First generation Christian with questions, parent problems and not enough guidance.

[Begat]

I'm feeling a little discouraged right now, and I'd really like support. For the past ten years my mum has usually been okay about my faith, and usually acts as a buffer against my dad who gets really keyed up about it, but she said tonight that she was worried, and that worries me, because mum is usually right. If it means anything to anyone, on MTBI tests I'm IN*P and my mum is ESTJ. My dad, I think, is INTJ.

She said that she thought I let my faith take over my life too much. As everything else that had a hold on me since childhood always occupied a few hours of my time a week at most and was left by the wayside after a few years, she said that my constant recourse to religion, and for over a period of over ten years, seemed to her like a maniacal obsession in comparison. She said that she was worried that it had 'lasted' this long, and was concerned that it was limiting me insomuch as it was determining the sorts of things I read, the things that I would and wouldn't allow myself to do and the sorts of people I make friends with and associate with, and the sort of career I want for myself - not to mention the way I view romantic relationships. She said that the path I was allowing myself to go down seemed very 'narrow' - as narrow as the path of a Jehovah's Witness, except that the only person imposing it on me was myself. She said that that was what scared her the most. Surprised to hear that I am this way because I like to be and not because I'm afraid I'll go to hell if I don't, she said that I appeared, in her eyes, to be 'brainwashing' myself. I know that Christians tend to see these things as good signs, but I'm concerned that for all of these ostentatiously Christian values and aspirations I've acquired, my faith itself could actually be stronger than it is right now. I've had to make some difficult and courageous decisions about my career and relationships of late, but aside from those my standard of general holiness isn't remarkable at all. I keep getting into arguments with my dad, I have bad thought habits, and I'm not very efficient about how I use my time. I'm worried that my mum is right, because she so often is, and that my faith is more maniacal obsession with Jesus and church than it is faith.

I know it's hard to gauge what I'm like from a forum post, but I don't have that many close friends at my church. It's quite a liberal church, and my beliefs are conservative; I acquired them from my university church and the UCCF movement (like InterVarsity), although after much theological study my beliefs no longer fall into a single denominational category. The people in my present church who are as comfortable and as able as I am to talk about issues of doctrine and Biblical passages tend to be the older men of the church, and I'm limited as to how close I can be to them because I'm an early-twenty-something girl. It is a very mixed bag theologically, but some individuals - even elders - say things like "We're all beautiful and perfect in God's eyes because he created us" and "When bad things happen, that's the devil and not God", and "We don't believe that part of the Bible because the Bible is full of contradictions, and that's one of them". My reactions to hearing such things has been one of considerable discomfort, and in the case of the latter statement which sums up the message of a visiting pastor at a church meeting last year, I was left in actual distress to the point of objecting loudly and vocally in front of all present at the meeting. It doesn't help that I chose to read up on a lot of doctrine for my MA degree and had theologians for friends while I was an undergraduate. But seeing the attitudes of people in the church around me, and hearing my mum say what she's saying, I wonder sometimes whether it's me being unhealthily obsessed that's the problem and not the church.

I don't expect hard-and-fast answers if people can't give them, but as I feel discouraged... can someone at least say what they'd consider to constitute a warning sign that I should heed if I see it?

 

[Radagast]

It sounds like a very difficult situation.

Is there another church around that's more UCCF-like? It seems like a better church would help, because theologically it sounds like you're right and your church is wrong.

Faith should control your life. You don't say what "courageous decisions" you've made. If you realised that a non-Christian boyfriend was a bad idea, then good for you! You also mention career decisions, and there things seem less clear to me. A Christian shouldn't be an exotic dancer or a bank-robber, but most "ordinary" careers are fine.

I'm concerned that for all of these ostentatiously Christian values and aspirations I've acquired, my faith itself could actually be stronger than it is right now.

We all feel that.

 

[amenkid777]

are your parents saved?

 

[Begat]

Amenkid777, they actually aren't saved. I'm 'first generation' in this respect, because my upbringing wasn't Christian.

Thanks for your encouragement, Radagast. . I've considered moving churches and I'm always on the brink, but for some reason I'm always impeded by something, and there are always new ways in which people in the church want me to serve (and I'm glad to have a reason not to sit idle at home for it all). It's a church in need. There are some core members whom I can trust, but as I say, they're all older men!

 

[amenkid777]

Since your parents aren't saved, I would not be worried about your mother's feelings. They don't see things the way a saved person does. And maybe (?) your Mom is feeling unsettled about it because she senses it is not just a phase for you, but is something real, and it is bothering her because she might feel convicted by your faith and afraid for herself and her own salvation? As a fellow Christian, taking your salvation seriously is very important, and to live it right takes great dedication. And many people will agree with you, that you are taking the right path by following Christ. You know the Bible is true because you have the Spirit of Christ living in you witnessing with your spirit that it is true. Unsaved people don't, that's why they don't agree with you. Pray about it with God - ask Him to solidify your understanding of your faith, and even give your Mom peace about it.

 

[Quasicentennial]

Faith - the word is quite active in that Jesus keeps you both safe and healthy supernaturally, and yet how he does it can be found in the other partial meaning of Faith where evidence of the real appearance of our future-coming Lord Jesus will be shown in full glory:.
The next stage of healing transformation when Jesus returns is the replacing of our flesh-born mind and bodies with youthful disease-free and disability-free minds and bodies of Christ, where we will experience mind-blowing communication and educational skills so thoroughly precise, nobody would ever criticize or say anything hurtful to each other - as the word "failure" becomes a long-forgotten museum-like memory exhibit:.
As Jesus becomes our global king of the whole human race, without the damaging bad influence of Satan anywhere on our brand new disaster-free Earth, we as new brothers and sisters of Christ will never be lonely or becomesocially inactive because of the powerful renewal of our sleepless minds and and tireless bodies that will be too over-reactively positive in that success has no boundaries .;'*;. Rev 21:2

 

[Begat]

Thanks for your insights Quasicentennial. I hope for the day when I will achieve these things which you describe, but for now I am weak, and I fail often.

 

[Inkachu]

Begat, you need to be taking your cues from God and His word, sweetheart, not from your mother or even people at your church. And what does God's word say? It says that the gospel is foolishness to unbelievers (like your mother). It says the darkness (unbelievers, again, like your mom) can't comprehend the light (Jesus within you). It's EXPECTED that your mother would be confused, concerned, baffled, and frustrated with your new identity and lifestyle. Don't use her reaction as a compass to examine yourself. Pray and ask God to reveal to you any shortcomings in your faith or your sincerity; He's your creator, who knows you and your heart better than He does??

I'm sorry, but I don't know enough about your church denomination to really give an informed opinion on that part

 

[Pal Handy]

Giving yourself over to a religion may or may not be good but giving
yourself over to Christ as you surrender your life daily to Him and seek
His help in your life to grow in Him and to find your purpose in life
in His will instead of what others think or say, is good.

God is love and His will for us is that we would be like Him and love others
He has placed in our lives.

It can be easy for a new Christian to equate the church they attend
with a relationship with Christ but the truth is that Christ wants us to
come into a deeper trust and faith in Him as a person and not just
a concept or religious exercise.

Part of being a follower of Christ is that we reach out in His love to those
around us as we pray for and care for those that God has brought into our lives.

Perhaps your parents are afraid of losing you to the point that you
will no longer love and care for them as they love and care for you.

What good does it do to be so religious and busy doing God's work,
while we ignore those around us that God loves and wants to reach through us?

I am not telling you to quit doing those things in church that bring
you a sense of doing God's will but I am telling you to pay attention
to the only treasure you can carry out of this world and into the
everlasting kingdom to come.

People, people are the treasure we can store up in heaven as they are all that
will pass from this world to the next.

Make time for your family and show them Christ's love by you willingness
to show them that you do care and love them greatly.

Cook a meal for them or take them on an outing so that you will reaffirm your love
for them in your actions.

Acknowledge their concerns for your life and tell them how much you
appreciate the fact that they love you so much that they do not
want anything bad to happen to you.

Try to see their loving hearts and don't become upset with them
as if they want to harm you or make you unhappy as this is not the case.

Hope some of this helps...

 

[LoricaLady]

Your mother got one thing right if she is right that you are following a narrow path. Messiah told us that the path is narrow and constricted that leads to life and Heaven and broad that leads to hell. He said only a few take the narrow path.

Our world is more and more absolutely overflowing with false doctrine and ways which are the opposite of what we are told to follow in Scriptures. If you are standing apart from those more and more that means you are becoming more and more holy. The word holy comes from the word "kodesh" and that means "set apart." According to Scriptures we are to be "a peculiar people" and kodesh.

I don't know about the tests your mother and father took. It doesn't matter. Most of the world, and that includes its tests, are based around worldly values. They are not for the few, but for most. The Bible talks about how those who are wise in their own sight are fools in the Almighty's. It talks about how "Knowledge puffs up", i.e. leads to pride. "Pride goes before a fall and a haughty spirit before destruction."

I have scored at let's say way above average on I.Q. tests. That made me prideful and I called myself an atheist. I was a fool. I had little wisdom.

We are also warned not to be pleasers of men (that includes parents of course) but of Messiah.

The real problem is not your faith - unless you are being religious rather than relational with Messiah, but you don't have to be perfect overnight to be going in the right direction. The real problem is your mother and her lack of faith, her confidence in her mind, her ways and the world's ways, her spiritual blindness. She's only a puny little human, sorta a germ on the planet earth, created by Someone Who made the earth, time, space, matter, her and is infinitely off the charts on those tests you mentioned.

Here is just a thought. You could tell her something like "There are colors we can't see, and sounds we can't hear. And until modern science we couldn't even know they were there. The Holy Spirit is in the realm of things we cannot currently measure with human instruments. But He can communicate to us and cause our eyes and ears to be open to see and hear things we could never have understoodd before. I don't expect you to comprehend that, necessarily, but I know what I know. If you don't agree, that is your choice. Please respect mine and let it go. I love you and I don't want to be in strife with you, but I also don't want you to be coming against my faith. I know what I'm doing. I'm a big girl now. I know you can respect that and let me make my own choices. Let it go, Mom."

Then, gently but firmly rebuff any more of her attempts to make you go back to worldly ways. She'll get the idea if you consistently refuse to argue with her or listen to her on that topic.

However she is really sure she is right, no doubt, as I once was, and actually, no doubt, honestly thinks she is trying to rescue you. She doesn't get it. She can't without the Holy Spirit opening the eyes of her understanding. Frankly, as all of us are before we are saved, she is blinded by the devil. No use telling her that, of course, or she will only think you are nuts and worry more.

No use trying to reason with therefore, probably - unless guided by the Holy Spirit. All you can do is pray for her every day and show her love, the fruit of your faith. If that doesn't do it, that will be very sad. But what would be even more sad is if you let her cause you to lose your faith.

Praying that never happens and that, in fact, you grow in your faith, and that your parents will be saved.

And btw, re the Church situation.... If you can't find one that helps you grow, you must know that there is absolutely nothing in the Bible saying go to Church on Sundays. The word Church comes from a Greek translation of the word ecclesia and simply means a gathering of believers. The modern interpretation of Church as meaning a big building with a cross on top where people worship on Sundays was unheard of by the Apostles and early believers.

See what the 4th Commandment really says about how to observe the Sabbath, also Isaiah 58. Speaking of the time after His Ascension, when the Romans would sack Jerusalem, Messiah told His followers to pray that their flight would not be on the Sabbath or in the winter. Why not on the Sabbath? Because the Sabbath commandment says to rest on that day. It doesn't say go to Church, or even to a Synagogue. If you can find a Church where you are being spiritually fed (and many people complain about not being able to do so) then fine. Otherwise, you can stay at home and rest and spend time with Messiah and be in obedience to the Commandment.

You could, for example, be studying the Scriptures to find out what are things it teaches us to do, and what, that we have been taught outside of Scriptures, are just traditions of men.

 

[Radagast]

If you can't find one that helps you grow, you must know that there is absolutely nothing in the Bible saying go to Church on Sundays.

Well, there is, actually. Hebrews 10:25, for example. And Christians have been "going to church on Sunday" now for just about 2,000 years. If you look at Revelation 2 and 3, the Greek word ecclesia ("church") actually refers to all the Christians in a city. They would all gather together on Sundays. See also Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:2.

Begat, I really hope and pray that you do find a more UCCF-like church.

 

[LoricaLady]

Well, there is, actually. Hebrews 10:25, for example. And Christians have been "going to church on Sunday" now for just about 2,000 years. If you look at Revelation 2 and 3, the Greek word ecclesia ("church") actually refers to all the Christians in a city. They would all gather together on Sundays. See also Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:2.

Begat, I really hope and pray that you do find a more UCCF-like church.

Gee, I kinda feel like I'm being stalked since when I said I didn't want to get into a debate with you any more on another prayer string, you hopped right over here to continue in with an argument.

First, again, learn to do critical thinking. As I said, correctly, more than once, the word ecclesia is a Hebrew word. You are calling it a Greek word. The word "church" is a translation from that Hebrew word to Greek. Since we hear the word "ecclesia" over and over in the "Old" Testament, it obviously cannot mean a Church with a big cross on top where believers go to worship on Sundays.

Of course the believers, who spoke Hebrew, referred to themselves, after they became followers of Messiah, as an ecclesia, or church in Greek. Why? Because they believed they were the true followers of YHWH, aka God, since they followed His Messiah. You can search secular, RCC and Protestant historians and they will let you know that no such thing as a Church, the institution that grew up some centuries after the apostles died, ever, ever existed!

You will see the apostles going to Synagogues on the Sabbath, as Messiah did. Yes, sometimes they did meet on Sundays. Since the Sabbath ends on Saturday evening it flows into Sunday and it has always been the tradition of Jews to continue on a bit with their Sabbath celebrations into early Sundays. But nowhere, nowhere in Scriptures are we ever told that the Sabbath has been changed to Sunday.

Again, Paul said that we are not to let others judge us in our observance of the Sabbath, new moons, holy days. Who was he talking to, anyway? NonJewish converts! He did not want them to let their pagan friends and families judge them in their observance - notice he did not say NONobservance - of the Bible's holy days.

Again, he said those things are shadows of things to come, not shadows of things past. This is because we are told, in the "Old" Testament those days will still be celebrated in the New Millenium.

Again, Paul had no authority whatsoever to change anything whatsoever written in the Scriptures. ALL people are forbidden to do that, more than once!

Again, he did not try to change the Scriptures. Note that in Acts 15 he tells non-Jewish converts to stay away from meat that has been strangled (meat must have the throat slit per Mosaic law) and from blood (also forbidden by Mosaic law.) Acts 15 shows he also expected them to be in the Synagogues, as was the tradition for new believers, learning the rest of the Laws of Moses on the Sabbatah. Gee, if he thought the Law was dead, why did he say, "It is not the hearers of the Law only who will be justified, but the doers only?" Why did he "even" teach people to stick to clean foods? Rhetorical Qs.

All he said was upheld by the Jewish Council in Acts 21. There we are told that people (just like today) are falsely accusing him of not keeping the Law of Moses. James advises him to prove this is wrong by taking a Mosaic vow and paying for others to do the same. (See KJV as some modern translations delete the word "Moses.")

I'm sorry, but I don't have more time to argue this and that with you. The information is out there for those who want to research it. They can make up their own minds. That's all I have to say to you and will read no more of your posts so that I am not tempted to respond and, evidently, waste your time and mine.

Again, this is not really a debate forum anyway. Kindly refrain from taking up space by trying to draw this one on and on.

I would say PM me, but frankly you don't seem to read things too carefully, as when you said ecclesia was a Greek word, so that is disheartening. Don't pm me, please. Sorry.

 

[parsley]

I was left in actual distress to the point of objecting loudly and vocally in front of all present at the meeting.

Ha, I think a prophet or two found themselves in the same predicament.

It sounds like your mum was making honest observations based on how she has seen you live over the years, mixed in with what she believes to be healthy and good. I watched my own relatives exchange this advice decades ago, and while I firmly defended the Christian side at that time, I later saw that the person was in fact needing a little nudge to care for family members and be less caught up in the machinery.

I agree with others -- our faith should be at our core, and we should be continually in prayer. But at the same time, there are a few things we tend to fall into as Christians, that you can check yourself on.

1. Is religious scurrying taking the place of loving expressions

2. Never feeling like one can do enough for God -- turning it into a works-based righteousness

3. Offending others with competitive conversations, rather than leading them toward understanding of truths

4. OCD-like "more is better" ... setting aside other responsibilities because you have prioritized.

5. Being in a mystical zone such a high percentage of the time, that it is not safe driving or operating heavy equipment.

6. Not being open to learning or refining one's own world view (and here I do not mean becoming more liberal, or lax, or wishy-washing -- but continuing to research and weigh, and converse)

7. Ignoring the real needs of people in your close circles: rides to doctors, help moving, gathering with family, etc.

8. Pulling all conversations toward religious topics when impractical or full of jargon -- being insensitive to the moment, not listening to others.

9. Devoting ones allegiance so fully to an organized cause -- church, ministry, etc. -- that you operate in a bubble -- a large percentage of money, energy, and time go to this one group. Obedience to the leader sways life decisions.

10 As above -- pride before a fall. Overconfidence.

There are other concerns, of course, and I'm not implying that any of these have overgrown in your situation. They are just typical tendencies we all need to watch out for. Another list to check might be cult definitions -- not to cut away at your ministry and faith, but to learn where the vulnerabilities lie.

Look around at all the different Christians you have met over the years -- have you found many who have not had some faults and doctrinal errors? And have you found anyone who completely agrees with you? We should all see that we might have some rough edges to work on... but also expect people to not agree completely with how we live and believe.

Listen to your mum, and approach her with respect. Ask her for more specifics.

 

[Radagast]

As I said, correctly, more than once, the word ecclesia is a Hebrew word

Well, no, it's Greek all right: ἐκκλησία

Of course the believers, who spoke Hebrew

They spoke Aramaic or Greek, depending on what country they were in. In the west of the Empire, Latin.

You can search secular, RCC and Protestant historians and they will let you know that no such thing as a Church, the institution that grew up some centuries after the apostles died, ever, ever existed!

Name one reputable historian that says that! In fact, the appointment of deacons and bishops began in N.T. times.

Gee, I kinda feel like I'm being stalked

I could say the same thing, since I was the first person to respond to the O.P. And I don't think the O.P.'s problems will be solved by trying to talk her out of going to church. Precisely because her family is not supportive of her faith, she needs a strong church family.

"Begat" was obviously happy with her university/UCCF church, and really needs a way of recapturing what was good about that -- both in terms of teaching and mentoring. Hopefully, she will find an evangelical church in her area that does that.

 

[Christian Soldier 777]

It seems as though you are hanging with Christians who do not think the same as you. There are many different denominations that are influenced by earthly doctrines, created by man. Jesus is about relationship with God the Father, not religion and doctrines. We have the "Word of God", this is the only doctrine that Christians should profess! When the bible tells us to honor our parents, it doesn't mean do everything they say, it means to respect them, bring honor to them, not obey their every word. After all, in the spirit realm they are not your parents, they are your brother and sister in Christ. (James 4:8) The more you draw near to God, He will draw near to you. The devil will try and block this growth, because the closer you are to God, the more evident the gifts will be in your life. Don't think for a second that he wouldn't use your parents to this growth. I think you should keep pressing into Jesus and find Christians who believe in the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and that the gifts are evident in their church. Stay the course and pray to God to change your parents heart. you are on the right path!! God Bless †

 

[amenkid777]

Ha, I think a prophet or two found themselves in the same predicament.

It sounds like your mum was making honest observations based on how she has seen you live over the years, mixed in with what she believes to be healthy and good. I watched my own relatives exchange this advice decades ago, and while I firmly defended the Christian side at that time, I later saw that the person was in fact needing a little nudge to care for family members and be less caught up in the machinery.

I agree with others -- our faith should be at our core, and we should be continually in prayer. But at the same time, there are a few things we tend to fall into as Christians, that you can check yourself on.

1. Is religious scurrying taking the place of loving expressions

2. Never feeling like one can do enough for God -- turning it into a works-based righteousness

3. Offending others with competitive conversations, rather than leading them toward understanding of truths

4. OCD-like "more is better" ... setting aside other responsibilities because you have prioritized.

5. Being in a mystical zone such a high percentage of the time, that it is not safe driving or operating heavy equipment.

6. Not being open to learning or refining one's own world view (and here I do not mean becoming more liberal, or lax, or wishy-washing -- but continuing to research and weigh, and converse)

7. Ignoring the real needs of people in your close circles: rides to doctors, help moving, gathering with family, etc.

8. Pulling all conversations toward religious topics when impractical or full of jargon -- being insensitive to the moment, not listening to others.

9. Devoting ones allegiance so fully to an organized cause -- church, ministry, etc. -- that you operate in a bubble -- a large percentage of money, energy, and time go to this one group. Obedience to the leader sways life decisions.

10 As above -- pride before a fall. Overconfidence.

There are other concerns, of course, and I'm not implying that any of these have overgrown in your situation. They are just typical tendencies we all need to watch out for. Another list to check might be cult definitions -- not to cut away at your ministry and faith, but to learn where the vulnerabilities lie.

Look around at all the different Christians you have met over the years -- have you found many who have not had some faults and doctrinal errors? And have you found anyone who completely agrees with you? We should all see that we might have some rough edges to work on... but also expect people to not agree completely with how we live and believe.

Listen to your mum, and approach her with respect. Ask her for more specifics.

These are some interesting thoughts to consider, thank you for sharing this parsley.

 

[Harry3142]

Begat-

Christians are a society within a society. There are certain actions, and even certain motivations, which the society that surrounds us tells us we are to approve of, but which our own Scripture tells us that we are never to entertain. And history, including quite recent history, tells us that societies that do entertain such actions and motivations do not last long. They are either taken over by other societies that are unified in their belief, or power is seized by an elite group of people who then demand that everyone else 'get in line' behind their particular agenda. This took place in Germany in the 1930's, and is the cause of the Nazis' rise to power.

The primary difference between the inner society that is Christian and the outer society that is 'of the world' is our contrary view of narcissism. The society around us eventually degenerates to the level of a 'me first, last and always' attitude toward all those around them, while the society that is Christian sees others as of equal importance with ourselves. This results in our seeing the suffering of others as our responsibility to alleviate, rather than our standing back while saying, "I'm glad that wasn't me that happened to."

There is a passage of Scripture which I have quoted often, as it describes extremely well the actions and motivations which Christians are to shun, and the actions and motivations which Christians are to embrace. And note that the actions and motivations which we are to shun can all be placed under the heading of narcissism:

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (Galatians 5:16-26,NIV)

The actions, as well as the motivations, which are listed as 'the acts of the sinful nature' can be identified as the root cause of all sinful acts. And just as a poisoned tree cannot yield good fruit, no act which originates with any of these motivations can be seen as anything other than evil, due to their root cause itself being evil.

This also is the origin of an entire society's disintegration. Those societies whose members permit such motivations to dictate their actions soon find themselves so fragmented that they become easy prey for anyone who wants to gain control, be it from within or a foreign power. Since everyone is selfishly pursuing only what he sees as his own personal gain, the unification which needs to be the foundation of any society soon crumbles into dust.

On the other hand, the motivations which are listed as 'the fruit of the Spirit' are the root cause of all acts of righteousness. Just as we can identify the motivations listed as 'the acts of the sinful nature' as the impetus for all sinful acts, we can also identify the motivations listed as 'the fruit of the Spirit' as the impetus for all righteous acts. That is why the words which immediately follow their listing are, "Against such things there is no law."

And just as individuals who conscientiously permit the motivations which are 'the fruit of the Spirit' to dictate our actions find that we are unified, societies which permit these same motivations to dictate their actions also find themselves unified. This results in their being strong and cohesive, a formidable opponent to anyone who would think of bullying and cajoling them into blindly following him and his agenda.

So your parents are actually attacking the mortar which binds a society together by attacking orthodox Christianity, whether they realize it or not. And that also holds true for those who, through their overwhelming desire to appear sophisticated, attack the belief system that Christianity is built on. Even if they claim to be learned men, their actions can only lead to the undermining of our belief system in their attempt to be seen as up-to-date and 'with it'. And in every case I've been presented with these people rely not on evidence for their conclusions, but rather on their own bias.

BTW: Here are two websites which should provide you with interesting reading. Some ultra-liberal scholars claim that the New Testament, especially the gospels, weren't written until long after the death of the eyewitnesses to Jesus' sojourn among us. They also claim that this length of time was sufficient to allow myth to enter the gospel accounts and contaminate them to the extent that they cannot be accepted as fact. But physical evidence and conscientious study of Scripture has shown that the gospels and epistles were completed well within the lifetime of those who walked with Jesus himself:

The Muratorian Fragment

CADRE-Dating the New Testament

 

[seashale76]

I don't know if this has any bearing on anything, but I'm an IN*J. I'm on the T/F line there.

First, can your mother provide evidence that the choices you're making for yourself are wrong or disordered in some way? If she can't provide clear evidence that her way or any other way of going about your life and making decisions is clearly better and that you're harming yourself in some way, then she really has no ground to stand on.

Also, I don't think anyone can brainwash himself/herself anyway, as you are fully aware of what your intent is. People are defined by their choices, and even your parents have seen and commented that you have clearly been making your own choices. Why should it bother them if the choices you make for yourself are 'more narrow' than the choices they would make if they were in your place? Have they, even once, demonstrated that you'd be harming yourself or your happiness with these alleged 'narrow choices'?

The crux here is that your parents obviously love you and are concerned for you. That's great, but often parents get upset when they find their children deviating from how they were raised- and they often don't like the feeling that they have lost control. That's the real issue.

You're just going to have to reiterate to your parents that you love them, but be firm that they should simply accept that when it comes to your life you've decided that you have a spiritual need that only God can fulfill and that you have obviously come to the opposite conclusion than them on the topic of God's existence and your corresponding life choices. It is nothing against them and your family and friends; but their love- as wonderful as it is- just isn't enough to fulfill all of the needs in your life.

Also- if I were you- don't think for a minute that I wouldn't use the argument that if you were gay, or dating someone they didn't like, or anything else- that they likely wouldn't be as pushy with you at all- and that they do need to back off on this if they would like to maintain a pleasant familial relationship.

It can be hard. It will require lots of prayer and patience. My family wasn't happy when I decided to become an Orthodox Christian (and they're Christian). It was acceptable when they thought it was a phase, but conversion and the changes and personal decisions that went with it? My mother had a cow.

ETA: Regarding Christians whose views deviate from your own significantly- I would try to find a group/church that isn't 'wonky' to attend. I've been in wonky churches before and it is an exercise in patience.

 

[Begat]

Thanks for your lovely advice, everyone. And for your general kindness and understanding, and all the time you took to write such long posts! The list of things to reflect on was especially useful, Parsley.

I basically understand:
1) That there is a difference between faith and religion, and that what I should be pursuing is faith.
2) That parents just worry when their kids don't grow up like they did.
3) That this '1st generation' experience with parents is fairly common amongst gen 1-ers.
4) That my parents can't see things from the perspective of a child of God and their speaking accords with the fashions of the times.
5) That going to a 'wonky' church is going to be trying.
6) That faith and prayer and the Word of God are the important thing.
7) That it's good to see where I might have to check myself.

As for the whole 'church or no church debate' - I understand, LoricaLady, that if you have made a deliberate personal decision not to go to church, you will also be keen to defend it. I don't want to attack that decision if you've come to the conclusion that this is God's best for you. However, I say this with the understanding that you would have used Scripture to find out what God's best is with the Scripture itself as a starting point, as opposed to what some people do, which is make a decision about what they think God's best will be and then 'interpret' Scripture after the event so that it will be seen to affirm that they were right.

I myself am inclined to disagree with you. No matter how bad some church services are, during the times in my life when for an extended period I didn't contribute to the work of the body of Christ as one of its parts, I was much more unstable in my faith, and I had no sense of where my ministry to God's people lay because I didn't know their needs. We're members of the body of Christ - so I think we should work together, and the local church is probably the most ergonomic way to do it in a sustainable way that can enable long-lasting relationships between real people who are in each other's lives. That said, I don't think that the body of Christ can only exist inside a church building. I think it can be anywhere believers live out their faith in community and service to one another. But churches, in the conventional sense, can be wonderful springboards for service, hubs of general society in the Christian world, places where friends can be met, centres of corporate worship, and watering holes for the Word, in the way that parachurch organisations often can't be because they're either permanent, or have very specific goals that mean they can't leave much space for the more general life stuff.

People often point out to me that when Paul used the word "you" in his letters, it was plural. We are a royal priesthood and a holy nation - that I know. A priesthood and a nation are collective things - so I think it's good if our patterns of interaction as Christians evince that we are a collective. The body of Christ is supposed to be such that if one part suffers, the whole body suffers - and who's to know whether the body is not suffering if we do not see each other? I can't see how we're going to be a blessing to each other unless we use the opportunities we have to be around each other, however cack-handed the sermons are or how awkward the small-talk at the end is. On a personal level I'm very introverted and so I find social situations with lots of people difficult; the idea of not going to church at all is sometimes appealing to me when that side of me kicks in which doesn't like hard work. But I'm convinced that it's still worth trying.