Shemjaza

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Depends on what the conversation is about.
But you won't ever find a person who agrees with common descent AND agrees with that premise. I don't see any jumping off point for a discussion.

I've known Christians who see that kind of comment as a seed that can grow, and BAM some day the atheist wakes up to God. But it won't work as a reasoned debate.
 
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AV1611VET

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Intelligent adults need to even stop trying to engage the petulant that endeavor to argue observed reality with magic and mythology.
What about miracles instead?
 
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AV1611VET

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But you won't ever find a person who agrees with common descent AND agrees with that premise. I don't see any jumping off point for a discussion.
No argument there.
 
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AV1611VET

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Sorry for the late reply, I had some things to attend to.
Intelligent adults need to even stop trying to engage the petulant that endeavor to argue observed reality with magic and mythology. It is just silly. Steven Hawking couldn't convince someone that Dumbledore isn't real if they believed it.
What about miracles instead?
Show me some amputated limbs that were regrown.
When Jesus put Caiphas' ear back on him, after Peter had cut it off, shouldn't that have stopped those who came to arrest Jesus in their tracks?

But it didn't.

So if a limb put right back on someone doesn't [pun] cut it [/pun], what makes you think a limb regrowing will?
 
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Estrid

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The only theory in evolution is common descent. Abiogenesis is a hypothesis but not, technically a part of evolutionary theory, though creationists like to put it there.

Everything else - generally wrapped up in the term 'change in allele frequency over time' - is fact. This includes mutations, natural selection, and so on. You can only argue against it by denying one or more factual observations - often repeatable in a classroom lab.

There are some parts of the theory that are difficult to make sense of. Oddly, I've never met a creationist knowledgeable enough in the subject to point these out.

It would be a great pleasure to encounter one,
but they may not exist.
 
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Estrid

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Are you aware of the following two facts:

  1. Science does not deal with "proof", it simply deals with evidence, which the theory of evolution has in abundance
  2. In science, a theory is the highest level an explanatory model can reach. You cannot get higher than a theory, and evolution is one of the best supported theories in science.
That is something few creationists understand.
 
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Estrid

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Sorry, this doesn't work on many levels. The first being that in origin theory, evidence is more in the eye of the beholder than it is "fact." In an experiment, the researcher must have a control to test against. The problem with a theory such as evolution, there is no control, just the idea of what should be the control. This, in turn, inhibits the ability of evolution to be truely testable. This leads to your assumption that evolution is one of the most best supported theories in science. This is a blatant error. Because of the lack of a control among other things, evolution is only supported by hypotheses and theories, something that does not make it well supported. Plus, one can look at the millions of scientific theories out there and see the vast majority to have much harder evidence then evolution. Science has an abundant amount of the theories that have books worth of testable evidence. Look at stem cell research, tumor serveillence theory, theories surrounding the effect of neurotransmitters on different areas of the body, theories of the effect of drugs on human fetuses, and the list goes on and on. Everyone of these theories has so much more support for them than does evolution. Another thing is that a Law is the highest level you can get to.
Oh dear.

Do us all a favour and at least look up law v theory?
 
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ruthiesea

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The only theory in evolution is common descent. Abiogenesis is a hypothesis but not, technically a part of evolutionary theory, though creationists like to put it there.

Everything else - generally wrapped up in the term 'change in allele frequency over time' - is fact. This includes mutations, natural selection, and so on. You can only argue against it by denying one or more factual observations - often repeatable in a classroom lab.

There are some parts of the theory that are difficult to make sense of. Oddly, I've never met a creationist knowledgeable enough in the subject to point these out.

Sorry, this doesn't work on many levels. The first being that in origin theory, evidence is more in the eye of the beholder than it is "fact." In an experiment, the researcher must have a control to test against. The problem with a theory such as evolution, there is no control, just the idea of what should be the control. This, in turn, inhibits the ability of evolution to be truely testable. This leads to your assumption that evolution is one of the most best supported theories in science. This is a blatant error. Because of the lack of a control among other things, evolution is only supported by hypotheses and theories, something that does not make it well supported. Plus, one can look at the millions of scientific theories out there and see the vast majority to have much harder evidence then evolution. Science has an abundant amount of the theories that have books worth of testable evidence. Look at stem cell research, tumor serveillence theory, theories surrounding the effect of neurotransmitters on different areas of the body, theories of the effect of drugs on human fetuses, and the list goes on and on. Everyone of these theories has so much more support for them than does evolution. Another thing is that a Law is the highest level you can get to.

The Theory of Evolution makes predictions about future findings. That makes it testable. Laws and theories are two different things and sometimes it turns out that laws are not universally applicable. For example, the laws of motion that are used in every day life do not work at speeds approaching the speed of light.
One of the attributes of a theory is that if it is incorrect it can be invalidated (disproven) in whole or in part then must be discarded or changed to include the new data.
Scientists do not try to “prove” theories. That would be a study in frustration. Instead they try to invalidate them. The problem with trying to prove a theory is that we never know what might be discovered tomorrow.
Unlike laws that cover specific phenomena a theory is overarching and covers a broad area. In fact, there is a massive amount of data that supports evolution and nothing that invalidates it.
 
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SkyWriting

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For six and a half years!
I'll read your reply in 2028.
People change. Some here were not even born when this was posted.
So they missed the discussion.
 
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Bungle_Bear

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People change. Some here were not even born when this was posted.
So they missed the discussion.
Some posters may appear to have the intellectual maturity of a 6 year old, but I don't think there are actually any real 6 year olds posting in this forum :oldthumbsup:
 
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AV1611VET

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Some posters may appear to have the intellectual maturity of a 6 year old, but I don't think there are actually any real 6 year olds posting in this forum :oldthumbsup:
I think BEAMISHBOY is the youngest we've had.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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What is the function of Life? What does it accomplish?
At the level of chemistry & physics it's just a complex redox reaction sequence that extends the approach to thermal equilibrium by using low entropy energy sources.

At the cognitive level of agency, purposes, and goals (teleological), its function is to persist, which it accomplishes by evolution (via reproduction with heritable variation).
 
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AV1611VET

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At the level of chemistry & physics it's just a complex redox reaction sequence that extends the approach to thermal equilibrium by using low entropy energy sources.
Wow.

That's the most impressive academic definition of "life" I've ever read!

The most academic definition of "death" I ever read was: "cessation of telomeres."
 
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