Five Misconceptions About Calvinism

[jimmyjimmy]

You won't defend you position. You want to take the easy road out by CLAIMING I don't understand. The truth is, you don't want to articulate. You want to just make your points without arguments, and say "You're wrong" without elucidation. That kind of thing doesn't fly.

Get back to me when understand point 5. I'll be happy to debate you once you understand what the Calvinist's position is.

 

[Hammster]

If man is a free agent, his nature is not to ALWAYS sin. Total depravity is Calvinism. God does not love just SOME folks. That is also Calvinism. We do not need a new nature to choose to love God. All we need to do is reach out and accept the grace that God offers us.

Okay, but what if my scenario was true (which was the assumption of my post)? Would that make Him a monster?

 

[Open Heart]

Get back to me when understand point 5. I'll be happy to debate you once you understand what the Calvinist's position is.

Okay. So we end it in my favor. Fine with me.

 

[Open Heart]

Okay, but what if my scenario was true (which was the assumption of my post)? Would that make Him a monster?

I'm not sure. I need some clarifications.
1. If mankind has free will, then how can he have a nature that ALWAYS sins and is always an enemy of God?
2. Why does God only love some people, and what are the criteria for whom God chooses to love?

 

[Hammster]

I'm not sure. I need some clarifications.
1. If mankind has free will, then how can he have a nature that ALWAYS sins and is always an enemy of God?
2. Why does God only love some people/what are the criteria for whom God chooses to love?

You're getting outside of the scope of the question. Let's deal with that first. I'll simplify it. Would God be a moral monster if He decided only to save some, keeping in mind that nobody deserves saving?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Okay. So we end it in my favor. Fine with me.

If that's how you wish to see it, that's fine.

 

[Open Heart]

You're getting outside of the scope of the question. Let's deal with that first. I'll simplify it. Would God be a moral monster if He decided only to save some, keeping in mind that nobody deserves saving?

It all depends. Does he have one standard that he judges everyone by, or does he play favorites? Does he give some an unfair edge in the game? Does he decide before he creates those who he will damn that they will be damned?

Did you think this was going to be easy? It's not. God has to be just. If he is loving and just, then that's the God I know. If he is unloving and unjust, then he is a monster.

Let's say that I am the girl scout leader. I have brought cookies for the scouts. They have been especially squirmy and argumentative with each other and I am drained. I don't feel like giving cookies to any of them. I decide to give cookies to just three of them. Is that morally right and just?

 

[Hammster]

It all depends. Does he have one standard that he judges everyone by, or does he play favorites? Does he give some an unfair edge in the game? Does he decide before he creates those who he will damn that they will be damned?

Did you think this was going to be easy? It's not. God has to be just. If he is loving and just, then that's the God I know. If he is unloving and unjust, then he is a monster.

Well, just would be sending everyone to hell. So, if He chooses not to, does that make Him a moral monster?

 

[Open Heart]

Well, just would be sending everyone to hell. So, if He chooses not to, does that make Him a moral monster?

Although justice means a punishment that fits the crime, justice tempered by mercy is not unjust. Remember that there are already plenty of temporal punishments built into the system for sins, including physical death.

Just also means dealing with an even hand. If you have two individuals who have committed an assault and caused about the same amount of damage, you don't send one to jail for a year, and give the other two weeks of community service. That would be a monstrous judge--something is wrong with him.

Unless there is something OBJECTIVE for which the judge varies the sentences. BUT but but Calvinists say there is nothing upon which God varies his decision regarding his predestination.

 

[Open Heart]

Well, just would be sending everyone to hell. So, if He chooses not to, does that make Him a moral monster?

Don't forget that part of the "monster" charge is that God creates people for no other ultimate purpose other than damnation. Since there is no free will and predestination is like computer programming, those not predestined to salvation are implicitly predestined to hell. Why would a God create beings predestined to hell? The only reason I can imagine is that he is a monster. After all, he doesn't have to create them.

 

[Hammster]

Although justice means a punishment that fits the crime, justice tempered by mercy is not unjust. Remember that there are already plenty of temporal punishments built into the system for sins, including physical death.

Just also means dealing with an even hand. If you have two individuals who have committed an assault and caused about the same amount of damage, you don't send one to jail for a year, and give the other two weeks of community service. That would be a monstrous judge--something is wrong with him.

Unless there is something OBJECTIVE for which the judge varies the sentences. BUT but but Calvinists say there is nothing upon which God varies his decision regarding his predestination.

You've wandered. You made a false claim against Calvinism. I'm asking a question if it's immoral to save some even if none deserve it. It's not unjust if the penalty is paid.

 

[Hammster]

Don't forget that part of the "monster" charge is that God creates people for no other ultimate purpose other than damnation. Since there is no free will and predestination is like computer programming, those not predestined to salvation are implicitly predestined to hell. Why would a God create beings predestined to hell? The only reason I can imagine is that he is a monster. After all, he doesn't have to create them.

In your system, does He have to create those He knows He'll send to hell?

 

[Open Heart]

You've wandered. You made a false claim against Calvinism. I'm asking a question if it's immoral to save some even if none deserve it. It's not unjust if the penalty is paid.

It is unjust if some are treated differently than others. If the savior pays the penalty only for some, that is patently unjust.

 

[Hammster]

It is unjust if some are treated differently than others. If the savior pays the penalty only for some, that is patently unjust.

Why? What have the others done to deserve to have their penalties paid for?

 

[Open Heart]

In your system, does He have to create those He knows He'll send to hell?

In my system, if a judge decides a person is guilty before hearing the case, he is unjust. In the case of the Calvinistic god, it is a thousand times more egregious because this god is actually bringing these damned souls into existence. Why would any god create a soul just to do nothing but send them to hell? It is the very definition of sadistic.

And why would anyone worship such a god? This soooo disturbs me.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

It is unjust if some are treated differently than others. If the savior pays the penalty only for some, that is patently unjust.

If 10 people shoplift from a store and are caught on camera doing so, is it unjust if the store owners son pays for the stolen goods of one of the people, asking his father to forgive them and accept his payment for what they stole?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

In my system, if a judge decides a person is guilty before hearing the case, he is unjust. In the case of the Calvinistic god, it is a thousand times more egregious because this god is actually bringing these damned souls into existence. Why would any god create a soul just to do nothing but send them to hell? It is the very definition of sadistic.

And why would anyone worship such a god? This soooo disturbs me.

Are you a Universalist?

 

[Hammster]

In my system, if a judge decides a person is guilty before hearing the case, he is unjust. In the case of the Calvinistic god, it is a thousand times more egregious because this god is actually bringing these damned souls into existence. Why would any god create a soul just to do nothing but send them to hell? It is the very definition of sadistic.

And why would anyone worship such a god? This soooo disturbs me.

That didn't answer the question.

In your system, does He have to create those He knows He'll send to hell?

 

[Open Heart]

Why? What have the others done to deserve to have their penalties paid for?

What have they done to be loved any less than anyone else?

Part of justice is treating everyone with the same even hand. You don't give someone preferential treatment. I don't say to one son, you spilled milk, you are grounded for two weeks! and to another son, you spilled milk, but it's ok I love you. That would be playing favorites. And when I am in charge of groups of any sort, whether they are my third grade class or my men's group therapy, the rule is if you bring anything special, you can't bring it for just some, you have to bring it for everyone.

 

[Open Heart]

That didn't answer the question.

In your system, does He have to create those He knows He'll send to hell?

God IS creator. Why are we doing a hypothetical god who is not creator? The whole point of my argument is to show where Calvinist assumptions lead.