Fitness/Diet Accountability Thread

[FireDragon76]

That's actually GOOD. If we go by that metric alone, that already puts you at the healthier end of our age bracket.



It's possible your VO2max would be higher in reality.

I bet your calculated MHR is throwing the calculations off. Calculated MHR is rarely accurate. To get your actual MHR, you need to consult a fitness coach.

I'm crazy and poor as **** so I got my actual MHR on my own ignoring the risk of heart failure or sudden death. If it sounds there's significant risks involved in getting your actual MHR, there is that's why I'm telling you to consult a fitness coach.

If you don't want go down that route, just add 10 to 15 pts to your calculated MHR. It's usually going to be more accurate and your VO2max will be higher.



I used the formula 15 x (MHR / RHR). I tested the formula on popular athletes using their published heart rates and VO2max results using expensive machines. The calculated VO2max is only few pts off the expensive machine results, which is pretty accurate.

I'm using an elliptical "Fitness Test" mode to calculate VO2Max. It's only an approximation, however. It uses age, weight, and the maximum amount of watts produced by pedalling at a certain RPM for a given duration, to make an educated guess at the actual VO2Max.

Using sleeping heart rate to estimate resting heart rate is relatively new, but based on my own testing, and the testing of others, it's reasonably accurate and testing at night allows the resting heart rate to be updated daily. This number is fed into the Personal Activity Index (PAI) and other algorithms on smart watches to determine a heart rate reserve.

Using your formula, the VO2Max comes out to about 46, which would decent. I actually was diagnosed with exercise-related asthma years ago, but I've noticed improvement since I went Vegan. I don't use albuterol anymore and don't really have asthma attacks after exercise.

 

[timewerx]

I'm using an elliptical "Fitness Test" mode to calculate VO2Max. It's only an approximation, however. It uses age, weight, and the maximum amount of watts produced by pedalling at a certain RPM for a given duration, to make an educated guess at the actual VO2Max.

Using sleeping heart rate to estimate resting heart rate is relatively new, but based on my own testing, and the testing of others, it's reasonably accurate and testing at night allows the resting heart rate to be updated daily. This number is fed into the Personal Activity Index (PAI) and other algorithms on smart watches to determine a heart rate reserve.

Using your formula, the VO2Max comes out to about 46, which would decent. I actually was diagnosed with exercise-related asthma years ago, but I've noticed improvement since I went Vegan. I don't use albuterol anymore and don't really have asthma attacks after exercise.

Your calculated VO2max of 46 sounds more accurate. Some of the recreational cyclists I knew had Rest HR same as yours and these guys are riding all day, though not non-stop like I do but stopping to eat every now and then. Otherwise, physically fit.

I don't think age would be a factor for physically active individuals. It would only apply to sedentary and minimally active individuals when calculating VO2max.

I think the Rest HR is actually a stronger metric than VO2max in terms of cardiovascular fitness. You high end HR is providing a significant boost to VO2max just a bonus. What's common among world class endurance athletes is having exceptionally low Rest HR and under 40 bpm RHR is not uncommon.

But do note VO2max although a good, if not, the best metric for cardio fitness, is not the only factor for exercise performance / endurance. Your muscular conditioning will be a strong factor as well.

 

[RDKirk]

I'm crazy and poor as **** so I got my actual MHR on my own ignoring the risk of heart failure or sudden death. If it sounds there's significant risks involved in getting your actual MHR, there is that's why I'm telling you to consult a fitness coach.

That advice is for people who haven't been doing conscientious cardio training and people who don't know their usual heart response to vigorous exertion. If a person has been doing consistent and vigorous cardio for a few years and has been using a heart rate monitor to know the usual exercise response of their hearts, testing themselves for maximum heart rate should not be a risk. Throttle up and watch the heart rate. If the heartrate starts varying oddly, stop. If it continues rising, even slowly, keep pushing until it stops and you can't push any harder.

Heartrate is how I can even tell the difference between "feeling down" and actually getting sick. If I'm merely feeling down (maybe overtrained and needing more rest), my heartrate still responds to cardio with the same smoothness. If I'm actually getting sick, it will fluctuate oddly.

 

[FireDragon76]

Heartrate is how I can even tell the difference between "feeling down" and actually getting sick. If I'm merely feeling down (maybe overtrained and needing more rest), my heartrate still responds to cardio with the same smoothness. If I'm actually getting sick, it will fluctuate oddly.

How are you monitoring your Polar chest strap?

I have been thinking of getting one just because I have a sneaking suspicion my watch isn't the most accurate once my heart rate gets above 142.

I went to a gym that is slighter further away, and got a 3 day pass, just to check out the equipment. I did a bunch of Zone 1 on various exercise bikes for a couple of hours, but I also did some crazy intervals on an air bike, trying to get my heart rate up to about 85-90 percent or so. I don't think my watch was reading correctly, it only reported about 142 bpm (it updates every minute or so). I'll have to upload the data to a phone later and check it out. I pushed it so hard I was breathing very hard. It's not uncommon for fitness trackers and smart watches to be inaccurate once they get above 140 bpm or so, usually underreporting.

I actually liked the recumbent bike the best. I could do that sort of thing for a half hour without any breaks. The upright bike was better than the Schwinn or Peloton spinners in terms of the seat, but it still felt like it lacked padding around my sit bones.

@timewerx might be interested in knowing that I actually had open heart surgery as a child (actually, a 1 year old baby). I had a nerve in my heart severed during the surgery, so I have a slight heart murmur, but no special conditions on exercise. One of my valves has some leakage that isn't clinically significant. All things considered, I seem to be in better cardiovascular condition than most people in my family. My brother in particular has a high resting heart rate, it's always in the 80's. My dad is dealing with heart failure, but it's related to his high blood pressure and weight. He's had high blood pressure for decades.

I managed to mostly dodge high blood pressure. I was only borderline high during one particularly stressful year in my 30's.

 

[FireDragon76]

My weight has gone down half a pound in about a week, which seems alot lower than expected, given the amount of calories I am consuming and the amount of exercise I am doing.

Bello is very disappointing. It says in the past half week, visceral fat is unchanged. I've lost some additional fat overall in the past month, but not much. Maybe I'm not doing the right kinds of cardio.

I've been experimenting with the outdoor air walker. It's clunky and takes some coordination, but I am getting used to it. It's not a very intense exercise, my pulse only gets up to about 118. I might look into getting a folding air walker, but I am curious to see more opinions about them. I used something similar at a gym, but it was hooked up to a flywheel and it was easier to coordinate and just get into a flowing groove.

 

[RDKirk]

How are you monitoring your Polar chest strap?

My Polar units are an older model that used radio telemetry between the chest band and the wrist receiver. I've got a couple of sets, and the batteries are replaceable. They're still available on Amazon, but good grief, they're over $200. That's more than a 100% increase over what I paid for them.

The newer Polars use Bluetooth.

They update second by second, in near real-time and display heartrate continuously. I've tested them against other equipment like blood pressure monitors and oximeters, and they're always dead on.

At first I thought the chest band would be a bother, but it's not at all. It doesn't need to be extremely tight, just snug enough to stay in place.

 

[FireDragon76]

My Polar units are an older model that used radio telemetry between the chest band and the wrist receiver. I've got a couple of sets, and the batteries are replaceable. They're still available on Amazon, but good grief, they're over $200. That's more than a 100% increase over what I paid for them.

The newer Polars use Bluetooth.

They update second by second, in near real-time and display heartrate continuously. I've tested them against other equipment like blood pressure monitors and oximeters, and they're always dead on.

At first I thought the chest band would be a bother, but it's not at all. It doesn't need to be extremely tight, just snug enough to stay in place.

Have you used any of the heart rate monitors on gym exercise equipment? Which is more accurate, in your experience?

Most of the HIIT oriented equipment requires using a chest strap connected via bluetooth, to have the machine report the heart rate. Which makes sense as it's usually difficult to have a really solid electrical contact with any of the surfaces with your hands when you are working hard.

 

[RDKirk]

Have you used any of the heart rate monitors on gym exercise equipment? Which is more accurate, in your experience?

Many professional gym machines are compatible with the radio transmitters. Otherwise, I find the Polar monitors far more accurate. They respond much more quickly and smoothly to heart rate variations, and are overall more accurate. It seems like some gym machine monitors try to extrapolate heart rate to keep up.

Most of the HIIT oriented equipment requires using a chest strap connected via bluetooth, to have the machine report the heart rate. Which makes sense as it's usually difficult to have a really solid electrical contact with any of the surfaces with your hands when you are working hard.

That's why I prefer using my own monitor with a single-purpose wrist-mount readout that's constant and real-time.

 

[timewerx]

@timewerx might be interested in knowing that I actually had open heart surgery as a child (actually, a 1 year old baby). I had a nerve in my heart severed during the surgery, so I have a slight heart murmur, but no special conditions on exercise. One of my valves has some leakage that isn't clinically significant. All things considered, I seem to be in better cardiovascular condition than most people in my family. My brother in particular has a high resting heart rate, it's always in the 80's. My dad is dealing with heart failure, but it's related to his high blood pressure and weight. He's had high blood pressure for decades.

I managed to mostly dodge high blood pressure. I was only borderline high during one particularly stressful year in my 30's.

You probably need to check with your doctor if it's safe for you to do Zone 4 to 5 (in a 5-zone intensity rating) intervals during exercise.

Because the blood pressure can exceed 200 mmHg systolic during a 30 second Zone 5 interval even with perfectly healthy individuals.

It can even happen with lower Zone 4 intensity, 5 minute interval.

 

[timewerx]

That advice is for people who haven't been doing conscientious cardio training and people who don't know their usual heart response to vigorous exertion. If a person has been doing consistent and vigorous cardio for a few years and has been using a heart rate monitor to know the usual exercise response of their hearts, testing themselves for maximum heart rate should not be a risk. Throttle up and watch the heart rate. If the heartrate starts varying oddly, stop. If it continues rising, even slowly, keep pushing until it stops and you can't push any harder.

Heartrate is how I can even tell the difference between "feeling down" and actually getting sick. If I'm merely feeling down (maybe overtrained and needing more rest), my heartrate still responds to cardio with the same smoothness. If I'm actually getting sick, it will fluctuate oddly.

I have angina and borderline hypertensive. I have far less bouts of angina now when I became fitter. It's been quite a while since I last had one, in fact, I can't remember when was the last one.

However, despite reaching pro athletic numbers, I'm still borderline hypertensive. By BP did went down but not by much. I feel way better though with my current level of fitness. In fact, I never felt this good probably since birth.

Still I thought it was risky trying to get my Max HR and doing Max HR workouts every week. Sometimes I'd feel some soreness at my chest around the heart area. Never got worse however and did not affect my exercise performance

 

[RDKirk]

I have angina and borderline hypertensive. I have far less bouts of angina now when I became fitter. It's been quite a while since I last had one, in fact, I can't remember when was the last one.

However, despite reaching pro athletic numbers, I'm still borderline hypertensive. By BP did went down but not by much. I feel way better though with my current level of fitness. In fact, I never felt this good probably since birth.

Still I thought it was risky trying to get my Max HR and doing Max HR workouts every week. Sometimes I'd feel some soreness at my chest around the heart area. Never got worse however and did not affect my exercise performance

There's no reason to hit maximum heart rate more than once or twice a year, and then only to track if and how it's changed. Once you know what your true MHR is, do HIIT workouts once or twice a week in the 80-90% range for fitness. And if you're in that range for HIIT, those won't be long workouts. When I hear about someone doing HIIT for 20-30 minutes, I know they're nowhere near true 80-90%.

Practically speaking, the shorter time you can maintain a HIIT workout, the more likely you're really working close to MRH.

Remember that cardio is kind of a "extremely high rep, low weight" exercise for your heart. When you hit maximum heart rate, you're combining extremely high reps with a high pump (weight) requirement at the same time. MHR isn't something you can actually sustain for any substantial length of time. It's like a one-rep maximum bench press. MHR is something you "bounce" off, just before you cough up a lung.

That's not necessary for productive cardio improvement.

I've personally never felt soreness around my heart...that would alarm me.

 

[timewerx]

There's no reason to hit maximum heart rate more than once or twice a year, and then only to track if and how it's changed. Once you know what your true MHR is, do HIIT workouts once or twice a week in the 80-90% range for fitness. And if you're in that range for HIIT, those won't be long workouts. When I hear about someone doing HIIT for 20-30 minutes, I know they're nowhere near true 80-90%.

Practically speaking, the shorter time you can maintain a HIIT workout, the more likely you're really working close to MRH.

Remember that cardio is kind of a "extremely high rep, low weight" exercise for your heart. When you hit maximum heart rate, you're combining extremely high reps with a high pump (weight) requirement at the same time. MHR isn't something you can actually sustain for any substantial length of time. It's like a one-rep maximum bench press. MHR is something you "bounce" off, just before you cough up a lung.

That's not necessary for productive cardio improvement.

I've personally never felt soreness around my heart...that would alarm me.

My Max HR when it gets to 210 bpm from sprinting for example, any increased effort at that point won't raise it further.

A ridiculously hard effort btw, something I can only maintain for 20 to 30 seconds. Beyond that time, my muscles get uncontrollably weaker, though not in pain, just weaker and the intensity drops down to Zone 3 or tempo if try to maintain the effort past 30 seconds.

The worst feeling I get from these intervals is the feeling of like being forced to breathe through a straw like getting choked or something.

I did those sessions 5 days a week. I saw in a youtube vid it's a form of training called "Sprint Interval Training" or SIT although I didn't literally do a SIT. I did short weekday sessions that included sprinting but does not meet the requirements of SIT. I did something different instead. Saturday is a very long Zone 2 bike ride.

It's the training that shot my VO2max to world class levels and my Rest HR under 40 bpm and adding to the craziness is doing the training at the age of 41 with some heart conditions. I'm just glad I didn't need a trip to the ER.

This year, I'm still doing very long Zone 2 cardio (mixed skating and stairs climbing) but eliminated sprinting sessions and my VO2max dropped down significantly while my Rest HR went up as well despite having more than enough recovery days.

It would seem the key to maximizing VO2max is having both very long Zone 2 cardio sessions and sprinting sessions.

 

[RDKirk]

My Max HR when it gets to 210 bpm from sprinting for example, any increased effort at that point won't raise it further.

IMO, MHR can only be achieved by sprinting...that is, going all-out while also totally supporting your own weight. I think whatever MHR a person achieves while, say, cycling or swimming could be raised at least a few beats if the person were expending the same level of effort while sprinting.

A ridiculously hard effort btw, something I can only maintain for 20 to 30 seconds. Beyond that time, my muscles get uncontrollably weaker, though not in pain, just weaker and the intensity drops down to Zone 3 or tempo if try to maintain the effort past 30 seconds.

Yeah, 20 or thirty seconds.

The worst feeling I get from these intervals is the feeling of like being forced to breathe through a straw like getting choked or something.

I did those sessions 5 days a week. I saw in a youtube vid it's a form of training called "Sprint Interval Training" or SIT although I didn't literally do a SIT. I did short weekday sessions that included sprinting but does not meet the requirements of SIT. I did something different instead. Saturday is a very long Zone 2 bike ride.

It's the training that shot my VO2max to world class levels and my Rest HR under 40 bpm and adding to the craziness is doing the training at the age of 41 with some heart conditions. I'm just glad I didn't need a trip to the ER.

Just as with any other muscle, you don't have to go to failure (the point the body utterly and truly refuses to go along with the mind, and you can't do more even if someone puts a gun to your child's head) with every set to strengthen your heart. Going to failure is to determine what the limit feels like. Gains can be accomplished safely in the 80-90 percent range.

 

[FireDragon76]

There's no reason to hit maximum heart rate more than once or twice a year, and then only to track if and how it's changed. Once you know what your true MHR is, do HIIT workouts once or twice a week in the 80-90% range for fitness. And if you're in that range for HIIT, those won't be long workouts. When I hear about someone doing HIIT for 20-30 minutes, I know they're nowhere near true 80-90%.

Practically speaking, the shorter time you can maintain a HIIT workout, the more likely you're really working close to MRH.

Remember that cardio is kind of a "extremely high rep, low weight" exercise for your heart. When you hit maximum heart rate, you're combining extremely high reps with a high pump (weight) requirement at the same time. MHR isn't something you can actually sustain for any substantial length of time. It's like a one-rep maximum bench press. MHR is something you "bounce" off, just before you cough up a lung.

That's not necessary for productive cardio improvement.

I've personally never felt soreness around my heart...that would alarm me.

I'm learning not to go for maximum heart rate. It's way too intense and it can really hinder recovery. Your body pumps out alot of catecholamines and cortisol and it does nothing good for the nervous system. Sometimes I even have trouble sleeping afterwards.

I pushed a weighted sled today flat out for about twenty yards or so at the gym. I had explosive power, but afterwards I was wiped out. My heart rate was so high my watch couldn't even begin to measure it, but it felt like it was near maximum. On the other hand, earlier in the day I could sustain 147 beats per minute for a few minutes on an incline elliptical machine. And according to my watch, it's enough to qualify as high intensity, but I wasn't left feeling wasted. So I think that's the sweet spot for high intensity interval training for me, around 80-85 percent maximum. It's enough I can get in some high intensity activity, but not so much it's going to cost me later in recovery and poorer sleep.

The rest of the workout was all Zone 1 recovery. After the sled I felt like I was done for the day.

 

[timewerx]

I'm learning not to go for maximum heart rate. It's way too intense and it can really hinder recovery. Your body pumps out alot of catecholamines and cortisol and it does nothing good for the nervous system. Sometimes I even have trouble sleeping afterwards.

I pushed a weighted sled today flat out for about twenty yards or so at the gym. I had explosive power, but afterwards I was wiped out. My heart rate was so high my watch couldn't even begin to measure it, but it felt like it was near maximum. On the other hand, earlier in the day I could sustain 147 beats per minute for a few minutes on an incline elliptical machine. And according to my watch, it's enough to qualify as high intensity, but I wasn't left feeling wasted. So I think that's the sweet spot for high intensity interval training for me, around 80-85 percent maximum. It's enough I can get in some high intensity activity, but not so much it's going to cost me later in recovery and poorer sleep.

The rest of the workout was all Zone 1 recovery. After the sled I felt like I was done for the day.

Last year I did Mon to Wed, 6 x 20 to 30 second Max HR intervals each day, Thu and Fri just one Max HR interval and no other exercise done. Saturday, just one long bike ride at Zone 2 with HIIT within the final 10 miles and a Max HR sprint finish.

Saturday morning before bike ride, my actual Rest HR would be under 40 bpm so I'm actually hitting target rested / recovered figures. It's the same week after week.

No sleep issues the whole week and no sore muscles by Saturday morning before long bike ride.

I totally get your situation when you're new to Max HR training and you do need to consult with your doctor first if you ever think of including it in your routine.

Lately, I've been stretching my skating sessions to 1.5 hrs a day Mon to Fri. It's making me exceed 10 hr/week exercise time. I'm finding it somewhat addictive. It's low intensity for me and under Zone 2. In order to get to Zone 2, I need to skate faster and I'm not yet confident skating at higher speeds.

 

[FireDragon76]

Yesterday I bought a pair of bike shorts to try out, just to see if it adds a bit of extra comfort.

I woke up early this morning with irritated sinuses. I suppose a risk of going to a gym is picking something up. I did the COVID quick test and it says negative, which is good.

My body weight is down to 165 and my waist is down to 36 inches. The Bello app says my visceral fat is the lowest it has been tested, but still it says I have more visceral fat than 55 percent of its sample base. Covert Bailey method with a tape measures comes out to around 20 percent body fat. Fat Free Mass may have gone down slightly, but so has body fat, and there might be some water loss affecting fat-free mass. I now look alot thinner than the majority of people my age, as well as a little bit more muscle definition. I want to get to 18 percent body fat as my next goal.

This morning, my ketones levels were quite high, 6.5 mmol/L. I did eat a bit more fat yesterday (guacamole), so that might be part of the reason, but it also probably reflects burning alot of calories. My watch has been saying I'm burning 700-900 calories in activity per day. 6.5 is too high for ketone levels for sustainable weight loss, so I should either be eating more or exercising somewhat less.

I've done so much high intensity work this week, the rest of the week is going to be a deload. 117 bpm seems to be a good compromise between being too easy, and being a pace I can sustain for a long time without fatigue. I might do some Zone 2 training, but I'm going to target no more than 128-130 bpm, and I'm going to try to limit the number of activity points I get in Zone 2.

I agree with @RDKirk, I don't think maximum heart rate is something you want to experience regularly. Just as long as you get above the lactate threshold, it's doing the same thing in a more manageable dose.

 

[FireDragon76]

Last year I did Mon to Wed, 6 x 20 to 30 second Max HR intervals each day, Thu and Fri just one Max HR interval and no other exercise done. Saturday, just one long bike ride at Zone 2 with HIIT within the final 10 miles and a Max HR sprint finish.

Saturday morning before bike ride, my actual Rest HR would be under 40 bpm so I'm actually hitting target rested / recovered figures. It's the same week after week.

No sleep issues the whole week and no sore muscles by Saturday morning before long bike ride.

I totally get your situation when you're new to Max HR training and you do need to consult with your doctor first if you ever think of including it in your routine.

Lately, I've been stretching my skating sessions to 1.5 hrs a day Mon to Fri. It's making me exceed 10 hr/week exercise time. I'm finding it somewhat addictive. It's low intensity for me and under Zone 2. In order to get to Zone 2, I need to skate faster and I'm not yet confident skating at higher speeds.

I wouldn't depend on resting heart rate alone . There are alot of reasons heart rate could be low, not all of them good (like electrolyte imbalances)

Heart rate variability, on the other hand, can potentially tell you more about the balance of your nervous system, and it's more directly related to biological aging. The disadvantage is that it can be a little more difficult to interpret. Most smart phones or smart watches now days can measure heart rate variability. If heart rate variability is decreasing, that can be an early sign of overtraining.

 

[FireDragon76]

The cold air this morning, waiting for a ride and woefully underdressed, got into my bones and now I'm feeling under the weather. So unfortunately, I missed our Ash Wednesday service.

I used to think the idea of cold making you sick was an old wives tale, but I think if you are stressed at all, either through eating less calories or more exercise, it can definitely happen. And there's some science to back that up. The human body under enough of a calorie deficit, and particularly under stress, will lower sex hormones, libido, metabolism, and the immune system if it has to start giving up serious amounts of body fat. This effect of intense exercise is great if you have an autoimmune condition, but it can leave you vulnerable to infection.

My best sleep, looking over my sleep log, has actually been on days that I've only done alot of low intensity exercise like slow walking. Sleep quality has been declining for a few days now. Initially, I was sleeping better, but the last few days it's been somewhat worse.

 

[timewerx]

I wouldn't depend on resting heart rate alone . There are alot of reasons heart rate could be low, not all of them good (like electrolyte imbalances)

Heart rate variability, on the other hand, can potentially tell you more about the balance of your nervous system, and it's more directly related to biological aging. The disadvantage is that it can be a little more difficult to interpret. Most smart phones or smart watches now days can measure heart rate variability. If heart rate variability is decreasing, that can be an early sign of overtraining.

The main reason I have low Rest HR is from having an 'Athlete's heart'.

My Rest HR varies throughout the week according to my weekly workout schedule with clockwork precision. Nothing's off and I get maximum performance when my rest HR is at its lowest and under 40 bpm.

It's fairly common for professional athletes to have Rest HR under 40 bpm. Few even managed to get it under 30 bpm which is ridiculous.

 

[timewerx]

The cold air this morning, waiting for a ride and woefully underdressed, got into my bones and now I'm feeling under the weather. So unfortunately, I missed our Ash Wednesday service.

I used to think the idea of cold making you sick was an old wives tale, but I think if you are stressed at all, either through eating less calories or more exercise, it can definitely happen. And there's some science to back that up. The human body under enough of a calorie deficit, and particularly under stress, will lower sex hormones, libido, metabolism, and the immune system if it has to start giving up serious amounts of body fat. This effect of intense exercise is great if you have an autoimmune condition, but it can leave you vulnerable to infection.

My best sleep, looking over my sleep log, has actually been on days that I've only done alot of low intensity exercise like slow walking. Sleep quality has been declining for a few days now. Initially, I was sleeping better, but the last few days it's been somewhat worse.

Exercise shouldn't be contributing to your stress. Find another exercise if it's stressing you.

Skating helps me unwind from the stress of work. I feel off and wanting something if I didn't skate.

Calorie deficit is probably less important in trying to lose weight. Just a slight deficit is good enough.

What would also help greatly in my experience is avoiding eating any food or drink that will make you drink more water. Sweets and salty dishes for example.

I make my own dessert so it's never too sweet and I can use ingredients that are actually healthy. Although drinking lots of water may help kill the appetite and is a common advice to those who are trying to lose weight.

Ironically, one of the key adaptations to help you lose fat faster is adapting to reduced water intake. I'm not telling you to deliberately restrict your water intake. Always drink whenever thirsty. Just avoid foods or ingredients that will make you drink more.