Flat Earth

[Job 33:6]

A tent cannot sit over a sphere.

Same root word here, proverbs 8:27

When he established the heavens, I was there; when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,
Proverbs 8:27 ESV

The face of the deep is flat, that's why it's referred to as face, or across the face of or in front of. He drew a circle in front of the deep.

The language only makes sense as a circle.

Scripture says what it says. Faces are flat, the face of the deep is flat. This same language is used in multiple places in scripture. The birds fly across the face of the firmament, in front of, in front of the face of the firmament.

It's flat.

 

[Job 33:6]

In Job 26:10 and Prov. 8:27, chûgh is used with choq, meaning "to inscribe a circle."

He has inscribed a circle on the face of the waters at the boundary between light and darkness.
Job 26:10 ESV

We have to let scripture tell the story. We can't revolutionize scripture every time we make a new scientific discovery. Pretty soon people are going to arguing that scripture teaches that the planet is 4.56 billion years old and that man evolved from archaic apes.

We have to let scripture tell the story. Let it say what it says. Let science be science, let scripture be scripture.

And it doesn't matter what Gill or Barnes or any other Bible commentary of modern times says, because they weren't the original authors of scripture, which is why they disagree. We have to let scripture speak for itself.

 

[d taylor]

Gill:

Isaiah 40:22
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth,.... Or, "the globe (z)" of it; for the earth is spherical or globular: not a flat plain, but round, hung as a ball in the air; here Jehovah sits as the Lord and Sovereign; being the Maker of it, he is above it, orders and directs its motion, and governs all things in it: Kimchi rightly observes, that the heavens are the circle of the earth, which is the centre of them, and around which they are; and so it signifies, that the Lord sits or dwells in the heavens, from whence he beholds the children of men:

To make that sphere work in Isaiah 40 you better squash it flat.

​

 

[essentialsaltes]

And he explains that when he says, "The globular form of the earth was then unknown;

The obvious implication is that, because the people who wrote the passage did not know the earth was globular, those same people wrote a passage that does not describe a spherical earth.

 

[JohnEmmett]

Pretty soon people are going to arguing that scripture teaches that the planet is 4.56 billion years old and that man evolved from archaic apes.

humanity is more ancient than evolution would suggest


Earth is that old… however

 

[Job 33:6]

I was actually surprised to find how much scriptural interpretations have been influenced by modern scientific thought. I used to think that perhaps young earth creationists really did tell the full story of Genesis, the water coming from the oceans and from the sky, flooding a spherical planet.

But eventually, when reading through biologos sources and commentaries such as the Genesis Commentary by Claus Westermann, It became surprisingly evident that scripture says no such thing as what younger earth creationists are proposing.

And it's almost shocking how obvious it is. But it just clarifies on just how poorly people read into scripture, or read ideas or beliefs into scripture. It's awful really.

But it's only when we accept the original language and context and meaning of the Old Testament that we can really get to the value and meaning, purpose and uniqueness of scripture. Genesis was just never meant to be a scientific text, not viewed as such by atheists but likewise Christians shouldn't try to bend it into a scientific text either.

 

[JohnEmmett]

you can't have only religion or only science


because either way the experts are aware of the truth


you must… compromise

 

[Job 33:6]

you can't have only religion or only science


because either way the experts are aware of the truth


you must… compromise

Compromise doesn't require manipulation of either. Assuming this comment is for me.

 

[JohnEmmett]

Compromise doesn't require manipulation of either. Assuming this comment is for me.

I'm merely suggesting a solution to the debate


religion can be partly right


science is partly right… this is certain

 

[ewq1938]

The obvious implication is that, because the people who wrote the passage did not know the earth was globular, those same people wrote a passage that does not describe a spherical earth.

They also did not describe the Earth as flat for the same exact reasons.

 

[ewq1938]

A tent cannot sit over a sphere.

Same root word here, proverbs 8:27

When he established the heavens, I was there; when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,
Proverbs 8:27 ESV

The face of the deep is flat, that's why it's referred to as face, or across the face of or in front of. He drew a circle in front of the deep.

No face is flat and not of the face of the deep which also is not ever flat.

 

[Job 33:6]

No face is flat and not of the face of the deep which also is not ever flat.

Are you proposing that the authors of the OT simply didn't know the shape of the earth despite describing it as a circle, as those drawn with use of a compass?

 

[Job 33:6]

Proverbs 8:27 Hebrew:
Proverbs 8:27 Hebrew Text Analysis

2710 [e] בְּח֥וּקוֹ
bə-ḥū-qōw when He drew Prep-b | V-Qal-Inf | 3m

bə·ḥū·qōw
HEB: שָׁ֣ם אָ֑נִי בְּח֥וּקוֹ ח֝֗וּג עַל־
NAS: I was there, When He inscribed a circle
KJV: the heavens, I [was] there: when he set a compass
INT: was there he inscribed A circle on

 

[ewq1938]

Are you proposing that the authors of the OT simply didn't know the shape of the earth despite describing it as a circle, as those drawn with use of a compass?

They had a compass?

No one could know the shape of the Earth without being able to fly. They couldn't fly. They used a very basic concept of a circle to speak of the Earth and it is a circle, so is the moon and other planets.

 

[Job 33:6]

We can keep going'

ḥōq
Job 14:13
HEB: תָּ֤שִׁ֥ית לִ֖י חֹ֣ק וְתִזְכְּרֵֽנִי׃
NAS: [to You], That You would set a limit for me and remember
KJV: that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember
INT: your wrath set A limit and remember

Job 26:10
HEB: חֹֽק־ חָ֭ג עַל־
KJV: the waters with bounds, until the day
INT: bounds has inscribed on


HEB: ־ חָ֭ג עַל־ פְּנֵי־
NAS: He has inscribed a circle on the surface
KJV: He hath compassed the waters
INT: bounds has inscribed on the surface

ū·ḇam·mə·ḥū·ḡāh
Isaiah 44:13
HEB: יַעֲשֵׂ֙הוּ֙ בַּמַּקְצֻע֔וֹת וּבַמְּחוּגָ֖ה יְתָאֳרֵ֑הוּ וַֽיַּעֲשֵׂ֙הוּ֙
NAS: and outlines it with a compass, and makes
KJV: and he marketh it out with the compass, and maketh
INT: works planes A compass and outlines and makes

Bible Gateway passage: Sirach 43:12-14 - Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition
Sirach 43:12

12 Look upon the rainbow, and bless him that made it: it is very beautiful in its brightness.

13 It encompasseth the heaven about with the circle of its glory, the hands of the most High have displayed it.

Rainbows are circular like circles drawn with a compass. They aren't spheres, they're flat.

 

[Job 33:6]

They had a compass?

No one could know the shape of the Earth without being able to fly. They couldn't fly. They used a very basic concept of a circle to speak of the Earth and it is a circle, so is the moon and other planets.

In this sense, it's not the definition of "circle" that you're rejecting, but rather it would fall back to the word translated as earth.

 

[ewq1938]

In this sense, it's not the definition of "circle" that you're rejecting, but rather it would fall back to the word translated as earth.

I haven't rejected the word circle or Earth. I am rejecting the suggestion that a circle must be flat like a coin.

 

[Job 33:6]

They had a compass?

Yes, they did. Isaiah 44:13
Concordancia Hebreo de Strong: 4230. מְחוּגָה (mechugah) -- compás, un instrumento para, marcando un, círculo, brújulas.
compass
Brown-Driver-Briggs
מְחוּגָה noun feminine circle-instrument, compass, used by carvers of idols וּבַמְּחוּגָה יְתָֽאֳרֵ֑הוּ Isaiah 44:13
Isaiah 44:13
HEB: יַעֲשֵׂ֙הוּ֙ בַּמַּקְצֻע֔וֹת וּבַמְּחוּגָ֖ה יְתָאֳרֵ֑הוּ וַֽיַּעֲשֵׂ֙הוּ֙
NAS: and outlines it with a compass, and makes
KJV: and he marketh it out with the compass, and maketh
INT: works planes A compass and outlines and makes

The author is drawing a comparison between how a carpenter draws circular shapes and how pagans use a circular compass to carve idols, and the author is comparing this with how God has created earth.

All who fashion idols are nothing, and the things they delight in do not profit. Their witnesses neither see nor know, that they may be put to shame.
Isaiah 44:9 ESV

 

[Job 33:6]

I haven't rejected the word circle or Earth. I am rejecting the suggestion that a circle must be flat like a coin.

Well there's a difference between a circle and a sphere. A circle can only be so many shapes, but ultimately it's not a sphere.

When Isaiah describes a canopy and a tent, canopy's and tents, they don't go around spheres. They rest upon a level surface, like when you go camping, the tent sits on flat ground.

This fits right in line with firmament being described as a "dome". And it fits in line with verses on the ends of the earth. It aligns with views of every other culture around as well, including Babylonians, Egyptians, aboriginals, Southeast Asians cultures etc.

And God places the stars in the firmament. Meaning that this object, this flat object, which was not a sphere around them, was directly above them. That in Ezekiel is described like a sea of glass like crystal.

When we think about a circle of the earth, it matches exactly what we would expect the earth to be described as if it were believed to be flat. And this is why the author used the word circle.

 

[Job 33:6]

What's interesting is that Isaiah is describing the same concepts observed in Genesis, Exodus, and Ezekiel.

BDB: only of vault of the heavens חוּג שׁמים התהלך Job 22:14; בְּחֻקֿוֺ חוּג עלֿ תהום ׳פנ Proverbs 8:27; הישֵׁב עַלחֿוּג הארץ Isaiah 40:22.
Ellicott: (22) The circle of the earth—i.e., the vault of heaven over-arching the earth (Job 22:14; Proverbs 8:27).
Cambridge: the circle of the earth] i. e. the horizon, where earth and heaven meet (see Proverbs 8:27), “at the confines of light and darkness” (Job 26:10). The earth with its surrounding ocean is conceived as a flat disc, on which the arch of heaven comes down. The rendering “on the vault of the earth” (see Job 22:14, “vault of heaven,” the same word) is possible, though not so good.
Pulpit Commenatry: Verse 22. - It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth; rather, above the vault of the earth; above the vault of sky which seems to arch over the earth. As grasshoppers; i.e. minute, scarcely visible (comp. Numbers 13:33). That stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain. So in Psalm 104:2, only that here the "curtain" is represented as one of thin gauze. The idea is common to Isaiah with Job (Job 9:8), Jeremiah (Jeremiah 10:12; Jeremiah 51:15), and Zechariah (Zechariah 12:1), and is a favourite one in these later chapters (comp. Isaiah 42:5; Isaiah 44:24; Isaiah 45:12; Isaiah 51:13).
Barnes: The circle of the earth - Or rather, "above" (על ‛al) the circle of the earth. The word rendered 'circle' (חוּג chûg) denotes "a circle, sphere, or arch"; and is applied to the arch or vault of the heavens, in Proverbs 8:27; Job 22:14. The phrase 'circle,' or 'circuit of the earth,' here seems to be used in the same sense as the phrase orbis terrarum by the Latins; not as denoting a sphere, or not as implying that the earth was a globe, but that it was an extended plain surrounded by oceans and mighty waters. The globular form of the earth was then unknown; and the idea is, that God sat above this extended circuit, or circle; and that the vast earth was beneath his feet.

Which also is the same thing observed in ancient cultures:

A flat land with a dome over it. The dome has windows or floodgates which hold back water. The stars are placed by God in the firmament. Birds fly across the face of the firmament. God's throne, or a human being are observed above the firmament etc. These are all references throughout scripture. Like a sea of glass, like crystal, frozen like ice, like sapphire. Again all referenced language straight from scripture.

It paints a very clear picture of exactly what Isaiah was describing when he described God above a canopy or tent that rested above the circle of the earth.