Flag burning-free speech or not?

[stellalunaCW]

I am not approving of the violence. I am pointing out the consequences of their actions.

If something is legal, being shot for participating in it should never be a consequence just because someone else doesn't like it. Your friends, if they choose to shoot someone, could be murderers, with much worse "consequences" for their actions.

You seem to approve, but maybe I'm misreading the tone of your posts.

 

[SteveNZ]

Burning the flag is an honorable thing to do and folks who think otherwise have the right to that because of the brave men and women who have torched flags throughout history. I hope you can find your way past needing to control people by suggesting obscene laws.

Do you really think it is honourable to deliberately insulting those who fought and died for the freedom of the USA?

I look at it this way .....
The brave folk you identify are 'brave' because they stand against what is wrong and know full well the likely consequences of the action they take.

BUT there are no consequences to burning the USA flag (it is not criminal).

Dishonourable, cowards within the US burn the USA flag in public to make a statement .... so they can laugh at the families and friends of those who died for the US. Now that is obscene.

If it was criminal - Freedom of speech would still allow US folk to criticise their country all they want and threaten that they would burn the flag to make a point. BUT the action itself is pretty harmful and should have consequences attached.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

If it was criminal - Freedom of speech would still allow US folk to criticise their country all they want and threaten that they would burn the flag to make a point. BUT the action itself is pretty harmful and should have consequences attached.

No one is physically harmed when a U.S. flag is burned, at least not by the sole fact of the flag being destroyed disrespectfully. It might be an offensive act, but free speech is intended to protect speech that causes offense, and the court has ruled that acts can be symbolic speech.

 

[Red Fox]

I do not disagree.

I also don't think we should be so attached to a symbol that we get bent out of shape when we perceive it has been disrespected.

Have you ever been to a pro-American rally before, especially one full of God-fearing, patriotic, America-loving Christians? Some of them are borderline lunatics when it comes to their patriotic idol worship of America. It's truly disturbing to watch these kind of people interact with each other. It can even be downright frightening some times, especially when you find yourself a target of their vile hatred if you dare criticize America in their presence. You talk about insanity.

 

[mafwons]

Do you really think it is honourable to deliberately insulting those who fought and died for the freedom of the USA?

I look at it this way .....
The brave folk you identify are 'brave' because they stand against what is wrong and know full well the likely consequences of the action they take.

BUT there are no consequences to burning the USA flag (it is not criminal).

Dishonourable, cowards within the US burn the USA flag in public to make a statement .... so they can laugh at the families and friends of those who died for the US. Now that is obscene.

If it was criminal - Freedom of speech would still allow US folk to criticise their country all they want and threaten that they would burn the flag to make a point. BUT the action itself is pretty harmful and should have consequences attached.

No one has ever faught for the freedoms of the USA. My grandfather was a pow at Hammerstein 2 on the Polish border from 1942-1945 neither he nor anybody I know was any freer for it. Both my father and I faughtbin this most recent abomination of a war in Iraq, guess neither of us nor anyone we know is any freer for it. I honor those who fight for our country by saying our country would be better off without it. Bring home our boys and send the morons who started the war over to fight it. I used to bleed red white and blue until in realized its a racket and the flag is nothing morenthan one of the symbolsnof that racket.

Interestingly enough there are social consequences to burning the flag, having people who don't even understand the nature of the fallacy that is patriotism judging those who can see it, those who have awakened from their slumber.

I laugh at no one who has died in warfare, I grieve for my friends families who lost their loved ones on the battlefield as well as those who could not cope and the war took their lives after they had returned home. I feel sad for all the British families and french and german, rusian, Japanese, korean, Iraqi and so on as well for the losses they have endured in the wars our country has engaged in in its little over 200 year existence. Corprate intrests who have the govenment engage in these wars for their own profit need to be boycotted and we need to put people in government who will mind our own business.

The flag in all this is nothing more than a symbol of unchecked greed which has cost many average joes their lives and limbs. 50 pentagrams on a red white and blue piece of material mean nothing. I could care less if someone wants to burn it, or use it for a toliet rag, people are what matter.

And if all this were not enough we know no one can serve 2 masters, so being beholden to a flag is not in the best interest of anyone who wants a relationship with Christ.

 

[mafwons]

Have you ever been to a pro-American rally before, especially one full of God-fearing, patriotic, America-loving Christians? Some of them are borderline lunatics when it comes to their patriotic idol worship of America. It's truly disturbing to watch these kind of people interact with each other. It can even be downright frightening some times, especially when you find yourself a target of their vile hatred if you dare criticize America in their presence. You talk about insanity.

You speak the truth. It is funny how these folks worship America and believe that somehow is equivelent with worshiping God. America is nothing but a country, and not a particularly great one at that. Patriotism is the first step to unbridled facism.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

Have you ever been to a pro-American rally before, especially one full of God-fearing, patriotic, America-loving Christians? Some of them are borderline lunatics when it comes to their patriotic idol worship of America. It's truly disturbing to watch these kind of people interact with each other. It can even be downright frightening some times, especially when you find yourself a target of their vile hatred if you dare criticize America in their presence. You talk about insanity.

I tend to deliberately avoid these things whenever possible. They make me extremely uncomfortable, actually. Crowds do that in general, but crowds who are in an irrational frenzy over anything make me so nervous that I want to throw up.

 

[mafwons]

I tend to deliberately avoid these things whenever possible. They make me extremely uncomfortable, actually. Crowds do that in general, but crowds who are in an irrational frenzy over anything make me so nervous that I want to throw up.

Crowds are a bummer, crowds with lunatics, well lets not even go there, literally.

 

[Red Fox]

You speak the truth. It is funny how these folks worship America and believe that somehow is equivelent with worshiping God. America is nothing but a country, and not a particularly great one at that. Patriotism is the first step to unbridled facism.

You should see the dirty, threatening looks I get when I don't stand with the crowd when the national anthem is being played. Nasty looks. I'm not putting my hand over my heart and pledging my allegiance to a nation like America or to its flag, no way, no how. I would rather die first.

 

[Red Fox]

I tend to deliberately avoid these things whenever possible. They make me extremely uncomfortable, actually. Crowds do that in general, but crowds who are in an irrational frenzy over anything make me so nervous that I want to throw up.

I deliberately went to these pro-American rallies to protest pro-American rallies and to pretty much protest pro-American anything. So, you can imagine that I and the other NDNs (and a few other minorities) who went there to protest against American imperialism were about as welcome there as dry rot. I was cursed at, spit at, and had rocks thrown at me. The Christian love and charity was truly overwhelming toward us, let me tell you.

Crowds are a bummer, crowds with lunatics, well lets not even go there, literally.

It's been a while since I went to an event like that. The last time was in Guthrie, Oklahoma and in Oklahoma City too during the state centennial in 2007.

 

[mafwons]

You should see the dirty, threatening looks I get when I don't stand with the crowd when the national anthem is being played. Nasty looks. I'm not putting my hand over my heart and pledging my allegiance to a nation like America or to its flag, no way, no how. I would rather die first.

I won't pledge to any nation. One of the craziest things I ever heard was after I had gone to an event, and at the begining of the event they honored vets pledged the flag and played the national anthem. After the event my sister-in-law who had been there asked why I hadn't stood.to be honored, I told her in was not proud of waging war and had learned better than to get kudos for it, she having no idea about anything told me how stupid and ungrateful I was. Lol

 

[mafwons]

I deliberately went to these pro-American rallies to protest pro-American rallies and to pretty much protest pro-American anything. So, you can imagine that I and the other NDNs (and a few other minorities) who went there to protest against American imperialism were as welcome there as dry rot. I was cursed at, spit at, and had rocks thrown at me. The Christian love was truly overwhelming, let me tell you. And some people wonder why NDNs hate America so much or why so many of them despise Christianity as much as they do.

It's been a while since I went to an event like that. The last time was in Guthrie, Oklahoma and in Oklahoma City during the state centennial in 2007.

I am not familiar with what an NDN is. Sorry to be obtuse but if you'd fill me in I would appreciate it.

 

[Red Fox]

I am not familiar with what an NDN is. Sorry to be obtuse but if you'd fill me in I would appreciate it.

Sure. iNDiaN.

 

[Red Fox]

I won't pledge to any nation. One of the craziest things I ever heard was after I had gone to an event, and at the begining of the event they honored vets pledged the flag and played the national anthem. After the event my sister-in-law who had been there asked why I hadn't stood.to be honored, I told her in was not proud of waging war and had learned better than to get kudos for it, she having no idea about anything told me how stupid and ungrateful I was. Lol

Stupid and ungrateful for NOT being a show off?

 

[mafwons]

Sure. iNDiaN.

Got it. Yeah I could see where you might have a few problems with this country.

 

[stellalunaCW]

Have you ever been to a pro-American rally before, especially one full of God-fearing, patriotic, America-loving Christians? Some of them are borderline lunatics when it comes to their patriotic idol worship of America. It's truly disturbing to watch these kind of people interact with each other. It can even be downright frightening some times, especially when you find yourself a target of their vile hatred if you dare criticize America in their presence. You talk about insanity.

No, but I've observed the frenzy you speak of in other places. Not for me, thanks.

 

[poolerboy0077]

BUT the action itself is pretty harmful and should have consequences attached.

What's harmful about it? Hurt feelings?

 

[Red Fox]

The American flag does not deserve to be honored any more than the country it represents.

 

[mafwons]

The American flag does not deserve to be honored any more than the country it represents.

You speak truth.

 

[JohnLocke]

The US Supreme Court has ruled flag burning is legal based on free speech-in a court case years ago. And I agree with them, despite the fact that I find flag burning highly offensive and disrespectful. But the fact that it personally offends me and I disapprove of it morally, doesnt mean it shouldnt be legal. I do believe it falls under free speech rights.

Anybody disagree?

Since it's a legal issue, the Supreme Court precedent on the issue is dispositive. inter alia United States v. Eichman, 496 U.S. 310 (1990).

However, Brandeburg v. Ohio is still good law, so if one were to decide, for example, to burn an American Flag in the National Cemetery during the internment of a fallen service member; such a person may will be charged and convicted of "inciting a riot" or similar crimes.

Down here we have "fighting words" defense. Long story short: a person who says something outrageous in another's presence, the person so offended may commit a "proportional" battery or assault on the offender. So if I were to imply in public that I was the father of your three children, you would be entitled to retaliate with words, threats, and generally non lethal physical attacks of a reactive nature.

So, be careful where you burn flags. It's your First Amendment right, but it's also just begging for a beatdown in some circles.