Flag burning-free speech or not?

[mafwons]

Since it's a legal issue, the Supreme Court precedent on the issue is dispositive. inter alia United States v. Eichman, 496 U.S. 310 (1990).

However, Brandeburg v. Ohio is still good law, so if one were to decide, for example, to burn an American Flag in the National Cemetery during the internment of a fallen service member; such a person may will be charged and convicted of "inciting a riot" or similar crimes.

Down here we have "fighting words" defense. Long story short: a person who says something outrageous in another's presence, the person so offended may commit a "proportional" battery or assault on the offender. So if I were to imply in public that I was the father of your three children, you would be entitled to retaliate with words, threats, and generally non lethal physical attacks of a reactive nature.

So, be careful where you burn flags. It's your First Amendment right, but it's also just begging for a beatdown in some circles.

Yes you may say what you like, that is the right. But hey we know the number one indicator of facism is an unreasonable fixation on national symbols to create hyperpatriotic lapdogs. So in so saying nastiness to the flagburners the imaginary defenders of freedom are defiled. It is a viscious circle, this one.

 

[SteveNZ]

................. However, Brandeburg v. Ohio is still good law, so if one were to decide, for example, to burn an American Flag in the National Cemetery during the internment of a fallen service member; such a person may will be charged and convicted of "inciting a riot" or similar crimes.

......So, be careful where you burn flags. It's your First Amendment right, but it's also just begging for a beatdown in some circles.

Thanks for that,

Hmmm ....... Still as a non American looking on, the public gesture of burning a flag to make a point is pretty sick. Primarily because it has the harmful effect of the Brandeburg vse Ohio case. By doing so for media to share, means the aim is to hurt.

I would place it past free speech. An American citizen is free to hate the US, share that hatred and give insult after insult. Even say the flag should be burned to show ...... whatever it is they wish to show.

Analogy: Not unlike the difference between threatening to smash a neighbours car windows because you are angry and actually doing so.

 

[poolerboy0077]

It's so bizarre how people can get so worked up over symbols. My goodness.

 

[Desk trauma]

Analogy: Not unlike the difference between threatening to smash a neighbours car windows because you are angry and actually doing so.

Your analogy only makes sense if the flag in question is not the property of thoes burning it. Flags are made of cloth and privately owned not woven of American ideas and property of the state.

 

[mafwons]

Your analogy only makes sense if the flag in question is not the property of thoes burning it. Flags are made of cloth and privately owned not woven of American ideas and property of the state.

You are speaking nonsense each flag is lovingly crafted from fibers of george washingtons hair.

 

[stellalunaCW]

You are speaking nonsense each flag is lovingly crafted from fibers of george washingtons hair.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

You are a violent man if you would do that over a worthless piece of material. My condolences on your friends as some of mine suffered the same fate, war is a racket and the flag that it stands for. Not one freedom has been defended in war or by the flag, but burning it soaked in gas and motor oil can defend our freedom everyday.

Believe what you want. I put down the gun and picked up the good book instead. it seems to change the world a lot better than any bullet can. A open hand of friendship is better than a closed fist of contempt.

Your flag burning.. or having it upside down does nothing. If you want to change america. get them to vote on issues or people who want to fix the problems of america. You should be educating and convining your friends that such-n-such an issue is wrong, or that -so-n-so is a bad person with not the people's interest ad heart. But I guess it is easier to just burn a flag than actually do something?

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Free speech as protected by The First Amendment.

There's a video my friend posted on Facebook of a protester waiving an American flag upside down where a Marine comes at him threatening to beat him up and then he takes the flag from the protestor.

My friend (who's in the Navy) who had posted the video was defending the Marine's actions. I told her he was completely in the wrong and that I wished our men and women in uniform were more aware of just what they are actually defending.

Apparently many think they are risking their lives to defend a tri-colored piece of cloth. I believe what the piece of cloth stands for is much more important.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

It's so bizarre how people can get so worked up over symbols. My goodness.

It's a good thing some of us aren't commanded to avoid making false idols.

For the ones that are... Tisk, tisk.

 

[mafwons]

Believe what you want. I put down the gun and picked up the good book instead. it seems to change the world a lot better than any bullet can. A open hand of friendship is better than a closed fist of contempt.

Your flag burning.. or having it upside down does nothing. If you want to change america. get them to vote on issues or people who want to fix the problems of america. You should be educating and convining your friends that such-n-such an issue is wrong, or that -so-n-so is a bad person with not the people's interest ad heart. But I guess it is easier to just burn a flag than actually do something?

Sir I have never burnt a flag , nor do I currently have any intention to, that being said I fully support anyone who feels it is their right to burn the flag in protest or to keep warm if it floats their boat. The run of the mill people in this country have little interest in being educated or in disturbing the status quo because they are afraid, they are afraid for their pension plans and their 2000 sqare foot homes, and for the continued propagation of their insatiable greed. No one really wants change or we would have it. I enjoy waxing philosophical about it as there really is nothingbi can do, most of my family thinks I'm looney tunes bevause I'm no longer a repubulican and therefore must have renounced God as he is the voice behind the republican party, and the few who agree with me are afraid to do so publicly because they would be looney tunes then too.

 

[mafwons]

Free speech as protected by The First Amendment.

There's a video my friend posted on Facebook of a protester waiving an American flag upside down where a Marine comes at him threatening to beat him up and then he takes the flag from the protestor.

My friend (who's in the Navy) who had posted the video was defending the Marine's actions. I told her he was completely in the wrong and that I wished our men and women in uniform were more aware of just what they are actually defending.

Apparently many think they are risking their lives to defend a tri-colored piece of cloth. I believe what the piece of cloth stands for is much more important.

The flag flying upside down isn't even disrespectful it is a sign of distress which this country is in. You do have to excuse the fact it was a marine, they are blunt objects used to batter things down.

 

[SteveNZ]

Your analogy only makes sense if the flag in question is not the property of thoes burning it. Flags are made of cloth and privately owned not woven of American ideas and property of the state.

Thanks for your view desk trauma,
I am not US and my view is to accept the symbol and all it represents (it represents real, living people and past generations) with respect. I do find it odd that both yourself and others break the decision down to what the flag is made of.

I accept that US folk as yourself must decide the matter.....

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

However, Brandeburg v. Ohio is still good law, so if one were to decide, for example, to burn an American Flag in the National Cemetery during the internment of a fallen service member; such a person may will be charged and convicted of "inciting a riot" or similar crimes.

Brandenburg v. Ohio doesn't deal with speech that is just offensive. The intent to cause an "imminent lawless action" has to be there. It applies to the advocacy of immediate and likely criminal actions. Schenck, the predecessor of Brandenburg v. Ohio, also notes that words likely to incite a panic falsely are illegal, but obviously burning a flag doesn't fall under that (some of Schenck has been overturned, but doing that is still illegal).

Down here we have "fighting words" defense. Long story short: a person who says something outrageous in another's presence, the person so offended may commit a "proportional" battery or assault on the offender. So if I were to imply in public that I was the father of your three children, you would be entitled to retaliate with words, threats, and generally non lethal physical attacks of a reactive nature.

The "fighting words" doctrine defines a category of insults that can be made illegal because they don't fall under the protection of the First Ammendment due to their tendency to cause violent reactions, rather than a legal defense for someone who commits a crime. Assault and battery is still illegal. Beyond that, flag burning has explicitly been ruled not to fall under the category of "fighting words".

So, be careful where you burn flags. It's your First Amendment right, but it's also just begging for a beatdown in some circles.

While that may be true, this is a discussion of the legality of flag burning, not whether it's a wise decision in a given context.

 

[SteveNZ]

....... Beyond that, flag burning has explicitly been ruled not to fall under the category of "fighting words".

I find that fascinating. My cultural views would call it 'fighting words' in the context you describe!?

Tell me what would you call it when someone does so in the context of a public display to get a point across?

 

[dogs4thewin]

Exactly. Since this is the proper method of disposing of a damaged flag, it is only the intent that would be illegal, not the act. So, free speech.

However, when it it is done for the purposes of deposing of the flag properly usually this would mean that it is too worn for public display so it COULD be a crime to burn a flag that had not yet reached that point.

 

[SepiaAndDust]

I find that fascinating. My cultural views would call it 'fighting words' in the context you describe!?

Tell me what would you call it when someone does so in the context of a public display to get a point across?

A demonstration or protest. People can burn flags without me having any say in the matter, just like the KKK can have a rally on Main Street without me having any say in the matter.

 

[variant]

Freedom of speech is not freedom of consequences. I have friends that would literally shoot a person who burns a flag.

Edit: Let me further explain. Most veterans hold the american flag in high regards. Up to the same level I would compare a muslim to the koran. Burn the koran in from of a bunch of muslims all you want. Freedom of speech rings true, but don't be surprised if a rock hits you in the head.

I don't care what you think about the flag, you have no right to assault people for doing things you find distasteful.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

I don't care what you think about the flag, you have no right to assault people for doing things you find distasteful.

Well thats good on you. There are people who take the flag very very seriously. If you cannot understand that or care not to isn't my problem. What you should be worried about is that not everyone takes kindly to people burning it. This is the reality of the situation. not a warning or threat of doing it of me to anyone personally. Like my analogy points out. burn a koran and violence might come your way. it seems silly? sure does, but it doesn't change that violence retribution is possible.

Why do they take it so seriously? I don't know. Why do people burn it to begin with if they view it as a piece of cloth? You might as well burn your mothers towels.

 

[variant]

Well thats good on you. There are people who take the flag very very seriously. If you cannot understand that or care not to isn't my problem. What you should be worried about is that not everyone takes kindly to people burning it. This is the reality of the situation. not a warning or threat of doing it of me to anyone personally. Like my analogy points out. burn a koran and violence might come your way. it seems silly? sure does, but it doesn't change that violence retribution is possible.

Why do they take it so seriously? I don't know. Why do people burn it to begin with if they view it as a piece of cloth? You might as well burn your mothers towels.

You're comparing yourself to a religious person that would become violent if insulted?

Violence against those who disagree with you is the tool of the ignorant.

It doesn't show you care, it shows you find your position too weak to defend without hurting someone.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

You're comparing yourself to a religious person that would become violent if insulted?

Violence against those who disagree with you is the tool of the ignorant.

It doesn't show you care, it shows you find your position too weak to defend without hurting someone.

I am not comparing myself to anybody.

I agree.