Fixing a hole where the rain gets in ...

BobRyan · Aug 29, 2023

Jesse Dornfeld said:
It just means God makes mistakes. That's not how I see God.

And why are you talking about Calvinism? I'm not a Calvinist.

Those who blame God for what man does - do not understand God. They think God programs man to do what he does so that God can know the future like a man would have to do so a man could know the future.

Those who think God needs to be ignorant about the future for man to have free will and Jer 18 to be true - don't understand God.

That is not the confusing part for me.

the confusing part is where we ask -- "what does any of this have to do with the OP"?

Xeno.of.athens said:
In CF I've come across a number of Protestants who are convinced that Catholics teach and believe that Protestants are not Christians and are heading for hell.

Xeno.of.athens · Aug 29, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
People that proselytize frequently misrepresent their religion and aren't honest about counting the cost.

Agreed, I do not like proselytist works nor the message.

I do wonder why there would be a cost if one were to decide to change from protestant to Catholic, or vice versa. But I do know that some who swap from one to the other become very active and very keen proselytiser.

Xeno.of.athens · Aug 29, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
I know Catholics probably think that's a loving to say, but it sounds belittling.

It isn't loving nor belittling in my thinking; it's just descriptive and accurate. A protestant is my brother/sister but we are separated.

FireDragon76 · Aug 29, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
Agreed, I do not like proselytist works nor the message.

I do wonder why there would be a cost if one were to decide to change from protestant to Catholic, or vice versa. But I do know that some who swap from one to the other become very active and very keen proselytiser.

Of course there is a cost. Potential loss of a church community one is established in, having to live under a new set of religious obligations. Those are not free.

Xeno.of.athens · Aug 29, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
Of course there is a cost. Potential loss of a church community one is established in, having to live under a new set of religious obligations. Those are not free.

Changes are a cost I guess, but for me the changes were welcome and the new community is warm and friendly for the most part; and I never separated from any of my friends who are atheist or protestant. But I have been shunned by a few protestants because I am now a Catholic. But even though that is a cost it is not one that is a natural and normal outcome of the change, it is an abnormal reaction that only a few choose to apply.

FireDragon76 · Aug 29, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
Changes are a cost I guess, but for me the changes were welcome and the new community is wonderful; and I never separated from any of my friends who are atheist or protestant. But I have been shunned by a few protestants because I am now a Catholic. But even though that is a cost it is not one that is a natural and normal outcome of the change, it is an abnormal reaction that only a few choose to apply.

Some Protestants value their religious community alot. Your average American Evangelical that goes to a mega church isn't on the same page.

I left a Lutheran religious community, but it was not an easy thing to do. Not something I did casually.

ozso · Aug 29, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
I know Catholics probably think that's a loving to say, but it sounds belittling.

I would hope that Catholics do not generally consider proselytism to be ethical behavior. I know Protestant churches I affiliate with do not consider proselytism of Catholics to be ethical.

I can say from experience that proselytism is quite damaging spiritually. People that proselytize frequently misrepresent their religion and aren't honest about counting the cost. Instead of speaking truthfully about their faith, a proselytist tries to do a hard sell on their religion through inducements and misrepresentation.

I have a feeling I experienced some of that while listening to Staples.

eleos1954 · Aug 29, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
In CF I've come across a number of Protestants who are convinced that Catholics teach and believe that Protestants are not Christians and are heading for hell.

I want to fix that hole in their thinking.

Protestants are Christians, at least most would be, I am sure. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches this in these paragraphs.

CCC 818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

CCC 819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."

... fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church.

It has been entrusted to Jesus alone. It's not "catholic unity" .... it's unity with Christ ... and that is outside of any earthly church organization ... it is ones personal relationship with the Lord. Salvation is through Christ alone .... not any earthly church system.

FireDragon76 · Aug 29, 2023

Ordinary Christian said:
I have a feeling I experienced some of that while listening to Staples.

It's been a while since I interacted with them, so I can't say. Arguing your religion is better than another religion, in certain contexts, could be considered proselytism.

The definition of proselytism according to the World Council of Churches. This definition is generally agreed by Catholics, as well:

19. Proselytism as described in this document stands in opposition to all ecumenical effort. It includes certain activities which often aim at having people change their church affiliation and which we believe must be avoided, such as the following:

making unjust or uncharitable references to other churches' beliefs and practices and even ridiculing them;

comparing two Christian communities by emphasizing the achievements and ideals of one, and the weaknesses and practical problems of the other;

employing any kind of physical violence, moral compulsion and psychological pressure e.g. the use of certain advertising techniques in mass media that might bring undue pressure on readers/viewers;

using political, social and economic power as a means of winning new members for one's own church;

extending explicit or implicit offers of education, health care or material inducements or using financial resources with the intent of making converts;

manipulative attitudes and practices that exploit people's needs, weaknesses or lack of education especially in situations of distress, and fail to respect their freedom and human dignity.

Xeno.of.athens · Aug 29, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
It's been a while since I interacted with them, so I can't say. Arguing your religion is better than another religion, in certain contexts, could be considered proselytism.

The definition of proselytism according to the World Council of Churches. This definition is generally agreed by Catholics, as well:

By that definition a lot of CF threads are attempts at proselytism.

FireDragon76 · Aug 29, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
By that definition a lot of CF threads are attempts at proselytism.

That seems to be the case.

BobRyan · Aug 29, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
Very big of them to allow that others might also be Christians...

Sounds almost like some Baptists I know, who seem to think, for one example, that if there are no baptist missionaries in a particular country, it is therefore without the gospel.

hmmmm -- as someone who is NOT Baptist -- that opens the door to a few questions... since you are comparing Baptist history to Catholic history --

1. Do the Baptists have any so-called infallible ecumenical councils calling for a LATERAN IV style "extermination of heretics" when it comes to Catholics??

2. Do the Baptists have anything like the "doctrine of discovery"??
3. Do the Baptists have a history of banning the Bible in the language of the people for entire nations?

I need to hear more about those Baptists I guess to see if your comparison above is accurate/complete

FireDragon76 · Aug 29, 2023

BobRyan said:
Do the Baptists have any so-called infallible ecumenical councils calling for a LATERAN IV style "extermination of heretics" when it comes to Catholics??

Do the Baptists have anything like the "doctrine of discovery"??
Do the Baptists have a history of banning the Bible in the language of the people for entire nations?

I need to hear more about those Baptists I guess.

Speaking of proselytism, see #2 on the above definition...

BobRyan · Aug 29, 2023

Markie Boy said:
As far as the topic at hand - the Council of Florence is so at odds with Vatican 2 teaching I can't see an honest way of showing continuity.

Florence is clear - if you are not Catholic you will not be saved.

And given the Vatican IV command to "exterminate heretics" as noted in this post -- #6

It is easy to see why some might get the impression that a pre-Vatican II Catholic church was most certainly teaching that non-Catholics are not saved.

Xeno.of.athens · Aug 29, 2023

Catholics can also come home, I just watched a story told by a man who was from a Catholic family who eventually came home to God in the Catholic Church. It was interesting and a little heart warming.

BobRyan · Aug 29, 2023

BobRyan said:
Mark Quayle said:

Very big of them to allow that others might also be Christians...

Sounds almost like some Baptists I know, who seem to think, for one example, that if there are no baptist missionaries in a particular country, it is therefore without the gospel.

Click to expand...

hmmmm -- as someone who is NOT Baptist -- that opens the door to a few questions... since you are comparing Baptist history to Catholic history --

1. Do the Baptists have any so-called infallible ecumenical councils calling for a LATERAN IV style "extermination of heretics" when it comes to Catholics??

2. Do the Baptists have anything like the "doctrine of discovery"??
3. Do the Baptists have a history of banning the Bible in the language of the people for entire nations?

I need to hear more about those Baptists I guess to see if your comparison above is accurate/complete

FireDragon76 said:
Speaking of proselytism, see #2 on the above definition...

ok that is a good point - #2 in that list does speak very loud and clear about a pro-proselytism POV.

The Catholic Empire declared war on Bohemia (Czech republic today because of doctrinal differences and the notion that they could force citizens of that country to believe Catholic dogma if only they could go to war with them and kill those who stood in opposition. Some would call that "an extreme" form of proselytism pre-Vatican II.

The same thing happens in the civil war the broke out in the holy roman empire between German states etc.

Many examples of such proselytize via war during the dark ages.

BobRyan · Aug 29, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
In fairness, many Christians have the same attitude. It's rare a Christian denomination sees their church as just one of many equally valid choices.

There is a point there that should not be missed.

Few if any Christians say "my church is wrong but so are all the other churches so it does not matter - we are all the same"
Many will say "my church is right and many others have a lot of things right - I just think mine is the best I have found so far"
Many others will say "I don't have time to compare denominations and find out which one is the most correct - I like the one I am presently in, I have friends there"

Xeno.of.athens · Aug 29, 2023

BobRyan said:
There is a point there that should not be missed.

Few if any Christians say "my church is wrong but so are all the other churches so it does not matter - we are all the same"
Many will say "my church is right and many others have a lot of things right - I just think mine is the best I have found so far"
Many others will say "I don't have time to compare denominations and find out which one is the most correct - I like the one I am presently in, I have friends there"

Agreed.

I have friends in the Catholic Church and I like my local community, I also like a lot of what is in the Catechisms I have read, but I do not think every Catholic is flawless nor that the church's leaders are all wise and godly. But still, I like Catholicism, it is restful as well as respectful.

BobRyan · Aug 29, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
Agreed.

I have friends in the Catholic Church and I like my local community, I also like a lot of what is in the Catechisms I have read, but I do not think every Catholic is flawless nor that the church's leaders are all wise and godly. But still, I like Catholicism, it is restful as well as respectful.

Most Christians will say that about their own denomination - so this is common ground for most if not all of us.

d taylor · Aug 29, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
In CF I've come across a number of Protestants who are convinced that Catholics teach and believe that Protestants are not Christians and are heading for hell.

I want to fix that hole in their thinking.

Protestants are Christians, at least most would be, I am sure. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches this in these paragraphs.

CCC 818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

CCC 819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."

-

Being a christian gets nobody to heaven. Receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life, by belief/faith in Jesus, is the only way a person receives the Etrenal Life of God which enables them to spend eternity with God. They cross over from death to life at the moment of belief in Jesus.

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