of table-turner for me? I do not understand your attitude in making this comment.

My "attitude" is simple. I am complete agreeance that it is pride that keeps people from coming to Christ. That human pride that gets in the way of people being willing to fully submit to Christ and hand their lives over to him. It is human nature for mankind to want to be in control of their own lives and will and it takes a "tossing" of that pride to submit to the Will of God and rely on him rather than your own efforts. (your meaning all man)

Grace

 

[Theway]

Oh, because only LDS people have standards, right? Wrong! Christianity had moral standards long before the LDS people came into the picture.


Grace

Sense the LDS believe that we existed before we came here we would have had moral standards before you. See what a silly arguement that is.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

I do not see the validity of this question toward this conversation...

I will kindly refer to two cases where happyinhisgrace makes mention of LDS people not 'living up' to their own standards.

One, is in her recent post on the Word of Wisdom where she point by point lets us know how we are failing.

The other, which was personal to myself, is available for your consideration here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t87716&page=1


I consider her commentary unfair, as we all 'fall short.'

Sunshine, I completely agree, we do all fall short....however it is not the Christian community that believes man can achieve perfection and become gods themselves, it is the LDS community that claims that.

The comment about you "attire" was made because you state that you believe what the LDS church teaches and you embrace and stand firm in it however, you do not "exibt" their constant teaching of "modest dress". For the record, when I go camping, hiking, walking or biking, I wear clothing just like you have on in your picture but I would never post a picture of myself wearing that stuff on a Christian forum, it just isn't appropriate.

I can only assume that you are either hoping to turn the eye of some lds guy on this board or that you don't really think your churches teaching of modesty is important. I am not saying you don't look nice. You are a pretty young lady and you have a cute figure but I just don't see the purpose of a picture like that on a christian forum, especially from one that is trying to make a stand for a church that is so against dressing in such a manner.

Grace

 

[happyinhisgrace]

More than likely Mel Gibson's movie "The Passion of Christ" will get an "R" rating. Will you go see it?

I will....I have read many fabulous reviews on the movie.

Grace

 

[arizona_sunshine]

Oh, because only LDS people have standards, right? Wrong! Christianity had moral standards long before the LDS people came into the picture.

Read my posts. All of them. I am very willing to admit that the LDS people have faults, I say that many times. I always say that.

Do I judge them for it? No. Do I relish in pointing them out? No.

Do not put words in my mouth, grace.

I have had a temple recommend interview. The Word of Wisdom is not 'enforced.'

en·force ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-fôrs, -frs)
tr.v. en·forced, en·forc·ing, en·forc·es
1. To compel observance of or obedience to: enforce a law.
2. To impose (a kind of behavior, for example): enforce military discipline.
3. To give force to; reinforce: “enforces its plea with a description of the pains of hell” (Albert C. Baugh).

Compel, Impose and the pains of Hell are pretty strong words to attach to 'enforce.' I see none of that within the church, especially at 'evaluation interviews,' which I have experienced as nothing but opportunities for self evaluation.

If you have experienced otherwise, I am truly sorry for that.

And no, I am well aware that others have moral standards, and I appreciate them whole-heartedly.

 

[Wrigley]

I will....I have read many fabulous reviews on the movie.

Grace

I looking forward to it too.

 

[Wrigley]

Sunshine, I completely agree, we do all fall short....however it is not the Christian community that believes man can achieve perfection and become gods themselves, it is the LDS community that claims that.


Grace

This was the point I was trying to make yesterday.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Nice post Wrigley.

The Passion is rated R for violence.......violence to Jesus, portrayed during His last 12 hours. Quite graphic in nature, having seen a preview.

<><

Yes, Jesus death was extremely violent. I watched a clip of an inteview with Mel Gibson where he said that he wanted to do the movie as true to life as possible because to many people don't stop to think of exactly what Christ went through to save mankind from their sins. He stated that he felt the dipiction of how it really happened was important to humble people and make them think and I agree with him.

God bless,
Grace

 

[arizona_sunshine]

happyinhisgrace

Sunshine, I completely agree, we do all fall short....however it is not the Christian community that believes man can achieve perfection and become gods themselves, it is the LDS community that claims that.

'Can acheive' are the operative words. Thru Christ, it is possible.

Dont limit the ability of the Atonement.

The comment about you "attire" was made because you state that you believe what the LDS church teaches and you embrace and stand firm in it however, you do not "exibt" their constant teaching of "modest dress". For the record, when I go camping, hiking, walking or biking, I wear clothing just like you have on in your picture but I would never post a picture of myself wearing that stuff on a Christian forum, it just isn't appropriate.

Do not even try to tell me that 'calling me into check' was for my own edification. Your attitude belies your motives quite clearly, grace. And if it were inappropriate, I believe I would have been made aware of that by now. I have not. In fact, the only one who has had a problem with it is yourself. I am glad to hear that you participate in activities such as hiking, biking and what not and, for the record, I would have no problem with you posting a picture of you wearing appropriate attire for the activities. I post this picture out of celebration for the area that I live in, activities I enjoy and because it personalizes my nickname to perfection,

NOT BECAUSE:


I can only assume that you are either hoping to turn the eye of some lds guy on this board or that you don't really think your churches teaching of modesty is important.

Give me a break, grace, you give 'your assumptions' far too much credit.


Modesty is important, but why are we only discussing modesty here on the boards when you have been giving the opportunity to, once again, jump all over a member of the church for not 'living up' to their own standards.

Why is that the only time when it is important for us to discuss modesty on this board?

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Sense the LDS believe that we existed before we came here we would have had moral standards before you. See what a silly arguement that is.

Yes, claiming that man pre-existed before coming to earth is a silly argument...agreed. The Bible says no such thing.

Grace

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Read my posts. All of them. I am very willing to admit that the LDS people have faults, I say that many times. I always say that.

Do I judge them for it? No.

Do not put words in my mouth, grace.

I have had a temple recommend interview. The Word of Wisdom is not 'enforced.'

en·force ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-fôrs, -frs)
tr.v. en·forced, en·forc·ing, en·forc·es
1. To compel observance of or obedience to: enforce a law.
2. To impose (a kind of behavior, for example): enforce military discipline.
3. To give force to; reinforce: “enforces its plea with a description of the pains of hell” (Albert C. Baugh).

Compel, Impose and the pains of Hell are pretty strong words to attach to 'enforce.' I see none of that within the church, especially at 'evaluation interviews,' which I have experienced as nothing but opportunities for self evaluation.

If you have experienced otherwise, I am truly sorry for that.

And no, I am well aware that others have moral standards, and I appreciate them whole-heartedly.

Sunshine, if you think that the question..." Do you obey the WofW?" is not in a temple recommend interview, you are fooling yourself.

Grace

 

[arizona_sunshine]

My "attitude" is simple. I am complete agreeance that it is pride that keeps people from coming to Christ. That human pride that gets in the way of people being willing to fully submit to Christ and hand their lives over to him. It is human nature for mankind to want to be in control of their own lives and will and it takes a "tossing" of that pride to submit to the Will of God and rely on him rather than your own efforts. (your meaning all man)

I agree. I completely agree.

 

[arizona_sunshine]

Sunshine, if you think that the question..." Do you obey the WofW?" is not in a temple recommend interview, you are fooling yourself.

SIGH.

Do you take any time to understand the statements of others beyond your own little assumptions and motives?

I am well aware that the Word of Wisdom question is in the recommend interview. Well aware of that.

That is why I said:

When members are asked if they obey the Word of Wisdom, they are being asked to : SELF EVALUATE.


Does it look like I am unaware that is part of the interview? Does it really look like that? I am sorry that I completely confused and misled you. Sometimes I am lacking in the communication department.

What I disagree with you on is you choice of the word: ENFORCE.

It is absolutely incorrect.