finite punishment for finite sin

mercyfollowsme said:

There is only one unforgivable sin, but it doesn't follow that even that would need an infinite punishment.

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Yet there are a multitude of multitudes of sins not forgiven, (and multitudes of people resurrected to shame and judgment)
and
whether it is infinite punishment or not depends on YHWH.
YHWH never says anything in HIS WORD about infinite active punishment.

Day of Atonement:
2 goats were brought before God. One was sacrificed for the sins of the people---this one represented Jesus. The blood of the goat was used to sprinkle on the veil and on the ark. His blood, likewise, is brought before God and cleanses the sinner of sin.
But there was more. The 2nd goat was brought in---the High Priest placed his hands upon the head of the live goat, the scapegoat, and transferred the sins of the people to the goat.

Lev 16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
Lev 16:22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.


Now, the sins had been cleansed from the people by the blood of the sacrificial goat, as the blood of Jesus cleanses the sinner-----Then why the scapegoat? Why transfer those sins unto the scapegoat? The scapegoat is Satan---all the sins that Jesus blood cleansed will be placed upon him, and he pays the penalty---he will be held accountable for the sins that Jesus cleansed, His death pays the death penalty that the sinners were forgiven for. All our sins He is held accountable for. The scapegoat is sent out into the wilderness---as Satan will be bound for 1000 years before His death in the lake of fire, just as the scapegoat will eventually die in the wilderness and the sins with it.
Those that do not have their sins cleansed, must pay the death penalty on their own.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Death is the penalty for sin--imposed from the very beginning. Death--not eternal separation from God--separation from God happened right then and there and they would never again have the same relationship with God as they had before the fall. The penalty was and always has been death. And it will be paid for in the lake of fire---the 2nd death. Not a 2nd separation---death, annihilation.

mmksparbud said:

The scapegoat is Satan

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never

yeshuaslavejeff said:

never

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LOL---who do you think it represents??

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Let's see what Scripture says, seek the FATHER's WILL and HIS KINGDOM,
and go by what HE says all the time, okay ?
Do not add to, nor take away, from what HIS WORD says; as HIS WORD warns.

Read again what SIN HE SAYS IS NOT FORGIVABLE in the verse in question,
and
compare this to what SIN IS FORGIVABLE , from HIS WORD.
Perhaps see how many times Y'SHUA and YHWH'S WORD says one or the other - HE did not confuse the sin that IS FORGIVABLE with the sin that IS NOT FORGIVABLE.

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I, today in fact, commited a sin that I know is wrong. I have knowledge of that fact, I beleive I have been forgiven for it before.
On your interpretation of what the Word of God has said; am I lost?

Anguspure said:

I, today in fact, commited a sin that I know is wrong. I have knowledge of that fact, I beleive I have been forgiven for it before.
On your interpretation of what the Word of God has said; am I lost?

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I never interpret HIS WORD.
No one should.
You know in your heart, by the SPIRIT YHWH GIVES, if you are HIS.
If you're not, you might think you are.
So there's a paradox. A WONDERFUL , BEAUTIFUL PARADOX.
Both the saved born again, and the unsaved, not born again,
may think they are saved.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

I never interpret HIS WORD.
No one should.
You know in your heart, by the SPIRIT YHWH GIVES, if you are HIS.
If you're not, you might think you are.
So there's a paradox. A WONDERFUL , BEAUTIFUL PARADOX.
Both the saved born again, and the unsaved, not born again,
may think they are saved.

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You have not answered the question, the answer of which will determine whether many are wasting their time or not?

Anguspure said:

You have not answered the question, the answer of which will determine whether many are wasting their time or not?

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YHWH says separating/ winnowing the tares is the job of HIS ANGEL at the appointed time.
HE didn't tell us to do that.

We must rest in the blood of Christ and rely on that alone. It says if you confess your sin that he is just and willing to forgive you. Christ already atoned for it. All that's left is for you to know and accept that it was wrong and to rely on His spirit to do a good work inside of you. A contrite spirit is good. Don't punish yourself but a little godly sorrow is ok. But don't forget the joy and peace of salvation. Joy is happiness that comes from a sense of wellbeing. As long as you know Christ paid it all, you will have joy. Joy helps us through the sorrow. Once you confess and repent though, it is done. You're free. Part of repenting is amending your life which means making lifestyle alterations to prevent the sin again. This may mean breaking off friendships, not visiting certain places or not putting yourself in risky social situations. Give no provision for the flesh.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

YHWH says separating/ winnowing the tares is the job of HIS ANGEL at the appointed time.
HE didn't tell us to do that.

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By suggesting to many that they have lost the game forever, on a technicality, you have already poured weed killer on the crop.

The bible is not fictional allegories. If the bible is a work of fiction to you the the gospel would be a work of fiction to you. You cannot be saved by a work of fiction. Please don't claim to be Christian if you believe the bible to be fiction. It only causes harm and furthers Satan's cause. The bible is the sword of the spirit, our ultimate weapon against Satan's lies and our own flesh. If you cannot trust and rely on your weapons, you will only succumb to the enemy.

humblescribe said:

The bible is not fictional allegories. If the bible is a work of fiction to you the the gospel would be a work of fiction to you. You cannot be saved by a work of fiction. Please don't claim to be Christian if you believe the bible to be fiction. It only causes harm and furthers Satan's cause. The bible is the sword of the spirit, our ultimate weapon against Satan's lies and our own flesh. If you cannot trust and rely on your weapons, you will only succumb to the enemy.

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The Word of God is our sword and His name is Jesus. The bible tells us all about Him and is authoritive on the matters of God, is inspired by God and is true about Him, but we should not confuse the description with the reality.

mercyfollowsme said:

Hi

Anyone else think that finite punishment should be fitting for finite sin. Its not like the Bible mentions infinite punishment, only that time in hell is everlasting. Can the 2 be separated?

Or can you get out of hell like some of those people who have near death experiences and go to hell first?

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1. no getting out of hell alive. It is the "second death" not the "second life".
2. But Luke 12:46-48 does indicate degrees of punishment rather than infinite torture for all.

Anguspure said:

By suggesting to many that they have lost the game forever, on a technicality, you have already poured weed killer on the crop.

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You idea of a technicality you will have to bring up with Y'SHUA.
It is HIS WORD you seem to want to pick apart or change.
The penalty for sin is still death.
That never changed.
Nor did any of HIS WORD.

Eternal life ? YHWH'S KINGDOM ? STILL FREE IN HIM ! TO EVERYONE WHO COMES TO HIM AS HE SAYS !

yeshuaslavejeff said:

You idea of a technicality you will have to bring up with Y'SHUA. It is HIS WORD you seem to want to pick apart or change.

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Didn't our Lord say that God would destroy both body and soul in hell?

The penalty for sin is still death.

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And not eternal life under torture.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

You idea of a technicality you will have to bring up with Y'SHUA.
It is HIS WORD you seem to want to pick apart or change.
The penalty for sin is still death.
That never changed.
Nor did any of HIS WORD.

Eternal life ? YHWH'S KINGDOM ? STILL FREE IN HIM ! TO EVERYONE WHO COMES TO HIM AS HE SAYS !

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Nevertheless it is our jib to scatter seed for the kingdom and He tells us the the gift of salvation is free to all who repent. It is only the act of continued unrepetence that cannot be forgiven and this only because the person does want forgivness. This is the meaning of the passage that is all to often used as yet another stumbling block for those who have already stumbled on the road.

Anguspure said:

It is only the act of continued unrepentance that cannot be forgiven

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Right! That's what is written.
Not as if stumbling is unusual or rare even~! ......

Anguspure said:

This is the meaning of the passage that is all to often used as yet another stumbling block for those who have already stumbled on the road.

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This passage (we started out about) doesn't refer to stumbling though,

it refers to those who do as it is written in this passage - there is no longer any sacrifice for their sins:
Note it is written in the person "we"/ "[our]"
as a [very stern] warning for the writer and the reader themselves/ourselves.:
YHWH'S WORD HERE let's us know what CAN happen to US as well as anyone else.

26 For if we go on deliberately and willingly sinning
after once acquiring the knowledge of the Truth
, there is no longer any sacrifice left to atone for [our] sins [no further offering to which to look forward].

27 [There is nothing left for us then] but a kind of awful and fearful prospect and expectation of divine judgment and the fury of burning wrath and indignation which will consume those who put themselves in opposition [to God].

Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)

mercyfollowsme said:

Hi

Anyone else think that finite punishment should be fitting for finite sin. Its not like the Bible mentions infinite punishment, only that time in hell is everlasting. Can the 2 be separated?

Or can you get out of hell like some of those people who have near death experiences and go to hell first?

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I think the eternal nature of hell is tied up with the fact that people don't stop sinning. So in hell if in fact one pays 60 or so years of sinning on earth by 60 years of torment in hell, what about any additional sins they committed during those 60 years of torment?

It's an unending cycle in hell. Sin and torment, more sin, more torment.

OneChristianLight said:

I disagree with the idea that hell is punishment from God for the unsaved.

A person is given a choice in life: either to repent of their sins and accept Jesus as their savior, or to persist in ungodliness. When someone chooses the latter, he or she chooses hell by default. In other words, it's up to us whether we accept or reject salvation, and punishment from God plays no part for the unsaved. The choice is ours.

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Then what of God's judgment?
Is not God a God of justice?