Fixing a hole where the rain gets in ...

[Xeno.of.athens]

In CF I've come across a number of Protestants who are convinced that Catholics teach and believe that Protestants are not Christians and are heading for hell.

I want to fix that hole in their thinking.

Protestants are Christians, at least most would be, I am sure. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches this in these paragraphs.

CCC 818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

CCC 819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."

 

[All Becomes New]

Doesn't that contradict the words that more or less say, "Those who believe in being saved by faith alone are an anathema."?

Because that was said by the Vatican. Now, maybe the Catholic Church has changed its stance. But that presents its own problems.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Doesn't that contradict the words that more or less say, "Those who believe in being saved by faith alone are an anathema."?

Because that was said by the Vatican. Now, maybe the Catholic Church has changed its stance. But that presents its own problems.

Do you really think that "faith alone" without any good works, without any sign of conversion to Christ, without the fruit of the Spirit, is the panacea that saves you totally independent of any graces God works in your life?

By the way The Catechism of the Catholic Church is published by the Vatican. so paragraphs 818 and 819 were written by people in the Vatican under the supervision of Cardinal Ratzinger who later became Pope Benedict XVI.

 

[All Becomes New]

Do you really think that "faith alone" without any good works, without any sign of conversion to Christ, without the fruit of the Spirit, is the panacea that saves you totally independent of any graces God works in your life?

By the way The Catechism of the Catholic Church is published by the Vatican. so paragraphs 818 and 819 were written by people in the Vatican under the supervision of Cardinal Ratzinger who later became Pope Benedict XVI.

I think it is possible to be saved without any evidence of good works, yes. There are a couple of examples in the Bible of this, one of which is the theif on the cross. I believe there is also an example of a hypothetical man in one of the Corinthians who has no good works but is still saved.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I think it is possible to be saved without any evidence of good works, yes. There are a couple of examples in the Bible of this, one of which is the theif on the cross. I believe there is also an example of a hypothetical man in one of the Corinthians who has no good works but is still saved.

Didn't the thief both rebuke the other thief for mocking Christ and didn't he confess faith in Christ and ask to be remembered by Christ when Christ came into his kingdom?

Have a watch of this video, it explains why Catholics teach that Protestants are , generally, saved.

 

[BobRyan]

In CF I've come across a number of Protestants who are convinced that Catholics teach and believe that Protestants are not Christians and are heading for hell.

I want to fix that hole in their thinking.

Protestants are Christians, at least most would be, I am sure. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches this in these paragraphs.

CCC 818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

CCC 819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."

I have never thought that modern Catholics think non-Catholics are lost.

I applaud your thread, this topic and the spirit of your statements.

Catholic doctrine teaches that salvation comes through the New Covenant -- (which of course most non-Catholics would agree with). And Catholic teaching states that the New Covenant is only available in the Catholic mass (which most non-catholics wold reject) as the normal means of grace.

But the Catholic church has come up with some idea for salvation outside of the New Covenant (which most non-Catholics would say that no such thing exists). As I understand it - Catholic doctrine calls this "prevenient grace". So no doubt the current view is that non-Catholics are indeed saved. As for what that means about time-in-purgatory for non-Catholics that never do anything at all with indulgences nor have family members that in any way participate in them... I suppose that is another topic.

But I am fairly certain that prior to Vatican II - the doctrine of the form "Extra ecclesiam nulla salus " was very clearly "no salvation" outside the Catholic church to such an extent that "protesting" groups were not simply "disagreed with" but property was seized children taken, lives lost etc.
Certainly supposedly infallible ecumenical Catholic Councils like "Lateran IV" that decreed "The extermination of heretics" - had to have a very non-ambigous view of "Extra ecclesiam nulla salus " (likely not at all in line with some of the Vatican II positions)

There was (and perhaps still is) the "doctrine of discovery" -
Catholic 101: The Doctrine of Discovery - The Jesuit Post

"Undoubtedly, most Catholic nuns, brothers, and priests who ran these schools had good intentions, but the overall aim of these schools undercut the Gospel message, and ironically, even the long-standing Catholic position that the parents are the primary persons responsible for making decisions about the education of their children. The boarding schools came into the spotlight in the media sparked by the recent discovery of hundreds of unmarked graves at one of these residential schools. Unmarked graves were discovered at several other boarding schools in the past. During Pope Francis’ visit, a large sign was displayed that read, “Rescind the Doctrine of Discovery.” This has prompted many to ask: What is this doctrine? Does the Catholic Church have such a teaching?"​

​

"While the Church has no formal doctrine by the name of the “Doctrine of Discovery”, it does have documents (called papal “bulls”) that were issued by popes (mostly) in the 1400s dealing with European exploration of lands beyond Europe’s borders. The most well-known of these bulls mediated the dispute between Spain and Portugal over which areas of the globe were open to each for exploration and “discovery” of new lands. The pope assigned a certain portion of the world to Spain and another to Portugal referred to as the “papal donations”. The papal bulls that in which these “donations” are articulated are the roots that many today point to as the very foundation of the “Doctrine of Discovery.” This doctrine is completed – in the view of those naming it – when it was referenced in the laws of various countries when they dealt with property law."​

The above statement raises two questions -

1. If there is no "Doctrine of Discovery" why didn't Pope Francis respond "we have no such doctrine to be rescinded. That is not our doctrine"?? Seems like a lot of bad press was generated for no other reason than a whim that such a simple resolution was at hand but simply was cast aside.

2. How is it that both Catholics and those claiming to be the victim of these events in history for which the Catholic leaders are now appologizing all seem to know about "The Doctrine of Discovery" and that it relates to those very sad events in history -- if indeed they think that no such doctrine exists??

 

[BobRyan]

I think it is possible to be saved without any evidence of good works, yes.

Do you think Jesus was mistaken in Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them"?

There are a couple of examples in the Bible of this, one of which is the thief on the cross. I believe there is also an example of a hypothetical man in one of the Corinthians who has no good works but is still saved.

1. That thief boldly testified about the sinlessness of Christ while Christ's own followers only lamented him and his enemies insulted and cursed him.
2. That thief placed his faith in Christ as a bold testimony to the Savior - "before men" . Jesus said in Matt 10 if we confess Christ before men - He will confess our place as His child before the Father and the angels..

The case for the thief having no works... no fruit showing that the New Birth, Good tree, New Creation had taken place - is not a very strong one.

 

[All Becomes New]

Didn't the thief both rebuke the other thief for mocking Christ and didn't he confess faith in Christ and ask to be remembered by Christ when Christ came into his kingdom?

Hence why there is still this verse that shows a man who has no works will still be saved.

"If anyone’s work is burned up, he will experience loss, but he himself will be saved—but only as through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:15)

Have a watch of this video, it explains why Catholics teach that Protestants are , generally, saved.

Don't have time to watch this, sorry.

 

[Mark Quayle]

In CF I've come across a number of Protestants who are convinced that Catholics teach and believe that Protestants are not Christians and are heading for hell.

I want to fix that hole in their thinking.

Protestants are Christians, at least most would be, I am sure. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches this in these paragraphs.

CCC 818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

CCC 819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."

Very big of them to allow that others might also be Christians...

Sounds almost like some Baptists I know, who seem to think, for one example, that if there are no baptist missionaries in a particular country, it is therefore without the gospel.

 

[RileyG]

Yes, they're Christian. They are our "separated brethren."

 

[Mark Quayle]

Yes, they're Christian. They are our "separated brethren."

So, Catholicism is the default...? Everything else falls short?

 

[All Becomes New]

Have a watch of this video, it explains why Catholics teach that Protestants are , generally, saved.

I just watched this. I think there are errors in this. This is likely because they are biased towards a certain perspective and are only giving their side of the story. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. The Gospels show Christ in a favorable light. Bias is unavoidable and it is better to admit you are biased and say what you are going to say despite that rather than saying you are not biased (when we all are).

One problem though: They admit the doctrine on certain things has changed. So this just demonstrates what we already clearly know by common sense: That the Catholic Church changes its doctrines sometimes for poor reasons and her judgment seems to be based on sentimentalities rather than the Truth as the bedrock for decision-making.

"'You nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many other similar things.'" (Mark 7:13)

 

[Lost4words]

The thief on the cross was in no position to do any good 'physical' works except by his words of faith in Jesus. These words by him were indeed works.

 

[Lost4words]

I just watched this. I think there are errors in this. This is likely because they are biased towards a certain perspective and are only giving their side of the story. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. The Gospels show Christ in a favorable light. Bias is unavoidable and it is better to admit you are biased and say what you are going to say despite that rather than saying you are not biased (when we all are).

One problem though: They admit the doctrine on certain things has changed. So this just demonstrates what we already clearly know by common sense: That the Catholic Church changes its doctrines sometimes for poor reasons and her judgment seems to be based on sentimentalities rather than the Truth as the bedrock for decision-making.

"'You nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many other similar things.'" (Mark 7:13)

2 Thessalonians 2:15
​

15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

 

[All Becomes New]

2 Thessalonians 2:15​

​

15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

Yeah. But Paul's tradition didn't change which is even implicit in the very text you are using. He explains elsewhere:

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, a curse be on him!" (Galatians 1:8)

Because of this, tradition should not change. It does, which is why there are so many denominations. But collectively, I believe this is Christ's way of filling "all in all."

 

[Lost4words]

Yeah. But Paul's tradition didn't change which is even implicit in the very text you are using. He explains elsewhere:

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, a curse be on him!" (Galatians 1:8)

Because of this, tradition should not change. It does, which is why there are so many denominations. But collectively, I believe this is Christ's way of filling "all in all."

But, things do change. We are human at the end of the day.

Core teachings never change though.

Even God changed His mind on some things!

God bless you my friend..

 

[All Becomes New]

Even God changed His mind on some things!

That is very controversial. We do know His character never changes though.

 

[Lost4words]

That is very controversial. We do know His character never changes though.

Maybe but, He did change His mind on some things.

 

[All Becomes New]

Maybe but, He did change His mind on some things.

Demonstrate that. If you are talking about Jeremiah, then you would also have to be an Open Theist, which makes God time-bound which is not really a prospect I like much.

Thomas Aquinas was pretty clear that God does not change, so you are not disagreeing with me, but with him.

 

[FireDragon76]

Didn't the thief both rebuke the other thief for mocking Christ and didn't he confess faith in Christ and ask to be remembered by Christ when Christ came into his kingdom?

Have a watch of this video, it explains why Catholics teach that Protestants are , generally, saved.

That's not what Protestants mean by a "good work".

As the joint statement of the Lutheran World Federation and the Vatican puts it, justification by faith doesn't exclude our personal involvement in believing (point #21)

https://www.lutheranworld.org/sites/default/files/Joint%20Declaration%20on%20the%20Doctrine%20of%20Justification.pdf