Flood, big, small or not at all???

[Force]

Ocean....

Genetic Diversity?  What exactly do you mean by this......race? what?  And as for the animals, who said the animals didnt mate on the ark or right after?  It is not impossible as you make it seem, I have seen many things done when the factors were against it.

Your the one arguing that creationism world wide floods are not proven....Niether is evolution.  But you are quick to jump the gun saying the earth would need a lot of that.  I know thats not the argument but you cant use that in any way because it is not a proven fact either.

 

 

 

[kaotic]

Originally posted by Force
Ocean....

Genetic Diversity?  What exactly do you mean by this......race? what?  And as for the animals, who said the animals didnt mate on the ark or right after?  It is not impossible as you make it seem, I have seen many things done when the factors were against it.

Your the one arguing that creationism world wide floods are not proven....Niether is evolution.  But you are quick to jump the gun saying the earth would need a lot of that.  I know thats not the argument but you cant use that in any way because it is not a proven fact either.

 

 

Not true, evolution has been proven alots of times, but its people like you that don't believe it.

 

[Force]

When was it proven fact??????????

Please do tell?

You do know what FACT means don't you?

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Originally posted by Force
When was it proven fact??????????

Please do tell?

You do know what FACT means don't you?

Certain aspects of evolution have been observed, in the lab, in the wild and in the historical record. The theory in the theory of evolution is merely tying all those facts together.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Originally posted by LightBearer
This deluge was to be no mere local rainstorm or flood limited to the Euphrates Valley. In that event, God could have simply led Noah’s family and the animals to nearby hills for protection or to another territory. But no! This flood was to be of global proportions. So God had Noah build an ark of preservation, according to the design that He provided.

Unfortunately, "proofs" of a global versus local flood seem to assume the rest of the story (Noah, the Ark, etc) is true. There's no evidence that Noah lived to be 900+ years, there's no evidence of an Ark, there's no evidence Noah took 2 of every animal onto the Ark, and there's no evidence of a world-wide flood.

The only way to believe all this is to take Genesis at face value.

 

[Force]

Thus the word theory, not fact.  It is not proven.

All I am saying is until it is proven as fact you can't exactly justify using it as a fact in an arguement in which you are trying to disprove something.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Originally posted by Force
Ocean....

Genetic Diversity?  What exactly do you mean by this......race? what?  And as for the animals, who said the animals didnt mate on the ark or right after?  It is not impossible as you make it seem, I have seen many things done when the factors were against it.

Ocean's bringing up a point I raised in this thread. The issue is creating an extremely diverse population of wildlife from a very limited selection of animals. Not only do you have to somehow overcome the problem of inbreeding (which, btw, is a very real biological obstacle), but you also have to allow for faster-than-observed rates of genetic evolution. So far, no one has successfully answered those two points.

 

[Force]

If two of EVERY animal was on the ark where are you getting the problem with a whole range of species or whatever thats what I am saying?

Where are you getting a limited number of animals?

 

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Originally posted by Force
Thus the word theory, not fact.  It is not proven.

All I am saying is until it is proven as fact you can't exactly justify using it as a fact in an arguement in which you are trying to disprove something.

No theory in science can ever being taken as 100% fact. That's not what theories are for. Theories are for explaining facts.

Fact: There are dinosaur bones millions of years old (this is provable)
Theory: Where they came from (evolved from earlier life)

Fact: Chimpanzees and humans are extremely similar biologically (again, this is provable)
Theory: Why this is so (we descended from a common ancestor)

 

[kaotic]

Originally posted by Force
When was it proven fact??????????

Please do tell?

You do know what FACT means don't you?

Yes i do, but do you. Dinosours evolved into birds and lizards Ok you can look at birds, ok at one time alot of dinosaurs had winds and feathers, and there is proof that the birds we see today evolved from them.

But hey if you really want proof ok.

ok here is a quote from nasa about the universes evolution,

(Like the Hubble Deep Field, the ACS galaxies contain myriad shapes that are snapshots of galaxies throughout the universe's 13 billion-year evolution) from nasa.gov.


also read this.

http://www.sciencenetlinks.com/lessons.cfm?DocID=94

and for human evolution

http://www.indiana.edu/~origins/
http://www-biol.paisley.ac.uk/courses/Tatner/biomedia/units/monk2.htm
http://www.clarku.edu/~piltdown/map_receptionfav/antiqandevolution.html
http://cognet.mit.edu/MITECS/Entry/audouze
http://hrst.mit.edu/hrs/evolution/public/profiles/zuckerkandl.html


you might not accept this but looks like real scientist have.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Originally posted by Force
If two of EVERY animal was on the ark where are you getting the problem with a whole range of species or whatever thats what I am saying?

Where are you getting a limited number of animals?

The reason I'm limiting the number of animals is because this is what YEC's do (they claim Noah took two of every "kind", not species).

Regardless, even if Noah took two of every species, you still don't have enough animals within that species to overcome the problem of inbreeding and account for genetic diversity. If you don't understand what I'm talking about, read up on some basic biology then come back and try to address those points.

 

[Force]

I obviously know the definition of fact...I give examples you on the other hand still havent given me any...you have given theories.

There are such things as 100% facts in science.....

Look at Gravity (FACT)  Evolution has NOT been proven fact.

And it is not PROVEN that dinosaurs are over millions of years old...

Where do you get that from carbon dating?  Because that has been shown to have flaws in it as well.......

But back to the original point.

If two of EVERY animal was on the ark where are you getting the problem with a whole range of species or whatever thats what I am saying?

Where are you getting a limited number of animals?


 

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Originally posted by Force
Look at Gravity (FACT)

Have you heard of the Theory of Gravity? Seriously.

And it is not PROVEN that dinosaurs are over millions of years old...

Yes. Yes it has.

Where do you get that from carbon dating?  Because that has been shown to have flaws in it as well.......

Carbon Dating is only good for a max about 50000 years. Scientists use various other dating methods. There are limitations within dating methods, but rest assured scientists are quite aware of them and know how to use the methods correctly.

If two of EVERY animal was on the ark where are you getting the problem with a whole range of species or whatever thats what I am saying?

The problem is inbreeding and genetic diversity. If you need to look this stuff up, do a Google search on "inbreeding" and "genetic diversity".

Where are you getting a limited number of animals?

Because some YEC's tell me that. What, you think I'm making it up?

 

[kaotic]

Originally posted by Force
I obviously know the definition of fact...I give examples you on the other hand still havent given me any...you have given theories.

There are such things as 100% facts in science.....

Look at Gravity (FACT)  Evolution has NOT been proven fact.

And it is not PROVEN that dinosaurs are over millions of years old...

Where do you get that from carbon dating?  Because that has been shown to have flaws in it as well.......

But back to the original point.

If two of EVERY animal was on the ark where are you getting the problem with a whole range of species or whatever thats what I am saying?

Where are you getting a limited number of animals?


 

Hmm lets see here, why does alot of christians always say that the dating the scienctist have are wrong. They want everything in there bible to be real, and until proven there way it will not be real. Are you a scienctist probably not. Then you don't know what you are talking about. They test these dating methodus.

 

[kaotic]

And yes Dinosours have been proven millions of years old.

 

[ocean]

Force,

Your "argument" has a logical problem: 2 animals from every species of animal could not fit on the ark. The Bible gives the dimensions for the ark, and it could, in no way, accomodate 800,000+ species of animals.

By the way, don't capitalize ocean.

 

[kaotic]

And how did noah get all the insects that are in the world, there are alot in the jungles and thats the only places they can survive, and there is insects in that are only in caves that are 100+ feet deep, can go on there is no way a world flood could have happened.

 

[ocean]

There is also another problem with the Flood story. How could Noah travel around the earth, to 7 different continents, to get 2 of every species of animal? That's impossible.

 

[kaotic]

yep very impossible since they didn't even know that there was an another part of the world. lol

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Originally posted by seesaw
And how did noah get all the insects that are in the world, there are alot in the jungles and thats the only places they can survive, and there is insects in that are only in caves that are 100+ feet deep, can go on there is no way a world flood could have happened.

Depending on who you talk to, some will say that Noah didn't have to take any insects on board the Ark. Hovind, for example, seems to think that insects could survive the flood by burrowing into the ground or floating on logs