Flexitarian

Rita515

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DanielRB said:
Hi All, :wave:

Anyone here a "flexitarian"? That is, they eat largely a vegetarian diet, but on occasion they'll indulge in meat. I guess that describes my lifestyle, though I'm more "flex" than "terian". ;)

In Christ,

Daniel
I do consider myself a "flexitarian" too. It makes me eat more fruits and veggies :)
 
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Hi All, :wave:

Anyone here a "flexitarian"? That is, they eat largely a vegetarian diet, but on occasion they'll indulge in meat. I guess that describes my lifestyle, though I'm more "flex" than "terian". ;)

In Christ,

Daniel

No, while it's great that you are cutting down on your consumption of rotten carcasses, Flexitarian is just another word for 'too lazy to be a vegetarian.'
In this sense any omnivore is a flexitarian.
 
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DanielRB

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No, while it's great that you are cutting down on your consumption of rotten carcasses, Flexitarian is just another word for 'too lazy to be a vegetarian.'
In this sense any omnivore is a flexitarian.

Uh...

(1) I don't eat rotten carcasses, though I admit to eating dead animals. Not all that is dead is rotten.
(2) It isn't laziness, it's choice.

Acting morally superior about your diet isn't going to advance your cause much, my friend.

Daniel
 
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Yardstick

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cooked meat still rots in your gut.

Why do you choose to not remove animal products from your diet? You seem to acknowledge that their is something wrong with eating animals so why wouldn't you make the jump to a vegetarian diet? Flexatarian just sounds inconsistent.
 
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DanielRB

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Hi Yardstick, :wave:

cooked meat still rots in your gut.

We could begin a scientific debate on if the human intestinal tract is more omnivore or herbivore. However, I'm not really interested in that debate right here. Suffice it to say that since the earliest times (assuming you believe in evolution) humankind has lived as an omnivore. We have evolved to digest both animal and plant tissue. However, I would encourage you--and all of us--to further research this issue.

Why do you choose to not remove animal products from your diet?

Good question. The short answer is, while I feel that eating excessive animal products (in particular, milk products) is unhealthy for the body, complete abstinance is not healthy. Our bodies have evolved to need both animal and plant products, but neither to excess. (On the same note, consumption of wheat and other grains is quite recent in human evolution, and excessive consumption of these is not healthy. As you can see, my original post is quite old. I'm now more of a "paleo-diet" adherent.)

You seem to acknowledge that their is something wrong with eating animals so why wouldn't you make the jump to a vegetarian diet?

My feelings about this issue have developed over the years, and probably will continue to do so. As I struggle with the existence of spirit/god/objective rights, I recognize that, from all measures that we can see, humans and other animals differ only in degree, not in kind. When I'm more orientented towards Christianity, however, I tend to see an "image of God" issue that makes man special. Currently, I remain on the fence...I don't see an objective reason, outside of divine revelation, to give humankind this special status.

Here's how I see it: I make no moral judgments on life consuming life. I do not judge a wolf for eating the deer, or the gorilla for eating the grub. That's what they've evolved/been created to do. If there is an apparent difference with humanity, it's that we have a degree of empathy with the deer and grub, recognizing that this causes suffering for the victim. But that's the way the universe is, neither moral nor immoral. The Christian idea of the fall says that the universe isn't supposed to be that way...but I question the validity of that view. It looks like life consuming life has been the way of our world for millions and millions of years.

But humans, because of their empathy (not that it isn't visible in other creatures--it can be seen in many other carnivorous and omnivorious creatures who nonetheless still eat their vicitims--such as the bonobo, our closest living relative, who may befriend monkies, make them pets and play with them, and later eat them), struggle with this. We don't want to cause suffering because we wouldn't like that suffering caused to us--the golden rule is built into our psychology.

But why? Is it the suffering that is wrong, or death itself? If death is the cessation of existence, why is it so bad? And if nature is built with so much death, and the animal kingdom participates in this cycle of death and life, why does humanity think it alone of all creatures must be "above" it all?

At present, I abhore suffering, but I question why we should abhore death. Pain is, well, painful and should be avoided--we should try not to cause it. But is death, itself, an evil? If so, why is killing and eating plants ok? (They do not suffer--they have no nervous system for suffering--but they do die.)

Of course, this leads to another issue, and that is the morality of intra-species killing (humans killing humans). We have a strong evolutionary drive to preserve our own gene pool, but also a strong evolutionary xenophobia that can drive a lot of behavior to kill other humans. We now believe this to be morally wrong. (But again, is it the killing that is wrong, or the suffering)?

In the end, it's a question of values--but you can't point to something in the universe and say "see, here is an objective reason why killing/causing suffering is wrong". You might point to pragmatic reasons (e.g., don't kill and eat your neighbors, because you might get into trouble), but no objective ones. Of course, if there is a God who has truly revealed that this is wrong, then the question is quite different.

Flexatarian just sounds inconsistent.

It is if you do it out of weakness, because your lust for meat outweighs a moral conviction that killing animals (but not plants) is not good. However, if eating meat does not cause you moral issues (for whatever reason), it can be very consistent.

Daniel
 
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Yardstick

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Hi Yardstick, :wave:



We could begin a scientific debate on if the human intestinal tract is more omnivore or herbivore. However, I'm not really interested in that debate right here. Suffice it to say that since the earliest times (assuming you believe in evolution) humankind has lived as an omnivore. We have evolved to digest both animal and plant tissue. However, I would encourage you--and all of us--to further research this issue.
I'm not particularly interested in what humans ate in the past. While early humans moved from place to place and and lived in huts I'm not about to do this. Rather I'm interested in whats healthy, whats ecologically responsible, and whats moral.


Good question. The short answer is, while I feel that eating excessive animal products (in particular, milk products) is unhealthy for the body, complete abstinance is not healthy. Our bodies have evolved to need both animal and plant products, but neither to excess. (On the same note, consumption of wheat and other grains is quite recent in human evolution, and excessive consumption of these is not healthy. As you can see, my original post is quite old. I'm now more of a "paleo-diet" adherent.)
Your feeling that a complete lack of animal products is unhealthy is not backed by science.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12826028?dopt=Citation

ADA said:
Vegetarians have been reported to have lower body mass indices than non-vegetarians, as well as lower rates of death from ischemic heart disease, lower blood cholesterol levels, lower blood pressure, and lower rates of hypertension, type 2 diabetes, and prostate and colon cancer.

My feelings about this issue have developed over the years, and probably will continue to do so. As I struggle with the existence of spirit/god/objective rights, I recognize that, from all measures that we can see, humans and other animals differ only in degree, not in kind. When I'm more orientented towards Christianity, however, I tend to see an "image of God" issue that makes man special. Currently, I remain on the fence...I don't see an objective reason, outside of divine revelation, to give humankind this special status.
Fair enough, I don't think one is necessary though.

Here's how I see it: I make no moral judgments on life consuming life. I do not judge a wolf for eating the deer, or the gorilla for eating the grub. That's what they've evolved/been created to do. If there is an apparent difference with humanity, it's that we have a degree of empathy with the deer and grub, recognizing that this causes suffering for the victim. But that's the way the universe is, neither moral nor immoral. The Christian idea of the fall says that the universe isn't supposed to be that way...but I question the validity of that view. It looks like life consuming life has been the way of our world for millions and millions of years.
True, and while man is an animal you can't deny that we are able to do more than just empathize with the deer. We can also reason, debate, and develop morals.
But humans, because of their empathy (not that it isn't visible in other creatures--it can be seen in many other carnivorous and omnivorious creatures who nonetheless still eat their vicitims--such as the bonobo, our closest living relative, who may befriend monkies, make them pets and play with them, and later eat them), struggle with this. We don't want to cause suffering because we wouldn't like that suffering caused to us--the golden rule is built into our psychology.

But why? Is it the suffering that is wrong, or death itself? If death is the cessation of existence, why is it so bad? And if nature is built with so much death, and the animal kingdom participates in this cycle of death and life, why does humanity think it alone of all creatures must be "above" it all?
I'm not arguing that death in itself is bad. Clearly suffering should be taken into consideration in this thread, but one should also recognize that sentient beings have a drive to preserve their own life. So even if you manage to kill them without suffering(something which is not cost effective) you still need to wrestle with the fact that you are denying the creature the right to preserve their own life.
At present, I abhore suffering, but I question why we should abhore death. Pain is, well, painful and should be avoided--we should try not to cause it. But is death, itself, an evil? If so, why is killing and eating plants ok? (They do not suffer--they have no nervous system for suffering--but they do die.)
I'm not making an argument that death in and of itself is wrong. The plant does not feel pain, does not suffer, and has no sense of preservation of self.
Of course, this leads to another issue, and that is the morality of intra-species killing (humans killing humans). We have a strong evolutionary drive to preserve our own gene pool, but also a strong evolutionary xenophobia that can drive a lot of behavior to kill other humans. We now believe this to be morally wrong. (But again, is it the killing that is wrong, or the suffering)?
I think its easy to fall into a trap of explaining things by what is natural and what isn't. You should recognize though that something being natural does not dictate whether it is right or wrong. To make such an assertion would be a logical fallacy.
In the end, it's a question of values--but you can't point to something in the universe and say "see, here is an objective reason why killing/causing suffering is wrong". You might point to pragmatic reasons (e.g., don't kill and eat your neighbors, because you might get into trouble), but no objective ones. Of course, if there is a God who has truly revealed that this is wrong, then the question is quite different.
What your arguing for here is subjective morality. Something I think is rather bankrupt. There are plenty of absolute moral codes that do not require a god to be considered valid.


It is if you do it out of weakness, because your lust for meat outweighs a moral conviction that killing animals (but not plants) is not good. However, if eating meat does not cause you moral issues (for whatever reason), it can be very consistent.

Daniel
Yes your right, if your desire to limit animal consumption is not based on morality than it is consistent enough.
 
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DanielRB

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Hi Yardstick, :wave:

I would just like to focus on a few of your comments:

I'm not particularly interested in what humans ate in the past. While early humans moved from place to place and and lived in huts I'm not about to do this. Rather I'm interested in whats healthy, whats ecologically responsible, and whats moral.

My reference to what humans ate in the past is to point out what our biological systems have evolved to process most effectively. A radical change in diet (as with the agricultural revolution about 6-10,000 years ago) is very recent in evolutionary terms. Many people (for example) cannot digest milk products properly--in evolutionary terms, the only milk we evolved to process effectively was human milk.

The question of ecologically responsible and moral is important, too. But I also think human evolutionary realities shouldn't be ignored.

I think its easy to fall into a trap of explaining things by what is natural and what isn't. You should recognize though that something being natural does not dictate whether it is right or wrong. To make such an assertion would be a logical fallacy.

I don't see it as a logical fallacy. If it is a formal logical fallacy, can you show what class of fallacy it is? If it is informal, can you discuss it further?

Morality isn't derived from logic, any more than any other system of values is derived from logic. Values aren't in that realm. I think it's fair to point out logical inconsistencies with stated values and lived values, however.

In order to judge something natural as "right" or "wrong", you must start with a presumption of a moral system that classes these as "right" or "wrong". If there is no "absolute" moral law "out there" (like a God who has a moral judgment), then assigning a moral judgment to natural processes is inherently subjective.

What your arguing for here is subjective morality. Something I think is rather bankrupt. There are plenty of absolute moral codes that do not require a god to be considered valid.

They can be valid, but they have to be recognized as human creations with no other objective reality behind them. They are "subjective" in the sense that they are internal choices and not based on some kind of absolute law like gravity. (And to be picky, even with God a moral system is merely that being's subjective preferences, if he is not in the habit of enforcing such a "law" with the same regularaty as, say, gravity.)

Yes your right, if your desire to limit animal consumption is not based on morality than it is consistent enough.

Agreed.

Daniel
 
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silscr

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lol that's pretty good.

Some of my family member's asked me today if I wanted to eat some KFC for celebrating my mom's Mother's Day day, but I said no. Like i've said in some of the other threads here in the Fitness and Health section, I just am loving this, so I'm going to stick to it, unless I am led not to anymore.

Thank you for your thread :cool:

Hi All, :wave:

Anyone here a "flexitarian"? That is, they eat largely a vegetarian diet, but on occasion they'll indulge in meat. I guess that describes my lifestyle, though I'm more "flex" than "terian". ;)

In Christ,

Daniel
 
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SearcherKris

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Im thinking flexitarian is something I need to try.

I've contemplated going vegitarian, but I do like meat alot and I don't think it is wrong to consume animals. If it were, Jesus would not have eaten fish or fed it to other people.

I just have been making health changes and in the family I live in it is nearly impossible to eat healthier leaner meats on a consistant basis. Much of the meat is very fatty and often fried. I've think about skipping the meat in our meals and just having the veggies and bread when I'm not the one who has cooked or picked out the meat.

I'm also a bit of a germophobe. I hate handling raw meat and the cleanup involved. I have OCD tendencies without it being full blown OCD. Raw meat and blood unnerves me. All I can think about is the bacteria, and I become very upset at the store if the cashier puts raw meat in a bag with other foods; I'm thinking cross contamination.

For these reasons I'm thinking a diet that is more heavily fruit, veggies, and grain would give me peace of mind and a healthier lifestyle.

I don't want to swear off meat altogether though.
 
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Jae Hwa

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I suppose this is me.
I don't consider myself "'too lazy to be a vegetarian.", because that implies I want to be a vetetarian and I do not.

If someone invites me to dinner, and they have prepared for me a lovely meal, I will eat it. It doesn't matter what it is, what matters is that they have put time, money, effort and thought into preparing this meal for me, and it would be selfish to turn my nose up at it because of an ingrediant I do not like, be it meat, or the cheese isn't vegetarian (rennent), or they used Worcestershire sauce (anchovies).
The message I'd be sending my host is that I do not care about them as much as I care about animals/fish, their feelings are less important than the feelings of animals/fish.

what about you?

Perhaps your host spent hours cooking that meal. Went to the super market especially to get the ingrediants. Spent time trying to figure out what meal to make, maybe it's a treasured family recipe or what they consider their "best dish". Maybe you told them ahead of time that you were a vegetarian. They rack their minds trying to think of their best non-meat dish, they scour the internet, recipe books ask friends, looking for ideas on what to make for you. To pay for the food they spent hours working, the money could have been put towards something else, perhaps another meal or something for themselves, but instead they chose to work in order to create a large meal to share with you.

They most likely prepared the meal more cautiously then if they were just making it for themselves, they chop and slice everything just right, tried to use the perfect amount of spices. Even as it cooks they are mindful that it doesn't burn, stiring every so often, checking the oven, watching the time to make sure it comes out just right. They hope that you will like their cooking.

You arrive. The host is a bundle of excited nerves.
It turns out that despite all their best intentions, they have used a non-vegetarian cheese, or gave the sauce a splash of Worcestershire sauce.
Do you eat it anyways?

I do. Not because I am "too lazy to be a vegetarian." but because people are more important to me then animals/fish.

If you don't, that's fine, but that doesn't mean that you are in anyway superior and acting like you are doesn't put you in a favourble light.
 
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I'm struggling to understand the point of this label.

A flexitarian is apparently just a regular omnivore who doesn't eat a lot of meat... and considering you put emphasis on the "flex" part when it comes to you personally, it seems even more meaningless.

Why do you feel the need to create a label for what otherwise appears to be "normal" behaviour?
 
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seashale76

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I came across this label for the first time yesterday. It actually describes most Orthodox Christians. We spend a significant portion of our time (roughly half the year) eating vegan for the proscribed fasts, and the rest of the time we are free to eat what we like (though I still eat very little meat).

So, while I don't understand a label for what amounts to moderation- there are those of us who do fit the label. Most of us Orthodox (well, me anyway) would never be vegan for what seems to be long stretches of time, if not for religious reasons. I don't know about anyone else, but I find eating vegan to be much more difficult than just being vegetarian. I rarely crave meat, but dairy is another thing altogether.
 
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sbvera13

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My wife uses this description. We eat largely vegetarian, mostly because we are poor, I cook from scratch, and raw vegetables are cheap. Being healthier is a great side benefit. She discovered she liked it, and will usually choose vegetarian options when available. I don't go quite as far as she does, but neither of us are against meat in particular and will turn carnivorous for the right occasion. It's really just a priority in taste, instead of the absolute animal abstinence of vegetarianism.
 
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kala83

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I switched over to a diet like myself I really like eating this way i wanted to go fully vegetarian but my poor diet choices in the past make that every difficult to do. Not to mention I have an eating disorder so doing anything to complicated is difficult for me to do.
 
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SearcherKris

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It has been about 4 years since I last posted in this thread. A lot has changed since then.

I have been having kidney problems and animal protein is more difficult on your kidneys than the protein found in veggies, beans and lentil. I still haven't giving up meat altogether, but I have been working toward greatly reducing it for health reasons. It is hard though, living in a society that values eating meat.
 
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