Flag burning-free speech or not?

[variant]

I am not comparing myself to anybody.

I agree.

No you don't, you said you would hit people for doing something you didn't like.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

I find that fascinating. My cultural views would call it 'fighting words' in the context you describe!?

"Fighting words" is a term in law, with a specific meaning. Essentially, fighting words are insults that are both personal and likely to cause a violent reaction. It's quite a bit more restrictive than it sounds even then, but the personal element is lacking when someone burns a national symbol in a public demonstration, so how restrictive it is beyond that point is irrelevant.

Tell me what would you call it when someone does so in the context of a public display to get a point across?

A protest. An offensive protest, but one that is legal in the U.S.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

No you don't, you said you would hit people for doing something you didn't like.

I guess you missed that post where I admitted that I probably wouldn't?

 

[SteveNZ]

I don't care what you think about the flag, you have no right to assault people for doing things you find distasteful.

Hi Variant,
I find it pretty amazing that you use the term '..distasteful..'. I am sure other folk would have similar views!?

To myself I see the burning of the US flag like that in the same way those military folk do.

From a non US citizen looking in it honestly comes across more like anarchists wanting to hate and hurt their country..? If this is just my cultural differences in viewing what I see I am sorry. But am still shaking my head going WOW....

 

[variant]

I guess you missed that post where I admitted that I probably wouldn't?

No I read your first post wrong. Sincere apologies.

 

[variant]

Hi Variant,
I find it pretty amazing that you use the term '..distasteful..'. I am sure other folk would have similar views!?

To myself I see the burning of the US flag like that in the same way those military folk do.

From a non US citizen looking in it honestly comes across more like anarchists wanting to hate and hurt their country..? If this is just my cultural differences in viewing what I see I am sorry. But am still shaking my head going WOW....

I don't consider it the best way to protest as, you know, a lot of people died in good faith for this country.

But again, one of our core values is the freedom of speech and expression so that's kind of what they were trying to defend.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

No I read your first post wrong. Sincere apologies.

The very first post definitely mentioned I would punch someone in the face. I guess that is more of an example of how passionate about it. I don't worship the flag, but hold it in high regard as a personal item of great importance. I've been indoctrinated since my youth to hold it with higher regard than regular stuff. Honestly, I've been trying to deprogram it out of my system the last year or so.

People can get violent over the flag. I am not kidding about my friends considering serious harm to you over it. Any sort of flag desecration is the equivalent of someone urinating over a personal item of a deceased relative in outrage. If you burn the flag in front of them, you might as well be burning their home, because that is how they view all flags.

 

[variant]

The very first post definitely mentioned I would punch someone in the face. I guess that is more of an example of how passionate about it. I don't worship the flag, but hold it in high regard as a personal item of great importance. I've been indoctrinated since my youth to hold it with higher regard than regular stuff. Honestly, I've been trying to deprogram it out of my system the last year or so.

Then I did miss the one that said you probably wouldn't.

I am sincere in my admonishment of the use of violence in defense of ones personal views.

People can get violent over the flag. I am not kidding about my friends considering serious harm to you over it. Any sort of flag desecration is the equivalent of someone urinating over a personal item of a deceased relative in outrage. If you burn the flag in front of them, you might as well be burning their home, because that is how they view all flags.

See this is a problem, nationalism isn't what this country was founded on, and certainly not violence in the name of nationalism, freedom and coexistence with people who may disagree with us is.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

Then I did miss the one that said you probably wouldn't.

I am sincere in my admonishment of the use of violence in defense of ones personal views.

See this is a problem, nationalism isn't what this country was founded on, and certainly not violence in the name of nationalism, freedom and coexistence with people who may disagree with us is.

oh trust me.. they're also big pledge of allegiance supporters as well. I pointed out to them that the pledge was created by a socialist, but they won't hear of it.

I spend a good amount of energy trying to debunk they're paranoia.

 

[variant]

oh trust me.. they're also big pledge of allegiance supporters as well. I pointed out to them that the pledge was created by a socialist, but they won't hear of it.

Oddly enough it the Jahovas Witnesses that successfully went to court to sue for their right not to say the Pledge.

I spend a good amount of energy trying to debunk they're paranoia.

Honestly there is probably no use. If people wish to live in fear of those that are different or who disagree with them there is not much to do.

 

[gnomon]

This isnt really a controversial political issue that much these days compared to other topics-but its a legal issue people have different opinions on, so discussing it fits into the topic of politics.

In many countries, like in parts of Europe, its highly illegal-and free speech doesnt protect it.

The US Supreme Court has ruled flag burning is legal based on free speech-in a court case years ago. And I agree with them, despite the fact that I find flag burning highly offensive and disrespectful. But the fact that it personally offends me and I disapprove of it morally, doesnt mean it shouldnt be legal. I do believe it falls under free speech rights.

Anybody disagree?

Legally this issue has already been decided. Texas v. Johnson.

In accordance to actual flag codes it is considered desecration to wear the flag yet so many Americans do such a thing and consider it patriotic. The proper disposal method of a worn out flag is to burn it.

I'm glad our Supreme Court recognized the wisdom of burning the American flag as a form of protest. When the United States entered World War I against the wishes of many Americans and in regards to a draft to send Americans into an unnecessary war such as WWI there were people being oppressed by expressing their opinion to such an outrageous act by our government by desecrating the flag.

Patriotism in a free country such as the United States means exhibiting such displays as flag desecration to speak one's mind. When others attempt to dissuade such action through law they are the ones who are exhibiting themselves as not being true patriots.

For they are the one's stamping out free expression that is enshrined in our Constitution and demanding a more fascist attitude of nationalism that leads only to misery. Just ask the Germans.

Than of course there is the psychological problem of those individuals who would hold the sanctity of a symbol such as the U.S. flag over the physical well being of others in supporting violence against those who would desecrate the flag in protest.

 

[Flashlight]

When I moved into my home there were several old flags left behind. I put them in the trash because that is where old rags go. Symbolism is stupid.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

When I moved into my home there were several old flags left behind. I put them in the trash because that is where old rags go. Symbolism is stupid.

Symbolism isn't the problem. It's one of the things that separates us from lower primates. The problem is when we treat the symbol as though it has become sacred through its signification. Jailing someone for burning a flag or killing someone for burning a Quran are inexcusable, because all the person did was to destroy a piece of cloth or a little bit of paper, ink, glue, and binding. The fact that the thing destroyed has a meaning attached to it doesn't mean that the person who destroyed it did any actual harm.

 

[SteveNZ]

.....The fact that the thing destroyed has a meaning attached to it doesn't mean that the person who destroyed it did any actual harm.

hmmm .......... What about the social harm through the fact that society then loses respect for its own country and this is handed down through generations?

Not unlike that when a society loses respect for the police force it reacts accordingly? Enough folk losing respect for their own country would have awful outcomes!

 

[SepiaAndDust]

hmmm .......... What about the social harm through the fact that society then loses respect for its own country and this is handed down through generations?

Not unlike that when a society loses respect for the police force it reacts accordingly? Enough folk losing respect for their own country would have awful outcomes!

Oddly enough, that doesn't happen when the country deserves respect.

Blindly supporting the country you were born in just because is what breaks a nation.

 

[gnomon]

When I moved into my home there were several old flags left behind. I put them in the trash because that is where old rags go. Symbolism is stupid.

According to the Flag Code you should have burned them. And prostrated yourself before them. And groveled on the ground that you are unworthy ..... okay, I'm making some of this up. But no the burning part.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

Oddly enough, that doesn't happen when the country deserves respect.

Blindly supporting the country you were born in just because is what breaks a nation.

This was pretty much going to be my response. People aren't going to lose respect for a country just because they can burn its flag without being prosecuted. People lose respect for a country when it has done something serious to sever the bond of trust between the people and the government.

I would also add that "social harm" is a standard that can be used to make some pretty terrifying policies, including blasphemy laws like those in Pakistan. With a few exceptions that straddle the line between the socially and materially harmful (like a person walking around in public intoxicated), it's better not to use social harm as a factor in deciding whether a behavior is legal or not.

 

[SteveNZ]

................ it's better not to use social harm as a factor in deciding whether a behavior is legal or not.

What an interesting topic to debate...!?

I will say that things like continually verbally abusing a child (without any physical harm done) is 'social harm' and is criminal in the US.......... That can all be another item to debate somewhere else.

Hmmm ..... Those of us outside of the US see flag burning in public as a symbolic gesture, in a bad way, and we hurt for the country!? Like hurting over a wounded friend.

*Except those who hate the US and they would laugh.... and they can shove..(sorry better not say..)