flat earth debate

pgp_protector

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Saw this in a FB Feed dealing with curvature, it's good for showing the scaling I think.

Using a Weather Balloon at 90K Feet high.
Distance to Horizon is about 1,943,040 Feet. (or 368 Miles)
But just how much of an area is that?
It's the red circle on the blue sphere (blue sphere is scaled to the earth's size)
VisibleAreaFrom90000Feet.jpg
 
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Rick Otto

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Saw this in a FB Feed dealing with curvature, it's good for showing the scaling I think.

Using a Weather Balloon at 90K Feet high.
Distance to Horizon is about 1,943,040 Feet. (or 368 Miles)
But just how much of an area is that?
It's the red circle on the blue sphere (blue sphere is scaled to the earth's size)View attachment 213326
That should debunk any photos showing curvature at that altitude, then?
 
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JackRT

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They cannot even explain the movements of the sun, moon and planets without invoking magical thinking. Newton's laws of gravity and motion, which are all independently verified, explain all this with great accuracy.
 
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Shemjaza

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Can any of you flat earthers please explain how the Super Blue Blood Moon occurs on a flat earth?
"It gets bigger and brighter, because God wants it to!"

But you would more likely get something among the lines of: "That is easy to explain! That is so easy to explain that I know you aren't going to take the answer seriously! I'm not even going to bother trying to explain because you aren't actually interested in learning!"
 
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klutedavid

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If we examine our universe there are a number of observations that must be consistently explained:

1. tidal effects on earth


2. moon's near side "locked' to earth

3. phases of the moon

4. retardation of the moon's 'rising'

5. seasons of the earth

6. seasonal 24 hour days and nights in the arctic and antarctic

7. coreolis effects on earth

8. Foucault's pendulum

9. precession of the earth's axis

10. apparent daily rotation of the "fixed stars" about the pole star

11. motion of the "wandering stars" (planets) including retrograde motion

12. earth-moon centre of gravity orbits

13. eclipses of the sun, moon and planets

14. northern and southern lights

15. meteors, asteroids and comets

16. moons and/or rings around other planets

17. there are certainly other effects that I have missed

There is only one self consistent model that explains all of these observations and that is the present cosmology of our solar system. This does not explain why these objects behave as they do, it only provides a very refined model that accounts for all the observed effects.

Now add into this the experimentally verified non-relativistic laws of motion and of gravity, known as Newtonian or classical mechanics, and we now have the why that explains the model in a near perfect manner. It is so successful that it has enabled us to send people into earth and moon orbits, to the moon itself and even return to earth. We have been able to navigate probes to all the planets and beyond. People have stood on our moon and observed our planet rotating in front of them in real time. Any other cosmology finds it necessary to suspend known laws of science, hypothesize supernatural intervention and invoke a conspiracy theory extending over centuries involving tens of millions of people a great many of whom are Christian.

In Old Testament times it is certainly true that they regarded the earth as flat in a three tiered universe --- flat with a sky-dome (the firmament) overhead. Just like the rapture theory and the trinity theory, the flat earth worldview is nowhere stated explicitly but it is alluded to in many places. There are also many old testament and even a few new testament stories that are only to be understood in a flat earth context. Generally this flat earth was regarded as circular but we are in places told that it has four corners and is supported by pillars and that there are storehouses for the snow and hail. Of course this seems very primitive to us today but we must remember that these scriptures come out of a far less sophisticated culture. A culture that was deeply suspicious of anything Gentile. It may well be that some of the educated elite were aware of the Greek notion of a spherical world but with an illiteracy rate of about 90% the common people certainly were not. The scriptures were most likely written with the naivety of the common people in mind and used language that would not stretch their credulity too far.



In New Testament times, the young Christian church had a similar suspicion of paganism. Over a period of several centuries it systematically destroyed all things pagan. Temples, shrines, academies, libraries and universities were pulled down and burned. Their priests, teachers and professors were tortured and executed often in front of bloodthirsty Christian mobs. They destroyed not just spiritual works but any book even the slightest bit tainted by paganism even if it was on astronomy, medicine, engineering, technology, mathematics, geography, history or architecture. This massive loss of the underpinnings of civilization contributed in part to the decline and fall of the Roman Empire and the subsequent thousand years of the Dark Ages. In AD380 after a yet another wave of persecution, the 95 year-old hierophant Nestorius, ended the Eleusinian Mysteries and announced the predominance of mental darkness over the human race. How very ironic and prophetic!



It is little wonder then that the flat earth notion persisted so long and that the bible was used to support it. After all the flat earth was the biblical worldview. Should it concern us that the bible supported this notion? Not at all! We do not need to rush to its defense and use weasel words to somehow prove to ourselves that the bible authors had the same worldview that we do. We must realize that these authors lived in a historical context and that the language and ideas that they used fit that context as well.
Space time is curved, hence the flat earth appears curved, appearances can be deceptive.
 
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Trogdor the Burninator

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They cannot even explain the movements of the sun, moon and planets without invoking magical thinking. Newton's laws of gravity and motion, which are all independently verified, explain all this with great accuracy.

The generally agreed flat earth "map" of the world is hilarious as well in that is was obviously crafted by someone who lives in the Northern hemisphere, so it becomes laughably ridiculous when applied to the Southern hemisphere - like showing that Europe is closer to Australia than South America
 
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Shemjaza

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The generally agreed flat earth "map" of the world is hilarious as well in that is was obviously crafted by someone who lives in the Northern hemisphere, so it becomes laughably ridiculous when applied to the Southern hemisphere - like showing that Europe is closer to Australia than South America
And yet, I've interacted with Australian flat Earth believers.
 
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Ygrene Imref

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I have heard a couple people creating posts about the flat earth theory, can anyone give some opinions on this theory please
i want a different perspective on what people belive

thank you
camila smith <3

I can prove to you mathematically. I did it on here (with work, and plenty explanation,) but it usually gets missed or ignored.

Everyone arguing a flat earth is saying the same thing as people arguing a globe earth. The math is the same.
 
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Rick Otto

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They cannot even explain the movements of the sun, moon and planets without invoking magical thinking. Newton's laws of gravity and motion, which are all independently verified, explain all this with great accuracy.
None of that is true. It may be true to your limited experience, but when you ivoke "they", you stopped knowing what you were talking about.
 
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JackRT

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None of that is true. It may be true to your limited experience, but when you ivoke "they", you stopped knowing what you were talking about.

From my career experience as a physicist and mathematician, it is all true.
 
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JackRT

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The atmosphere rotates with the earth for the most part but there are rotational effects like the Coreolis Force that affects the direction of rotation of cyclonic storms in the northern and southern hemispheres.
 
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Shemjaza

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None of that is true. It may be true to your limited experience, but when you ivoke "they", you stopped knowing what you were talking about.
Earlier in this very thread you endorsed tone as an excuse to avoid answering a straight forward and simple question about the motion of the Sun.
 
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JackRT

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The ancients were doing real mathematics: analysis, [differential] geometry, topology, analysis and number theory.

The ancients were not doing differential geometry since that was first developed in the 18th and 19th centuries. It was not possible till then since it required an understanding of differential and intergral calculus which was developed by Newton in the 17th century.
 
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Ygrene Imref

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The ancients were not doing differential geometry since that was first developed in the 18th and 19th centuries. It was not possible till then since it required an understanding of differential and intergral calculus which was developed by Newton in the 17th century.

That is why i put "differential" in brackets. They were experts in geometry, and many Arabs, Chinese, Greek, Phoenician and Sumerian mathematicians were solving problems in differential geometry before it was known as differential geometry.

1. "Differential" existed before Leibniz/Calculus - because the "differential" is a measure of a change of a function. It is a k-form; the ancients we familiar with differential forms in different nomenclature.

2. Calculus is a few story built upon ancient mathematics already know, but only deciphered in the West between the Dark Ages (in the West,) and the Renaissance. Differential applications to algebra and geometry can (and often are) explained without using differential notation. Algebra (graduate algebra) explains the spread of mathematics in a way in which calculus is a side-show; the fundamentals of uniqueness (for example) are the focus.

3. You actually begin to learn math when you begin to take an analysis course, or an algebra course beyond introduction to linear algebra. Topology, Algebra I & II, Theory, and Analysis are the courses that coalesce the past knowledge of the ancient mathematicians with modernity in practice and interpretation.


This is why the whole argument about a flat/spherical earth is ludicrous to a mathematician. Topologically, both parties are saying the same thing.
 
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