Flat or round earth -The final experiment.

[Jipsah]

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That is what you believe. I do not believe that, so he testimony is worthless to me

And also with you. <Laugh>

 

[Jipsah]

The masses who believe the earth is globe & spinning & orbiting the sun who read the Bible must find the scriptures very confusing & contradictory

Not in the least. I learned very early in life that the way people say things often have little or no relation to what they're talking about. They speak of things as they appear, not as they technically are. That's how the Bible is written, because that's how people talk.

Found it out how?
When you know all this then the scriptures make so much more sense.

as I know I did before I found out the truth that the earth is flat & non rotating.

Found out from what, or whom?

I reckon this is the reason why there are so many people who have turned their backs on God & the scriptures.

I'd say quite the opposite. People turn their backs on a religion whose followers spout arrant hogwash and declare it to be literally true because the Bible expresses it in the common vernacular. The average person's reaction to people talking rubbish is that the religion that inspires it is also rubbish. No big surprise, really. So, congratulations, Flatties. If the goal was to persuade folks that Christianity is a religion straight from the looney bin, then you're succeeding admirably

If they could only see, then the truth would really set them free.

A shame your lot isn't as interested in persuading people that God came and walked among us as you are in peddling a ridiculous cosmology that would make no difference even if it was true, which it isn't. So while you fail miserably at convincing folks to accept your Rube Goldberg cosmology, you succeed in convincing them that the Christian faith is a mass of ancient superstitions.

 

[Jipsah]

It is not an admission of a flat earth but a removal of unnecessary what you call “gobbledygook equations” from already complex equations because the earth’s factual rotation & globe shape have negligible impact on those equations.

THis is like the Flattie favorite that no engineer building a road ever make provisions for the curvature of the earth. True enough.
But the fact, easily discernible to anyone who chooses to see, is that roads are designed to follow the terrain on, over, or through which they're going to go. They go over mountains, under rivers, over chasms, around obstacles, in straight stretches, in switchbacks, in cloverleafs, ad infinitum. At no time in the building of a road is the curvature of the earth any more relevant than is the procession of the equinoxes.

 

[Jipsah]

If they could only see, then the truth would really set them free.

Oh yeah, believing the earth is flat is all we need. We can dispense with the Bible altogether, then, can we?

 

[trophy33]

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No both are dealing with truth from The Bible and both are also dealing with what man states.

So The Bible states
Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also.
and
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

So man comes along and states these statements from The Bible are not actually true. The moon is not actually a created light, but a light reflector. Man says this not because any area of The Bible would cause a person to read Genesis 1:16 as saying light reflector. But because men of science state this.

Same way with verses from John which state many times Eternal Life is received by belief in Jesus. But no man comes along and states that is not true man must repent, be baptized, be obedient, etc...

Bible is not an inerrant idol. Salvation issues are not the same thing as the shape of the earth, names of historical figures, places and similar. You must distinguish what is the importance of what you are reading.

 

[The Liturgist]

And also with you. <Laugh>

Don’t you mean “and with Thy spirit?”

As should be evident when it comes to the 1979 BCP I am a Rite I enjoyer.

Although I can say, I find the prose of Rite II the most elegant of any contemporary language BCP adaptation.

 

[d taylor]

Bible is not an inerrant idol. Salvation issues are not the same thing as the shape of the earth, names of historical figures, places and similar. You must distinguish what is the importance of what you are reading.

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The Bible is truth and teaches truth.

 

[trophy33]

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The Bible is truth and teaches truth.

Which version is true:

And Jesus said to them, “The attendants of the bridegroom cannot mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them, can they? (Mt 9:15)
And Jesus said to them, “While the bridegroom is with them, the attendants of the bridegroom cannot fast, can they? (Mk 2:19)
And Jesus said to them, “You cannot make the attendants of the bridegroom fast while the bridegroom is with them, can you? (Lk 5:34)

And there are plenty of such errors. Biblical errors can be divided into:

1. Preservation errors - copy errors, different textual families errors
- the Bible you are holding in your hand is a compilation made by various scholars from many various manuscripts; many places differ greatly
- probably the most known problem is that the NT writers used a different OT that differs from the OT in the majority of Bibles

2. The ambiguity of the original languages and texts
- this is not technically an error, but its an imperfection that leads to many errors in translations and interpretations

3. Internal errors and mistakes, in the "original" text
- can be seen when comparing two gospels side by side - inspiration certainly is not a perfect dictation; basically any fundamentalist view of the Bible can be easily debunked by the Bible itself, when comparing two gospels

4. Canonical problems - there are no clear rules why some writing should be in the Bible or not, its all more or less based upon what the majority used and what some human authority said

 

[David Lamb]

Which version is true:

And Jesus said to them, “The attendants of the bridegroom cannot mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them, can they? (Mt 9:15)
And Jesus said to them, “While the bridegroom is with them, the attendants of the bridegroom cannot fast, can they? (Mk 2:19)
And Jesus said to them, “You cannot make the attendants of the bridegroom fast while the bridegroom is with them, can you? (Lk 5:34)

And there are plenty of such errors. Biblical errors can be divided into:

I don't see the difference between the wording of Matthew, Mark and Luke there as errors. In all three, Jesus is speaking, the bridegroom is still with the attendants, and they cannot be expected to mourn or fast while the bridegroom is with them.

 

[trophy33]

I don't see the difference between the wording of Matthew, Mark and Luke there as errors. In all three, Jesus is speaking, the bridegroom is still with the attendants, and they cannot be expected to mourn or fast while the bridegroom is with them.

But Jesus did not say all three at once. Either only one or none is precise and the rest is corrupted. Sure, theologically not so much difference (one can argue that fasting and mourning can change the meaning), but still far away from word-for-word inerrancy.

Jesus said to the paralytic, “Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.” (Mt 9:2)
Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” (Mk 2:5)
Seeing their faith, He said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven you.” (Lk 5:20)

Did Jesus say "friend" or "son"? Did the paralytic need courage? I can imagine various Sunday preaching based upon these different versions.

 

[d taylor]

Which version is true:

And Jesus said to them, “The attendants of the bridegroom cannot mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them, can they? (Mt 9:15)
And Jesus said to them, “While the bridegroom is with them, the attendants of the bridegroom cannot fast, can they? (Mk 2:19)
And Jesus said to them, “You cannot make the attendants of the bridegroom fast while the bridegroom is with them, can you? (Lk 5:34)

And there are plenty of such errors. Biblical errors can be divided into:

1. Preservation errors - copy errors, different textual families errors
- the Bible you are holding in your hand is a compilation made by various scholars from many various manuscripts; many places differ greatly
- probably the most known problem is that the NT writers used a different OT that differs from the OT in the majority of Bibles

2. The ambiguity of the original languages and texts
- this is not technically an error, but its an imperfection that leads to many errors in translations and interpretations

3. Internal errors and mistakes, in the "original" text
- can be seen when comparing two gospels side by side - inspiration certainly is not a perfect dictation; basically any fundamentalist view of the Bible can be easily debunked by the Bible itself, when comparing two gospels

4. Canonical problems - there are no clear rules why some writing should be in the Bible or not, its all more or less based upon what the majority used and what some human authority said

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I am not claiming that the copies are not without translation problems. This still does not equate to The Bible not being true and teaching truth. But the three verse you posted are not a problem.

One classic example is Job 26:7 science has caused the miss translation of this verse. As man wanted the earth in The Bible to align with what science states is the earth: a floating sphere out in space.

He stretches out the north over empty space;
He hangs the earth on nothing.

But there is no support from The Bible to translate Job 26:7 the way it has been translated

Job 26:7 should read
"He spreadeth out the North over the desolate' place (the abyss of waters), and supporteth the earth upon fastenings."


You must be of the bart ehrman theology group.

 

[prodromos]

One classic example is Job 26:7 science has caused the miss translation of this verse. As man wanted the earth in The Bible to align with what science states is the earth: a floating sphere out in space.

He stretches out the north over empty space;
He hangs the earth on nothing.

But there is no support from The Bible to translate Job 26:7 the way it has been translated

Job 26:7 should read
"He spreadeth out the North over the desolate' place (the abyss of waters), and supporteth the earth upon fastenings."

The Hellenic Jews translated that passage into Greek in the former sense. Are you claiming they didn't know their own language?

 

[Jipsah]

The Hellenic Jews translated that passage into Greek in the former sense. Are you claiming they didn't know their own language?

They didn't speal Jacobean English, so they obviously got it wrong.

 

[Apple Sky]

Canonical problems - there are no clear rules why some writing should be in the Bible or not, its all more or less based upon what the majority used and what some human authority said

Or what they didn't want to become popular like 'The Book of Enoch'. The book of Enoch is very telling when it comes to the cosmos & the Watchers. It tells of how the sun & the moon move.

 

[trophy33]

I am not claiming that the copies are not without translation problems.

Its not a translation problem. The text differs in Greek.

This still does not equate to The Bible not being true and teaching truth. But the three verse you posted are not a problem.

Bible contains errors. Its not an inerrant idol. Its useful for godly life and for the knowledge of Christ. But using it as some dictation from God against for example the globe is nonsense.

 

[trophy33]

Or what they didn't want to become popular like 'The Book of Enoch'. The book of Enoch is very telling when it comes to the cosmos & the Watchers. It tells of how the sun & the moon move.

We do not need to be told that. We know how the Sun and the Moon move - they are in a constant fall, like the Earth is.

And the curvature of space determines the direction of the fall.

If Enoch says something else, he is wrong.

 

[Apple Sky]

We do not need to be told that. We know how the Sun and the Moon move - they are in a constant fall, like the Earth is.

And the curvature of space determines the direction of the fall.

If Enoch says something else, he is wrong.

The sun moves through the North gate to rise in in the East gate. And No Enoch is not wrong.

 

[David Lamb]

But Jesus did not say all three at once. Either only one or none is precise and the rest is corrupted. Sure, theologically not so much difference (one can argue that fasting and mourning can change the meaning), but still far away from word-for-word inerrancy.

Jesus said to the paralytic, “Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.” (Mt 9:2)
Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” (Mk 2:5)
Seeing their faith, He said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven you.” (Lk 5:20)

Did Jesus say "friend" or "son"? Did the paralytic need courage? I can imagine various Sunday preaching based upon these different versions.

I would say that we have to look at the bible as a whole. Yes, there are differences between the gospels, but not contradictions. Some things are mentioned in all four gospels, some in three, some in two, and some only in one.

Take the paralytic: You ask if Jesus said "friend" or "son". In fact most English translations have "man", not "friend" to translate the Greek "anthropos". Surely he was both a man and a son. Did he need courage? Yes, he had a debilitating illness. Did the paralysed man and his friends need faith? Of course. Put the three accounts together, and we have a fuller picture of the event. If the four gospels said exactly the same thing at every point, surely God would have given only one.

 

[trophy33]

The sun moves through the North gate to rise in in the East gate. And No Enoch is not wrong.

Well, that explains... nothing.

 

[trophy33]

I would say that we have to look at the bible as a whole. Yes, there are differences between the gospels, but not contradictions. Some things are mentioned in all four gospels, some in three, some in two, and some only in one.

Take the paralytic: You ask if Jesus said "friend" or "son". In fact most English translations have "man", not "friend" to translate the Greek "anthropos". Surely he was both a man and a son. Did he need courage? Yes, he had a debilitating illness. Did the paralysed man and his friends need faith? Of course. Put the three accounts together, and we have a fuller picture of the event. If the four gospels said exactly the same thing at every point, surely God would have given only one.

These were examples of different/imprecise citations of Jesus, not of logical contradictions. Sure, if you have three imprecise citations, you may get an illusion that you get a fuller picture if you simply join them together, but there is no way to know for certain what was originally said. Did Jesus say "anthropos" or "teknon"?

If you want an example of a contradiction, then:

Mark 5:21-24 indicates that Jairus approaches Jesus while his daughter is still alive and requests healing.
Matthew 9:18 states that Jairus approaches Jesus after his daughter has already died, asking Him to raise her.