Find the enemy...

[razeontherock]

I thought it was only after the fall, when they had knowledge of good and evil that they gained a conscience (and need of one).

This is interesting. I don't see the Bible saying anything about conscience with regard to this event, either way. I've been meaning to ask Antz about his statement "tree of conscience" anyway; this is the perfect occasion.

 

[oi_antz]

I thought it was only after the fall, when they had knowledge of good and evil that they gained a conscience (and need of one). But there are probably a number of interpretations...

Good call Ray. I am sorry DomainRider, I had carelessly used the word "conscience" when in fact all they did was disobey a single command that God had given them. I'll shoot back to the post and rephrase it now..

Edit, here it is:

The most interesting thing about the story of Adam and Eve is that the serpent is still here with us. Remember what the serpent did? He tricked the human into committing a sinful act by saying "you can have xxx if you just disobey what God told you". In terms of the OP, this is the sort of idea that needs consideration.

 

[razeontherock]

If you really understand, perhaps you could explain how the spirit world influences the material world? The material world is physical, and the basic mechanisms of the physical are well understood down to the subatomic level - so how does the spirit world affect the physical? what is the mechanism?

There are an incredible variety of ways to address this. I'm going to pick 2:

1) Ordinarily, that mechanism is people. The gist of your conversation is how G-d (or other spirits) affect people, or not. What you need to look at is objective, then it becomes much clearer.

2) You're basically saying if G-d can't be put in a test tube, you won't believe He exists. Well, G-d can't be put in a test tube.

 

[oi_antz]

This is interesting. I don't see the Bible saying anything about conscience with regard to this event, either way. I've been meaning to ask Antz about his statement "tree of conscience" anyway; this is the perfect occasion.

Tree of conscience comes from Genesis 2:9 of The Living Bible © 1971, it has since been republished as New Living Translation where the phrase "tree of conscience" is not used. I must make an effort to be aware of this.

 

[razeontherock]

Thanks! I'm less interested in what one version translates it as, and more interested in the Author's original intent (Seeking Truth, you know.)
One valid way of doing that is to check with other believers. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but the Word seems to support this connection between the tree or partaking of it, and the conscience: John 3:19, the condemnation that Light has come into the world, and men prefer darkness because our deeds are evil; 1 Timothy 4:2 which speaks of "seared with a hot iron."

 

[oi_antz]

Thanks! I'm less interested in what one version translates it as, and more interested in the Author's original intent (Seeking Truth, you know.)
One valid way of doing that is to check with other believers. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but the Word seems to support this connection between the tree or partaking of it, and the conscience: John 3:19, the condemnation that Light has come into the world, and men prefer darkness because our deeds are evil; 1 Timothy 4:2 which speaks of "seared with a hot iron."

Yes, I suppose we are inspired to think a bit more when we have so many variations at hand.

DomainRider, BleedingHeart and JGG (if you are still with us), I just came across another passage that says God will not turn you away if you choose to obey Him:

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

So you see that Jesus has taken the first step by giving you the world as your oyster. When you one day realize that there must be more to life than just observing atoms and far-off planets, you can take the next step which He says is to obey Him.

Jesus is a good guy, He isn't going to make you feel bad for admitting that you want to love Him. Only a person who doesn't have any love for you will treat you that way

 

[DomainRider]

By the way, what makes you think sheep don't think?

'To follow like sheep' - it's a figure of speech, suggesting blind or thoughtless group behaviour. I mentioned it because, as I said at the time, what you meant by your reference to sheep and goats wasn't clear to me, so I was suggesting possible meanings to try to clarify it. Judging from your response, you weren't using 'sheep and goats' in that way, so I still don't know what you meant.

I did explain it, I just said I'm not going to waste time describing it. Here it is again:

"I'm not going to waste time trying to describe it. You can ask God for it and receive the enlightenment in one single thought - that is, if you really want to."

OK, looks like we're on completely different wavelengths here.

No it is objectively real before they believed it.

If so, then there should be objective evidence for it - have you any examples of such evidence?

I'd like to hear you explain why you made the comment that sheep don't think.

See explanation above.

 

[DomainRider]

Based on the assumptions of people who would like to prove it false, and don't recognize what was actually said about it. So, their conclusions are meaningless.

We're still talking about the flood and Noah's ark here aren't we?

If so, AIUI, the version generally used is that in the King James bible. Is that not suitable?

 

[DomainRider]

There are an incredible variety of ways to address this. I'm going to pick 2:

1) Ordinarily, that mechanism is people. The gist of your conversation is how G-d (or other spirits) affect people, or not. What you need to look at is objective, then it becomes much clearer.

The question was asking how people are influenced, i.e. what are the mechanics of the process by which this is achieved... I don't see how 'people' describes that mechanism any more than 'God/spirits' does. To make a crude analogy, people drive cars - the equivalent question would be 'how? what is the mechanism by which this is achieved?' a useful answer might include a description of how the steering wheel, gas pedal, and brakes control the car.

2) You're basically saying if G-d can't be put in a test tube, you won't believe He exists. Well, G-d can't be put in a test tube.

I'm not exactly saying that. It's a process of inductive logic. Anything that affects the physical world must itself be physical, or have some physical component to effect that influence. This means that, in principle, it is detectable and can be measured. If it cannot itself be directly detected in practice, then its physical effects must be detectable and measurable. If this is not the case, then it is reasonable to say that there is no physical influence, because physical change is, by definition, observable - therefore detectable. The fundamental ways in which matter can be influenced are known - interactions are governed by the four fundamental forces, acting independently or in concert. These forces and their effects can be detected and measured.

So if you say something (say, God) influences people (changes them in some material way), then the physical component causing the material effect should be detectable and measurable, as should the results of its action.

That God can't be put in a test-tube may be literally true, but if God can influence the physical world, then that influence must be detectable and measurable.

 

[DomainRider]

So you see that Jesus has taken the first step by giving you the world as your oyster. When you one day realize that there must be more to life than just observing atoms and far-off planets, you can take the next step which He says is to obey Him.

Jesus is a good guy, He isn't going to make you feel bad for admitting that you want to love Him. Only a person who doesn't have any love for you will treat you that way

There are countless other religions and cults, both monotheist and polytheist, from Scientology to Neopaganism, from Islam to Shinto, making similar sounding claims and offers. I haven't heard anything that makes the offer and claims that you have presented any more believable than those others, nor have I seen any credible evidence that they are realistic claims and offers. Having grown up in one of these religious groups and finding nothing credible in its core belief structure, I simply don't see any need for such beliefs. This doesn't stop me being curious as to why people have these beliefs, and the different forms they take.

 

[oi_antz]

That God can't be put in a test-tube may be literally true, but if God can influence the physical world, then that influence must be detectable and measurable.

Just wondering, how does science detect a thought?

 

[oi_antz]

'To follow like sheep' - it's a figure of speech, suggesting blind or thoughtless group behaviour. I mentioned it because, as I said at the time, what you meant by your reference to sheep and goats wasn't clear to me, so I was suggesting possible meanings to try to clarify it. Judging from your response, you weren't using 'sheep and goats' in that way, so I still don't know what you meant.

If so, then there should be objective evidence for it - have you any examples of such evidence?

I consider an empty tomb with no forthcoming accounts from secular realms to be evidence enough. Perhaps you will refute this evidence if you have more faith in your fellow Godless humanity. I happen to put my faith in God-fearing humanity.

There are countless other religions and cults, both monotheist and polytheist, from Scientology to Neopaganism, from Islam to Shinto, making similar sounding claims and offers. I haven't heard anything that makes the offer and claims that you have presented any more believable than those others, nor have I seen any credible evidence that they are realistic claims and offers. Having grown up in one of these religious groups and finding nothing credible in its core belief structure, I simply don't see any need for such beliefs. This doesn't stop me being curious as to why people have these beliefs, and the different forms they take.

You are a big boy, I trust you can make your own decision about this. It would be good to investigate the benefits of believing these other prophets. As you ought to know, Jesus doesn't promise to make your life easier than you have already made it, but He does promise to give you life everlasting in the new earth where there is no serpent and where He is everyone's chosen leader. You have the option to join Him should you want to, all you have to do is obey Him. I'm sure I've said this to you before, this is Jesus' attitude about it:

“Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

This has a couple of deep meanings. Firstly you can be in favor or disfavor of Jesus. Therefore "for" or "against" Him. From all that you've shown me you are "for" Him. The next part draws a line in the sand "whoever does not gather with me scatters". So, either you can become a branch on Jesus' vine or you can go out and join someone else. There are many vines out there that you can graft on to, but there is only one true vine that is everlasting. Jesus said He is the true vine:

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

Notice the last verse says "ask whatever you wish and it will be done for you". This is another promise. This should get you thinking about why Christians stick with Jesus if His word was not faithful. It is because His words are faithful and true, and anything we ask for is provided to us. I will ask for a wife soon, but first I am planning to go to bible college next semester

So I don't know where this leaves you in your search for truth, is there anything further I can help you with?

 

[razeontherock]

We're still talking about the flood and Noah's ark here aren't we?

If so, AIUI, the version generally used is that in the King James bible. Is that not suitable?

Please re-read my post. The part about your heralded scientists assuming all sorts of things to jump to their conclusions. Things that were never said. tends to throw conclusions off, you know.

 

[razeontherock]

The question was asking how people are influenced

NOPE! You asked, and I quote, how the spiritual world affects the physical. And I told you, point blank, that the ordinary means is PEOPLE.

Now if you don't want a direct and true answer, you shouldn't be asking Christians.

I'm not exactly saying that. It's a process of inductive logic. Anything that affects the physical world must itself be physical, or have some physical component to effect that influence.

You're simply wrong, and have come along far too late to even try to tell me that. Your lack of experience does not wipe out everything I've learned; nor any of it, for that matter.

So if you say something (say, God) influences people (changes them in some material way), then the physical component causing the material effect should be detectable and measurable, as should the results of its action.

Material effects can be created by the non-physical; G-d is a Spirit.

 

[DomainRider]

Just wondering, how does science detect a thought?

This is an interesting area of research.

A bit of background may help: The area of the brain associated with thought is the cortex (the outer, convoluted part), especially the frontal cortex (behind the forehead). The cortex contains about 16 billion neurons, the cells that do the brain's work. Each of these connects to about 10,000 neighbouring neurons, so a single cc of cortex contains as many connections as there are stars in our galaxy (200-400 billion). Each neuron can receive signals from other neurons and send signals to others through these connections. The signals are various patterns or bursts of electro-chemical pulses. When a neuron receives a certain number of incoming pulses, it will trigger and 'fire' off its own pulses to neurons down the line.

Thoughts are the synchronised activity of neurons right across the cortex. Recently, a new generation of brain scanners (not unlike hospital MRI scanners) has been able to detect neurons that are active, and image them, so it is possible to track and see the waves of neuron activity sweeping across the cortex in real time, and to correlate patterns and areas of activity with thoughts and sensations. It is already possible to read directly out of the brain what someone is seeing, by scanning the occipital lobe (the visual processing area at the back of the head). For example, if someone is looking at text, a scan of their brain can determine what letters they are seeing.

As for thoughts, it's early days, and there is not yet a general way to translate the neural activity patterns of thought into descriptions of thoughts, but by recording the activity when someone is thinking about or feeling something specific, it is possible to subsequently detect when they are thinking those thoughts again because the patterns of neural activity are similar. So once 'trained', the system can tell what someone is thinking. It is also possible to suppress the activity in a particular part of the cortex, so that certain thoughts or thought patterns are selectively suppressed.

At present, the resolution is low, and these systems must be trained for each individual and their thought patterns, but it is (crudely) possible to detect someone's thoughts, and in specific cases, what they are actually thinking about.

Progress in this area is extremely rapid, and there are all kinds of valuable spin-offs, such as direct thought control of prosthetic limbs, wheelchairs, and computers for the disabled, and potential for detecting and disrupting abnormal thought patterns in people with severe behavioural problems. Imagine being able to forestall severe depressive, manic, or psychotic episodes by recognising the thought patterns associated with their onset, and stimulating the brain so as to prevent the undesired patterns continuing.

Of course there are a lot of moral and ethical questions raised by the growing ability to detect, recognise, and even (possibly) modify thought patterns.

 

[razeontherock]

The cortex contains about 16 billion neurons,

a single cc of cortex contains as many connections as there are stars in our galaxy (200-400 billion).

Conflict resolution Dep't. - clean-up, aisle four!

At present, the resolution is low, and these systems must be trained for each individual and their thought patterns, but it is (crudely) possible to detect someone's thoughts, and in specific cases, what they are actually thinking about.

Emphasis on the crudely. More likely a general topic and an emotion if powerful enough, than a specific thought. Please note none of this has anything to do with the subject under discussion, which is how G-d influences His Creation.

Interesting post!

 

[Criada]

Mod Hat On​

Closing this, it has run its course.
This isn't a debate forum folks, and only Christians are allowed to reply to the OP.


Mod Hat Off​