Flat Earth And Christianity

[Astrid]

Forgive me, but the gap between is large between flat Earthers and creationists, which I am not, although there is a trivial metaphysical way to reconcile evolution and creation (which is simply to say that God instantiated the world with pre-evolved lifeforms), although I myself am proud of the fact that the idea of the Big Bang came from a Roman Catholic priest and the first to theorize about black holes was an 18th century Anglican priest. I do respect creationists however in that their movement represents a legitimate backlash against the misapplication of the concept of natural selection by the Eugenics movement. That said, the criminal misuse of science does not invalidate science, which is why I support nuclear power and oppose the use of nuclear weapons as they are presently deployed.

I also take exception to your engaging in this cultural anthropology on a Christian forum, as though the Flat Earth movement was some uniquely Christian issue, when in fact every Christian denomination I am aware of rejects the Flat Earth concept and on the other hand Islam actually teaches it. And there are plenty of Muslim creationists as well. Trying to teach evolution in Afghanistan is not advisable.

A lot to unpack there.
First, it has next to nothing to do with
what i said, so im left wondering.

Next- a good percentage of the flatties go by
what they think the Bible says.
And, like creationists, they sacrifice all integrity
for their - ism. So, yeah. They are peas In a pod.

There's no need to talk " trivial metaphysical"
etc. I know what creationism is.

" take pride" ? Why?
That not all Christians let their religion force
them into intellectual dishonesty ?
Everyone knows they don't all. Maybe not even a majority.


I dont get how you find value to respect in a regressive
anti intellectual, intellectually dishonest - ism (creationism) that falsely conflates Eugenics / nazis
with the theory of evolution.


Their invidious attack on science employs
the exact same falsehood that they decry.


Maybe you could look into your allegiance
a little harder.

You might also go on to notice some other very negative issues with creationism that I didn't mention.

Finally. You ought "take exception" with yourself
for charging me with an offense that you made up.

 

[Astrid]

It is true that, generally speaking, arguing with someone on the Internet is very unlikely to change their mind--I have had relatively few experiences where I argued with someone and the other person just straight up said "yep, you've convinced me I was wrong and you were right." I am, for the record, not counting simple cases of factual correction, in which people are far more likely to accept it.

However, there are other people who may be observing the argument who could be persuaded. Many times, the purpose of answering people's arguments in a public forum (Internet or otherwise) is not to convince them, but to convince anyone who is observing the argument.

Show me when I am wrong and I accept it.
It's kinda called " learning"

 

[The Liturgist]

A lot to unpack there.
First, it has next to nothing to do with
what i said, so im left wondering.

Next- a good percentage of the flatties go by
what they think the Bible says.
And, like creationists, they sacrifice all integrity
for their - ism. So, yeah. They are peas In a pod.

There's no need to talk " trivial metaphysical"
etc. I know what creationism is.

" take pride" ? Why?
That not all Christians let their religion force
them into intellectual dishonesty ?
Everyone knows they don't all. Maybe not even a majority.


I dont get how you find value to respect in a regressive
anti intellectual, intellectually dishonest - ism (creationism) that falsely conflates Eugenics / nazis
with the theory of evolution.


Their invidious attack on science employs
the exact same falsehood that they decry.


Maybe you could look into your allegiance
a little harder.

You might also go on to notice some other very negative issues with creationism that I didn't mention.

Finally. You ought "take exception" with yourself
for charging me with an offense that you made up.

Having read the works of the major proponents of Eugenics, I feel confident in asserting their entire theory is predicated on a misinterpretation of the idea of natural selection.

Furthermore, as I said I have no allegiance to creationists, but it is the case that one can use simple metaphysics, which i described, to reconcile their beliefs with science, provided one is willing to discard the principle of parsimony as expressed by Occam’s Razor. I myself don’t care about this, since it is to a certain extent irrelevant and unknowable, but I cannot condemn a creationist for being unscientific without going into further detail about what they believe. I have met some who are, to be sure, for example, those who deny that evolution existed or who falsely claim that cavemen lived alongside dinosaurs, which is a fabulous fallacious faux pas outside the fantasy of the Flintstones.

But you left my main question unanswered: why make Christians the subject of your “anthropological observations”, when the Muslims officially believe in creationism, and unlike Christianity, believe that Muhammed taught that the world was flat, and this view is made clear in both the Quran and the Hadiths?

 

[Astrid]

Having read the works of the major proponents of Eugenics, I feel confident in asserting their entire theory is predicated on a misinterpretation of the idea of natural selection.

Furthermore, as I said I have no allegiance to creationists, but it is the case that one can use simple metaphysics, which i described, to reconcile their beliefs with science, provided one is willing to discard the principle of parsimony as expressed by Occam’s Razor. I myself don’t care about this, since it is to a certain extent irrelevant and unknowable, but I cannot condemn a creationist for being unscientific without going into further detail about what they believe. I have met some who are, to be sure, for example, those who deny that evolution existed or who falsely claim that cavemen lived alongside dinosaurs, which is a fabulous fallacious faux pas outside the fantasy of the Flintstones.

But you left my main question unanswered: why make Christians the subject of your “anthropological observations”, when the Muslims officially believe in creationism, and unlike Christianity, believe that Muhammed taught that the world was flat, and this view is made clear in both the Quran and the Hadiths?

You have no "allegiance to" creationists but
you respect them.
Yet their 99% focus is simply anti science.
And misunderstanding ToE in exactly the same
way as those rotten eugenics people.

Parsimonious, and metaphysics... Seriously?
It's just ignorant people regurgitating nonsense.
Simple. No 27 cent vocabularianisms needed.

Youve expressed little prob with creos spreading false doctrine and antiscience garbage.

Never mind flintstones. All creationism
is ignorant regressive antiscience.

But you take eexception to my saying so.

"Takikg exception", like I don't know
that what I say of the creationists appies to others.

And you sure don't need to tell me twice
about there being others.

Is it not obvious, also beyond doubt and need
to say so that Christian creationists are who is here,
who make up about half of Americans?

Trot out a moslem creationist for me if you can find one here.

What exactly is your problem with me and what I have
to say.? So far you have not made much sense.

 

[FredVB]

It is not all the same. There are many different categories of creationism, and the creationists holding to those. It is not all denial of science on the level of those claiming the earth is all flat. And the level of certainty is not all the same. Evolution has its good arguments, but I do not think it has the full certainty that knowledge of the earth being in the form of a globe does, really among everyone for hundreds of years, except for the flat earthers who really do go against science, and who have grown in number only since use of the internet was widespread, and it is an indication that people are not getting smarter but going more the other way with internet widely used. Maybe that's a case of devolution. But most Christians, and most creationists, know better than to accept that flat-earthism.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Some folks just come here to deride Christians and stroke their own egos. Don't feed them. Christians are faith people who believe in invisible things. Face it, we are easy to take down. It is like stomping kittens. You do not have to be an intellectual giant to do it—just the desire to do it. Please don't participate in it beyond stating the faith... and then let it go. It is all you can do. Be sheep led to the slaughter. Just take your licks and move on.

 

[Astrid]

Some folks just come here to deride Christians and stroke their own egos. Don't feed them. Christians are faith people who believe in invisible things. Face it, we are easy to take down. It is like stomping kittens. You do not have to be an intellectual giant to do it—just the desire to do it. Please don't participate in it beyond stating the faith... and then let it go. It is all you can do. Be sheep led to the slaughter. Just take your licks and move on.

Are you speaking of me? If so be forthright and say so.

ive No interest in “ deriding Chridtians” and you for your part
have no way of knowing what’s in my mind.

i have great respect for the Christian faith, the ideals it
strives to represent.

Far more respect than demonstrated by those who broadcast
falsehoodd and ignorance to promote their chosen interpretation of the
Bible.

i domt know you. Perhaps you believe, by faith only, that,
say, evolution is false and the flood is real.

Maybe youd rather not know.
Perhaps walking away is all you can do.

Others may find that a memorized, unexamined faith is not
worth anything.

Who you to advise otherwise?

 

[FredVB]

Some folks just come here to deride Christians and stroke their own egos. Don't feed them. Christians are faith people who believe in invisible things. Face it, we are easy to take down. It is like stomping kittens. You do not have to be an intellectual giant to do it—just the desire to do it. Please don't participate in it beyond stating the faith... and then let it go. It is all you can do. Be sheep led to the slaughter. Just take your licks and move on.

Whoever is meant that you are addressing, we can respond to legitimate concerns or questions. We do believe in things invisible, and others dismiss, while really there are invisible things, all along. We see logic others miss, or possibly dismiss. But if they are arrogant and just malign or misrepresent your position, more than once, it is possible to set them on ignore, and it is advisable then, as it is effective for not feeling like you should answer.

Flat earth is a disproven position, even centuries ago by very intelligent men, and now more so then ever. Those who speak for that position, more now with all the internet use, with which there is more misinformation taking in any of those who would look no further, as there is legitimate information on the internet, prefer to dismiss what would go contrary even from any legitimate science to what they will believe, that they hear others do, just from observation with their own eyes alone, and would not even consider using telescopes.

 

[Jipsah]

Next- a good percentage of the flatties go by
what they think the Bible says.

Sad but true. Fortunately they could probably hold their international convention at the community center in Smyrna, Tennessee.

And, like creationists, they sacrifice all integrity
for their - ism.

Foul! No need to sacrifice anything to be a creationist. All it requires is the belief that "in the begnning, God created the heavens and the earth", end statement. It doesn't interfere with a respect for natural science, nor does it require any denial of objective facts. Science attributes creation to a Big Bang (an idea stolen from deists, and long disputed by scientists, btw), while creationism attributes creation to God commanding"Fiat lux!".

So, yeah. They are peas In a pod.

Sometimes. Flatties are generally a subset of creationists, but they represent a microscopic minority of creationists.

I know what creationism is.

I' not al all sure of that, but I was wrong once before.

I dont get how you find value to respect in a regressive anti intellectual, intellectually dishonest - ism (creationism) that falsely conflates Eugenics / naziswith the theory of evolution.

Advocates of eugenics tend to argue in favor in favor of their odious beliefs in Darwinian terms, though, don't they? Gotta keep the "unfit" from reproducing and fouling the gene pool, right?

Their invidious attack on science employs the exact same falsehood that they decry.

I rather like science. Makes all our lives easier, and healthier, and longer, and more productive, doesn't it? But I'm still a nasty creationist.

Maybe you could look into your allegiance
a little harder.

That's OK, I'll play the cards I've been dealt. Yeah, there are some avowed creationists who I devoutly wish weren't, but we have to take the rough with the smooth, don't we?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Some folks just come here to deride Christians and stroke their own egos. Don't feed them. Christians are faith people who believe in invisible things. Face it, we are easy to take down. It is like stomping kittens. You do not have to be an intellectual giant to do it—just the desire to do it. Please don't participate in it beyond stating the faith... and then let it go. It is all you can do. Be sheep led to the slaughter. Just take your licks and move on.

I find that a little weak on fact. It is one thing to "be innocent as doves", but that does not preclude "be[ing] wise as serpents". One of the complaints lodged by some Christians against modern Christendom —a complaint I find valid— is against the mentality, that is even sometimes stated this way: that reasoning is non- or even anti-spiritual. (To me it seems strange that one would use reasoning to show that reasoning is to be avoided). Most Christians also don't seem to realize that they are thinking this way.

Truth is, that if God exists, and if the Gospel is true, then there are logical holes in whatever reasoning is thrown against it. Truth is, too, that usually those holes are easy to spot, being either in premise, or in mindset and whatever uses of words that accompany that mindset.

It's ok to duck to avoid engaging those who wish to decimate you, if you are not prepared to fight them, but there's no need to suppose that they have the logical upper-hand.

 

[FredVB]

I find that a little weak on fact. It is one thing to "be innocent as doves", but that does not preclude "be[ing] wise as serpents". One of the complaints lodged by some Christians against modern Christendom —a complaint I find valid— is against the mentality, that is even sometimes stated this way: that reasoning is non- or even anti-spiritual. (To me it seems strange that one would use reasoning to show that reasoning is to be avoided). Most Christians also don't seem to realize that they are thinking this way.

Truth is, that if God exists, and if the Gospel is true, then there are logical holes in whatever reasoning is thrown against it. Truth is, too, that usually those holes are easy to spot, being either in premise, or in mindset and whatever uses of words that accompany that mindset.

It's ok to duck to avoid engaging those who wish to decimate you, if you are not prepared to fight them, but there's no need to suppose that they have the logical upper-hand.

God exists, while there has to be necessary existence. Logic is not with holes or gaps for that. There would be nothing, as only nothing would come from nothing, so what always exists is existing necessarily and it is not possible for that existence to not exist. And being necessary there is no limit to that existence, and that existence is infinite and eternal and without any partitions or gaps. Being necessary would not be with such arbitrary things that are limiting. That, which causes anything else to exist, is Creator, and the rightly understood as God, showing intelligence without limit in the structure within the creation that would be with design. Since there is provision for us and not everything is against us, God shows benevolence. What is contrary shows flaw that would have come afterward since the original creation that was in the design from God.