Find the enemy...

[DomainRider]

If you are looking at life from an atheistic perspective then you will certainly see existence as a collection of atoms with "no apparent purpose". The thing is that in doing so you have decided to reject a crucial part of the world we live in, which is God's word.

It wasn't really an explicit decision to reject, more simply not being involved any more. As I have said, I was brought up RC and enjoyed many aspects of it, but the religious essence of it, the miracles and mysteries and the idea of God and Jesus, never seemed much more than stories - exercises of the imagination. As I child, I prayed and thought about God because that is what I'd been told to do; it was just an exercise - I never really 'got' it. As I grew up, was no longer under the cultural pressure of that environment, it all became less relevant and dropped away, just as had my other childhood fantasy beliefs, the tooth fairy, Santa-Claus, etc. I also realised my morality was quite independent of religion. Later came the understanding of other religious belief systems, and the evolutionary basis for our inclination to magical beliefs, superstition, and religion.

Add that into the equation and we discover that this well-ordered collection of atoms does have an apparent purpose, it's just not perceivable when you choose to eliminate a certain part of the world from consideration.

I certainly don't eliminate the religious world from consideration - I just interpret it differently from believers. I recognise plenty of purpose in the world - we all have personal, familial, cultural, and social purposes and aspirations. Purpose is our interpretation of behavioural drivers in terms of intentionality, a high-level convenience abstraction.

Do you wonder though why a Christian's square one has God?

Not really, no. I do wonder at the strength of the need to believe. It clearly carried an important selection advantage.

Because they have had experiences that have proven God is real.

Many people have experiences of things they believe are proven real but for which there is no objective evidence.

So why is there a discrepancy, surely if God is real then He would give everyone ample opportunity to discover Him, otherwise they would be justified to believe that He is not real and we wouldn't have Christians who believe that God has told them to go and tell people about the reality of God. I hope you are following me

I'm with you...

The one who obeys me is the one who loves me; and because he loves me my Father will love him; and I will too, and I will reveal myself to him.

So we see here that Jesus does not reveal Himself to just anyone, and there is only one way that we can have Jesus' presence in our lives, that is to obey Him.

It's a paradoxical chicken-and-egg problem; you have to obey the instructions of a being you don't believe in before he will reveal himself sufficiently for you to believe in him...

To me that is saying that if you actively immerse yourself in a certain kind of fiction deeply enough and for long enough, you will start to believe it and it will become real for you. I think that this is generally true, and applies to many fictions, not just religious ones.

Our brains are predisposed to this kind of belief, from superstitions, conspiracy theories, alien abductions, paranormal phenomena, cults, religions, etc. People's tendency to such beliefs, like so many aspects of human behaviour and physiology, seems to follow a Normal Distribution - a few are very susceptible to such thinking, most are fairly so, and a few are not very susceptible. I seem to be on the less susceptible side of the distribution in this regard - my magical-thinking tendencies seem to be restricted to a few minor anxiety related superstitious behaviours (that often amuse me).

So if you ever come across the scripture that you know is the one thing that you don't want to obey, then you've found the narrow gate and when you decide to obey Jesus then He will come to you and give you answers to your questions like "what is the purpose of such a well-ordered collection of atoms".

But I don't have any questions about purpose; I don't believe there is any purpose beyond what we ascribe for ourselves. Also, I have no more inclination to obey Jesus than I do Odin or Ra, and there are many strictures in many holy books and scriptures that I don't want to obey. I have my set of morals that fit passably well with the society I live in, and outside of that have no reason to obey some stricture I don't even want to obey.

If you found some stricture that you didn't want to obey in, for example, the Upanishads, would you decide to obey it just because a Hindu believer told you it was important and would answer a question that you haven't asked because you think it's meaningless?

I hope this helps, I just thought it was pertinent to mention that dismissing what God says is to dismiss a part of the picture that will give you the understanding you desire. I hope you find it interesting.

Thanks, I have found it helpful and interesting, and it has shown me how difficult it appears to be, for many believers, from the inside of their belief system, to view the world from any other perspective. Hence, to the outsider, many arguments attempting to objectively validate or promulgate the belief system appear circular or paradoxical, as they are predicated on the axioms of that very belief system.

 

[razeontherock]

This is one of the more genuine dialogs we've had here of late!

As I child, I prayed and thought about God because that is what I'd been told to do; it was just an exercise - I never really 'got' it. As I grew up, was no longer under the cultural pressure of that environment, it all became less relevant and dropped away, just as had my other childhood fantasy beliefs, the tooth fairy, Santa-Claus, etc.

This generally is my main issue not only w/ the RCC, but any of the stained glass window varieties of Christianity. Where's the beef?

 

[oi_antz]

It wasn't really an explicit decision to reject, more simply not being involved any more. As I have said, I was brought up RC and enjoyed many aspects of it, but the religious essence of it, the miracles and mysteries and the idea of God and Jesus, never seemed much more than stories - exercises of the imagination.

Wow! Did you actually witness miracles? I've seen a handful, but man if you can conclude God is not real after witnessing a miracle then you've really caught a bad flu. Can you describe the miracles you have witnessed?

As I child, I prayed and thought about God because that is what I'd been told to do; it was just an exercise - I never really 'got' it. As I grew up, was no longer under the cultural pressure of that environment, it all became less relevant and dropped away, just as had my other childhood fantasy beliefs, the tooth fairy, Santa-Claus, etc. I also realised my morality was quite independent of religion. Later came the understanding of other religious belief systems, and the evolutionary basis for our inclination to magical beliefs, superstition, and religion.

Well it sounds to me that you have never had Jesus actually become real in your life as He is describing in the quote I showed you. I know that when I gave my life to Him last year, He fluttered down into my room like a dove and said "I will never leave you". At that point I knew that there is a difference between having Jesus in your life and believing that Jesus is real. One is a reality of God in your life, the other is just wishful.

I certainly don't eliminate the religious world from consideration - I just interpret it differently from believers. I recognise plenty of purpose in the world - we all have personal, familial, cultural, and social purposes and aspirations. Purpose is our interpretation of behavioural drivers in terms of intentionality, a high-level convenience abstraction.

Oh that is lovely, it is so splendid to see that your particular well-formed collection of atoms has been able to resonate well. If you were to observe the motives of love and hate behind the way these atoms behave toward each other, do you think maybe you would be roused to see that the way these well-formed collection of atoms are possibly being manipulated by non-atomic forces, IE spiritual forces?

Not really, no. I do wonder at the strength of the need to believe. It clearly carried an important selection advantage.


Many people have experiences of things they believe are proven real but for which there is no objective evidence.

I'm with you...

.

It's a paradoxical chicken-and-egg problem; you have to obey the instructions of a being you don't believe in before he will reveal himself sufficiently for you to believe in him...

Well it is a chicken and egg situation. The command has been issued (that is the chicken), you are now expected to obey (which is the egg). But that is just one way to look at it, and it is a human way, so let us look at the remainder of the passage where that quote came from because that is the way Jesus wants us to look at it:

21 Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.”
22 Judas (not Judas Iscariot, but the other disciple with that name) said to him, “Lord, why are you going to reveal yourself only to us and not to the world at large?”

23 Jesus replied, “All who love me will do what I say. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with each of them. 24 Anyone who doesn’t love me will not obey me. And remember, my words are not my own. What I am telling you is from the Father who sent me. 25 I am telling you these things now while I am still with you. 26 But when the Father sends the Advocate as my representative—that is, the Holy Spirit—he will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I have told you.

Notice here the key thing being that those who love Jesus will obey Him. This is why I think you need to investigate what is the problem you have with accepting The Bible. It must be something very personal that you don't want to accept in The Bible, and I'm sure it's more than simply believing in creation vs evolution, because that isn't what Jesus taught. He taught that from the heart comes all perversion and wickedness, and I would expect that you would be in agreement with His teachings. So this is why I told you that if you can find the part in the Bible that shows you don't want to obey Jesus then you've found the narrow gate.

To me that is saying that if you actively immerse yourself in a certain kind of fiction deeply enough and for long enough, you will start to believe it and it will become real for you. I think that this is generally true, and applies to many fictions, not just religious ones.

I think you need to be careful not to close your mind to the reality of the world for what it is. There's an enormous stack of evidence by scholars that have proven that The Bible is not fictional, and that the prophecies do come true. I think if you did some unbiased research into the credibility of religious texts, you would find that the Bible does stand up to strutiny, and it's perhaps just a bit invonvenient for some people who aren't quite ready to accept that. See the key word here is "inconvenience", which is our biggest problem when we don't agree with God, we find His standard of "good" is somewhat "inconvenient".

Our brains are predisposed to this kind of belief, from superstitions, conspiracy theories, alien abductions, paranormal phenomena, cults, religions, etc. People's tendency to such beliefs, like so many aspects of human behaviour and physiology, seems to follow a Normal Distribution - a few are very susceptible to such thinking, most are fairly so, and a few are not very susceptible. I seem to be on the less susceptible side of the distribution in this regard - my magical-thinking tendencies seem to be restricted to a few minor anxiety related superstitious behaviours (that often amuse me).

That will be to your advantage, I'm quite the same as you describe, I don't believe in superstitions etc. You should also know that these characteristics can be enhanced or subdued by time and experience itself. We only ever are a product of our experience. So if you did decide to obey Jesus (and you will know when you've made that decision), then Jesus will know you have lived up to your end of the promise and He will live up to His end of the promise and "My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with each of them.", and then you'll be Christian. True Christian? Probably because you entered by the narrow gate that leads to life, and you are walking the straight narrow path which is difficult but it leads to life. Of course, if you just want to be rich, go to Bible college and learn to become a pastor then you can open a church and fleece your own flock. No-one's going to stop you are they? You don't actually have to enter the narrow gate to call yourself Christian, but if you want to belong to Jesus and have Him in your life, that is what you must do: obey Him.

But I don't have any questions about purpose; I don't believe there is any purpose beyond what we ascribe for ourselves. Also, I have no more inclination to obey Jesus than I do Odin or Ra, and there are many strictures in many holy books and scriptures that I don't want to obey. I have my set of morals that fit passably well with the society I live in, and outside of that have no reason to obey some stricture I don't even want to obey.

You're welcome to voyage beyond life armed with your own knowledge (if that will help), as for me I trust Jesus when He says it best in Matthew 7:24-29 because He is the only one who has managed to find the path to God and to become the first son of God.

If you found some stricture that you didn't want to obey in, for example, the Upanishads, would you decide to obey it just because a Hindu believer told you it was important and would answer a question that you haven't asked because you think it's meaningless?

No, I know that Jesus has authority over the other gods.

Thanks, I have found it helpful and interesting, and it has shown me how difficult it appears to be, for many believers, from the inside of their belief system, to view the world from any other perspective. Hence, to the outsider, many arguments attempting to objectively validate or promulgate the belief system appear circular or paradoxical, as they are predicated on the axioms of that very belief system.

Yes!! You are completely correct! When I received healing from The Lord I was instantly outraged just how deceived the enemy had made me but more outraged that others are so deceived by the enemy too. Yet, it has been only a year following Jesus and already I have lost the memory of how it felt to be so outraged, and it only took a moment to begin thinking in favor of Jesus instead of thinking against Him (as an antichrist believer). Well, just remember the parable of seeking the light:

22 “Your eye is a lamp that provides light for your body. When your eye is good, your whole body is filled with light. 23 But when your eye is bad, your whole body is filled with darkness. And if the light you think you have is actually darkness, how deep that darkness is!

If you do love Jesus, then you will be one who doesn't give up the search until you've got Him in your life. Of course, you might be one who doesn't love Jesus, but I can't see that in your attitude you just must be one of His lost sheep I suppose

 

[DomainRider]

Wow! Did you actually witness miracles? I've seen a handful, but man if you can conclude God is not real after witnessing a miracle then you've really caught a bad flu. Can you describe the miracles you have witnessed?

If you read a little more carefully, you'll see I said:

"the miracles ... never seemed much more than stories - exercises of the imagination."

At that point I knew that there is a difference between having Jesus in your life and believing that Jesus is real. One is a reality of God in your life, the other is just wishful.

Are you saying you can have Jesus in your life without believing that he is real - that believing he is real is 'just wishful'? If not, just what are you saying here?

If you were to observe the motives of love and hate behind the way these atoms behave toward each other, do you think maybe you would be roused to see that the way these well-formed collection of atoms are possibly being manipulated by non-atomic forces, IE spiritual forces?

Depends what you mean by 'spiritual forces'. We have plausible, even convincing, explanations for the majority of observed individual and group behavioural dynamics and how they can arise through variation and natural selection. We also know the neurophysiology of emotional response, so we have good general models of how and why these behaviours and emotional responses may have developed and how and why they are expressed. It's a start. IFAIAA, no plausible evidence has yet been found for 'spiritual forces' being involved, and there doesn't appear to be any requirement for them in the explanatory models.

Having said that, going from collections of atoms to emotional behaviour involves a leap of many levels of abstraction, with novel emergent properties at each level, so there's really no useful direct relation to be made between them, any more than knowing the chemical composition of the cytochrome used in photosynthesis can help you understand why roses have thorns.

Notice here the key thing being that those who love Jesus will obey Him. This is why I think you need to investigate what is the problem you have with accepting The Bible. It must be something very personal that you don't want to accept in The Bible, and I'm sure it's more than simply believing in creation vs evolution, because that isn't what Jesus taught.

To me, the bible is a book of stories, some with a grain of historical truth. I don't have a problem with that - a book is a book. I have nothing personal against it, any more than I have something personal against the Koran, or the Upanishads, or Lord of the Rings for that matter. You seem to think it holds some great truth, I don't. I agree with some of it's moral and ethical statements, and disagree with others.

He taught that from the heart comes all perversion and wickedness, and I would expect that you would be in agreement with His teachings. So this is why I told you that if you can find the part in the Bible that shows you don't want to obey Jesus then you've found the narrow gate.

I'm broadly in agreement with the moral stance attributed to Jesus - in so far as it involves the ethic of reciprocity. However, if following the ethic of reciprocity means I'm obeying Jesus, then I'm also obeying a whole bunch of other prophets and philosophers who promote that ethic. IOW, obedience seems irrelevant, I'm trying to follow my morals and ethics regardless of external pressure. If they mesh with what Jesus requires, fine; but I'm following them for rational objective reasons, not out of blind obedience to anyone.

I think you need to be careful not to close your mind to the reality of the world for what it is. There's an enormous stack of evidence by scholars that have proven that The Bible is not fictional, and that the prophecies do come true.

I am aware that much of the bible has some historical truth, but much of it does not.

I'll reverse your advice and say I think it's you that ought to try to open your mind to see the reality of the world for what it is. The problem with prophesies is that they are ideal candidates for confirmation bias - they tend to be fairly general (lacking specificity), and typically, many prophesies are made - the vast majority of which are never mentioned again. In fact, there's a inverse relation between the specificity of the prophesy and the probability of it being dubbed 'fulfilled'. It's also a classic scam technique of clairvoyants and psychics - make a large number of fairly vague predictions, then scan the news looking for events they can be massaged to fit. The misses are forgotten, but even the 'hits', under scrutiny, are rarely more than ambiguous. Once in a blue moon, they should get one 'right' purely by chance, which then becomes 'proof' of predictive powers. An ancient text that reports both the prophesy and its fulfillment, has the additional credibility problem of requiring independent corroboration of both prophesy and its fulfillment.

I think if you did some unbiased research into the credibility of religious texts, you would find that the Bible does stand up to strutiny, and it's perhaps just a bit invonvenient for some people who aren't quite ready to accept that.

Of course, either side of the debate can say 'well they would say that, wouldn't they?' at this point. I know some of the historical events in the bible are corroborated by independent sources - that's the least one should expect from an historical text. But that doesn't mean it's all true. For example, historical fiction is usually based on real events - which can be independently corroborated, but by definition, the actual story isn't true.

See the key word here is "inconvenience", which is our biggest problem when we don't agree with God, we find His standard of "good" is somewhat "inconvenient".

There are many historians and biblical scholars who argue constantly over the historical veracity of various parts of the bible. Consider, for a moment, who has the largest vested interest in this debate - the researcher or scholar with no related religious belief, or the one who's belief is intimately tied to the veracity of the story? Which one would find it 'inconvenient' if the story was unverifiable or falsified? Of course, there are scholars with an opposing vested religious interest, but my point is that it's not nearly the one-sided argument you suggest.

That will be to your advantage, I'm quite the same as you describe, I don't believe in superstitions etc.

You should be aware that religious belief is generally described as an example of superstitious or magical thinking by those who study this area of psychology. Just sayin'

We only ever are a product of our experience.

A product of our experience and our genetics.

You don't actually have to enter the narrow gate to call yourself Christian, but if you want to belong to Jesus and have Him in your life, that is what you must do: obey Him.

But why would I want to do that - because you believe it?

You're welcome to voyage beyond life armed with your own knowledge (if that will help)

Beyond life, I will be dead.

as for me I trust Jesus when He says it best in Matthew 7:24-29 because He is the only one who has managed to find the path to God and to become the first son of God.

That's what the book says... how do we know which books to trust, and which parts of them to trust with our lives?

No, I know that Jesus has authority over the other gods.

So there are other gods? - and yours is the top one... I got this image of an MMORPG, like 'World Of Warcraft', where I'm saying 'Dude, it's just a game...' and you're saying 'No way, it's real, and my character is the best!'. Sorry, it was a distraction. The real question is how do you know? (circular arguments excluded).

And if the light you think you have is actually darkness, how deep that darkness is!

And how do you know whether the light you believe you have is actually darkness or not, when you can see nothing else?

If you do love Jesus, then you will be one who doesn't give up the search until you've got Him in your life. Of course, you might be one who doesn't love Jesus, but I can't see that in your attitude you just must be one of His lost sheep I suppose

He seemed to have his heart in the right place, given the times; but that was 2000 years ago. He sounds like a good man, but he's a historical character; my next door neighbor is a lovely bloke - he's actually alive and I've met him - but I don't love him, except in the most general sense of loving the good side of humanity.

 

[oi_antz]

Hi DR, please don't treat me like someone who likes to debate because I don't. I simply like to share things that get us thiking in a new way about things that haven't been fully understood. Should you refuse to consider the food for thought I have found, then so be it at your own risk, since you have ample information to know there is more to life than a "well formed collection of atoms", a collection of well-formed atoms that would prefer to have Barrabas a murderer in it's world than Jesus a rightous preacher.

Anyhow, I'll respond to a couple of things.

If you read a little more carefully, you'll see I said:

"the miracles ... never seemed much more than stories - exercises of the imagination."

Ok, I did misread it, I thought you had dismissed personal miracles. I understand that you think the New Testament is fairy tales, well it's not. People are killed for defending it's integrity.

Are you saying you can have Jesus in your life without believing that he is real - that believing he is real is 'just wishful'? If not, just what are you saying here?

I am saying that not everyone who calls themselves Christian has entered through the narrow gate, they travel the wide road claiming to be Christian but have never departed from their sin and received Jesus as a reality in their life. Here is how Jesus has described it:

“You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it

“Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’

This means that we must be prepared to leave all sin at the narrow gate if we want to follow Jesus. That goes hand in hand with the verse I showed you "he who loves me will obey me and I and my Father will come and make our home with him". That there is only one Jesus Christ, yet there are many false teachers who pervert God's law. You can choose your own teacher, as for me I'm following Jesus and you already know I will believe Him over anyone else.

Depends what you mean by 'spiritual forces'. We have plausible, even convincing, explanations for the majority of observed individual and group behavioural dynamics and how they can arise through variation and natural selection. We also know the neurophysiology of emotional response, so we have good general models of how and why these behaviours and emotional responses may have developed and how and why they are expressed. It's a start. IFAIAA, no plausible evidence has yet been found for 'spiritual forces' being involved, and there doesn't appear to be any requirement for them in the explanatory models.

Having said that, going from collections of atoms to emotional behaviour involves a leap of many levels of abstraction, with novel emergent properties at each level, so there's really no useful direct relation to be made between them, any more than knowing the chemical composition of the cytochrome used in photosynthesis can help you understand why roses have thorns.

Straight over my head, I'm sorry I am not that interested in science to have studied this stuff.

To me, the bible is a book of stories, some with a grain of historical truth. I don't have a problem with that - a book is a book. I have nothing personal against it, any more than I have something personal against the Koran, or the Upanishads, or Lord of the Rings for that matter. You seem to think it holds some great truth, I don't. I agree with some of it's moral and ethical statements, and disagree with others.

I will accept this blasphemy on the grounds that your first words were "to me". I dare say "To Paul of Tarsus" the Bible would have been something quite different altogether than what it means "to you".

I'm broadly in agreement with the moral stance attributed to Jesus - in so far as it involves the ethic of reciprocity. However, if following the ethic of reciprocity means I'm obeying Jesus, then I'm also obeying a whole bunch of other prophets and philosophers who promote that ethic. IOW, obedience seems irrelevant, I'm trying to follow my morals and ethics regardless of external pressure. If they mesh with what Jesus requires, fine; but I'm following them for rational objective reasons, not out of blind obedience to anyone.

I can't tell you what you need to do in order to "obey Jesus", that is between you and Him. I can only tell you to seek for it in The Bible because that is where Jesus says you will find the answer:

You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

I am aware that much of the bible has some historical truth, but much of it does not.

I'll reverse your advice and say I think it's you that ought to try to open your mind to see the reality of the world for what it is. The problem with prophesies is that they are ideal candidates for confirmation bias - they tend to be fairly general (lacking specificity), and typically, many prophesies are made - the vast majority of which are never mentioned again. In fact, there's a inverse relation between the specificity of the prophesy and the probability of it being dubbed 'fulfilled'. It's also a classic scam technique of clairvoyants and psychics - make a large number of fairly vague predictions, then scan the news looking for events they can be massaged to fit. The misses are forgotten, but even the 'hits', under scrutiny, are rarely more than ambiguous. Once in a blue moon, they should get one 'right' purely by chance, which then becomes 'proof' of predictive powers. An ancient text that reports both the prophesy and its fulfillment, has the additional credibility problem of requiring independent corroboration of both prophesy and its fulfillment.

Just be aware that YHWH is against all demon worship, so you are wrong to say that prophets are equivalent to psychics. Deteronomy 18:18-22 shows how seriously God takes it, that any false prophet in Israel is to be executed.

Of course, either side of the debate can say 'well they would say that, wouldn't they?' at this point. I know some of the historical events in the bible are corroborated by independent sources - that's the least one should expect from an historical text. But that doesn't mean it's all true. For example, historical fiction is usually based on real events - which can be independently corroborated, but by definition, the actual story isn't true.

There are many historians and biblical scholars who argue constantly over the historical veracity of various parts of the bible. Consider, for a moment, who has the largest vested interest in this debate - the researcher or scholar with no related religious belief, or the one who's belief is intimately tied to the veracity of the story? Which one would find it 'inconvenient' if the story was unverifiable or falsified? Of course, there are scholars with an opposing vested religious interest, but my point is that it's not nearly the one-sided argument you suggest.

That is ok, our time here is short and we are all trying to achieve a better world for either ourselves or for others. It does seem unproductive though to see efforts spent proving those things that can be easily decided. Perhaps this can inspire you to think a bit more about the spiritual forces that influence this well ordered collection of atoms we are observing

You should be aware that religious belief is generally described as an example of superstitious or magical thinking by those who study this area of psychology. Just sayin'

Yeah but that is just their best guess at rationalizing a behaviour they haven't experienced.

A product of our experience and our genetics.

I agree.

But why would I want to do that - because you believe it?

I don't know. I only know what motivated me and it wasn't fear of hell or desire for heaven, it was wanting to know God for once and for all. Now that I know Him and the reality of judgment day, of course I want to inspire people to go through the narrow gate! Do you think I'm trying to trick you or something? That's a good point actually. What do you think motivates me to come along here and talk about Jesus with others? Would you mind answering that for me?

Beyond life, I will be dead.

Uhuh, and we are a long time dead. Some of us will be harvested as grain into The LORD's presence forever, and others will be burnt as chaff. Do you know about those prophecies?

That's what the book says... how do we know which books to trust, and which parts of them to trust with our lives?

Actually I was wrong. It's not what the book says. The book says that He was with God in the beginning and He was God and He took on the form of a human and dwelt among us, and He was resurrected and is the first among many to be called the son's of God. You have to choose for yourself who you are going to trust. Are you going to trust one of the gazillion doctors or psychics who have lived and died through the ages, or are you going to trust someone who has inspired people from peasants to kings across the millenia even before and after He lived? There is only ONE Jesus Christ, and there is no other god who can withstand Him. That's why. You scientist's with your telecopes searching for life in planets two million light years away.. is life on earth really that hard to understand?

So there are other gods? - and yours is the top one... I got this image of an MMORPG, like 'World Of Warcraft', where I'm saying 'Dude, it's just a game...' and you're saying 'No way, it's real, and my character is the best!'. Sorry, it was a distraction. The real question is how do you know? (circular arguments excluded).

Because they have revealed themselves to people and the people have believed them.

And how do you know whether the light you believe you have is actually darkness or not, when you can see nothing else?

I don't know, that's the thing, only an observer can see it. I hope from your perspective I appear to be light instead of darkness, even if you can't fully comprehend the light I shine, I hope you will see that I'm not preaching anything that is remotely dark in nature. I certainly wouldn't expect to be as bright as Paul of Tarsus, but what do you observe in my nature DR, do you observe light or darkness?

He seemed to have his heart in the right place, given the times; but that was 2000 years ago. He sounds like a good man, but he's a historical character; my next door neighbor is a lovely bloke - he's actually alive and I've met him - but I don't love him, except in the most general sense of loving the good side of humanity.

Yup. Such is the epiphany of mortality, when we realize all that we amount to will soon become dust, and our lives will be likewise just as significant as dust. Let me share this beautiful quote from Napolean Boneparte:

“I marvel that where the ambitious dreams of myself and of Alexander and of Caesar should have vanished into thin air, a Judean peasant—Jesus—should be able to stretch out his hands across the centuries, and control the destinies of men and nations.”
NAPOLEON BONAPARTE

 

[DomainRider]

Hi DR, please don't treat me like someone who likes to debate because I don't. I simply like to share things that get us thiking in a new way about things that haven't been fully understood.

For my part, I am trying to provide an insight into the world view of a large number of non-Christians; something that might be useful on a forum dealing with struggles by non-Christians.

Ok, I did misread it, I thought you had dismissed personal miracles.

I don't believe that what are reported as miracles are supernatural or paranormal events.

Should you refuse to consider the food for thought I have found, then so be it at your own risk, since you have ample information to know there is more to life than a "well formed collection of atoms", a collection of well-formed atoms that would prefer to have Barrabas a murderer in it's world than Jesus a rightous preacher.

I have been trying to make the point that the 'food for thought' you've been presenting is of little use to someone who does not already believe - it is like me suggesting to you that you will be able to use your chi energy more effectively by strengthening your chi root by a particular stance and mindset - unless you already understand chi, it's not useful information.

I don't follow your allusion of a preference for the murderer Barrabas vs Jesus the righteous preacher - perhaps you could explain?

I understand that you think the New Testament is fairy tales, well it's not. People are killed for defending it's integrity.

Please don't misrepresent me, that is dishonest. I haven't said the New Testament is fairy tales, I believe it is a collection of stories, some with a grain of historical truth. Further, people have been killed defending all kinds of ideas - both moral and immoral from our perspective; that people die for some cause has no bearing on its truth or validity.

You can choose your own teacher, as for me I'm following Jesus and you already know I will believe Him over anyone else.

But I don't know why. Saying 'because I just know' just makes a circular argument - belief is knowledge if the belief is true, and if the believer has a justification (reasonable and necessarily plausible assertions/evidence/guidance) for believing it is true. If the justification is 'because I just know', then it reduces to 'I believe because I know and I know because I believe'.

Straight over my head, I'm sorry I am not that interested in science to have studied this stuff.

Oh the irony - this from the person who told me "I think you need to be careful not to close your mind to the reality of the world for what it is". I'm honestly surprised and puzzled that you have so little interest in the world you believe the Creator went to such trouble to construct for you. I bet he wonders why he bothered with all that detail. Have you considered He may have put all that detail there for a reason? I don't believe it was created for me, and yet I find it a continuing source of knowledge and wonders.

I will accept this blasphemy on the grounds that your first words were "to me".

Whether I prefix it with 'to me' or not, it can only be my opinion, surely?

I dare say "To Paul of Tarsus" the Bible would have been something quite different altogether than what it means "to you".

I have no idea - you'd have to ask him. I suspect it would indeed be something quite different to him, as the bible as we know it wasn't around in his day, since some of his writings are part of it.

'You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.'

Right. It doesn't help that I don't believe in a personal life-after-death, let alone eternal life... it sounds to me like an escapist fantasy, to escape the hard reality of the finality of death. YMMV

Just be aware that YHWH is against all demon worship, so you are wrong to say that prophets are equivalent to psychics.

Psychics (clairvoyants) claim to predict the future. Some are deliberate frauds, some believe they can do what they claim. Prophets claim to predict the future. Some are deliberate frauds (e.g. the late Sri Sathya Sai Baba), some believe they can do what they claim. How does one distinguish between prophets and clairvoyants?

Deteronomy 18:18-22 shows how seriously God takes it, that any false prophet in Israel is to be executed.

Way to show mercy, all-merciful one. Btw, how do they know a prophet is false?

It does seem unproductive though to see efforts spent proving those things that can be easily decided.

You lost me - what easily decidable things?

Perhaps this can inspire you to think a bit more about the spiritual forces that influence this well ordered collection of atoms we are observing

People have been observing this well-ordered collection of atoms and its environment, for many years, using the best tools and techniques available for obtaining objective information (i.e. eliminating personal bias and error), and they have found no good evidence whatever for spiritual forces. There's a Nobel Prize, fame, and a revolution in science awaiting the discovery, so the incentive is there, but I suspect it will remain unclaimed.

Yeah but that is just their best guess at rationalizing a behaviour they haven't experienced.

As the old saw has it, 'If it walks like a duck...'.

Do you think I'm trying to trick you or something?

No, not at all - I can't imagine what you could be trying to trick me into or out of.

What do you think motivates me to come along here and talk about Jesus with others? Would you mind answering that for me?

Wow, that's a difficult one - motivations can be very complex, and not always clear to the individual him/herself... I really don't know, but I imagine you believe that you come here to help people in relation to their problems with God, Jesus, spirituality, and so-on. There may be other motivations (some of which you are less aware of, or unaware of) - perhaps a need to validate or reinforce your own belief, maybe a need to feel altruistic, or as a spiritual exercise, or a penance; perhaps the need to take an explicitly adult or mentoring role, perhaps a need for the ego-boost of getting thanks or having superior knowledge, or winning arguments, or reinforcing your opinions or biases or stereotypes; maybe it's easier online because you find it difficult in person, perhaps it's a matter of anonymity, or boredom, or escape... Like I said, I don't know. I generally just respond what people post, regardless of their motivation, because that's all I have to go on.

Some of us will be harvested as grain into The LORD's presence forever, and others will be burnt as chaff. Do you know about those prophecies?

I've heard that kind of thing before; sounds like standard heaven & hell fare.

You have to choose for yourself who you are going to trust. Are you going to trust one of the gazillion doctors or psychics who have lived and died through the ages, or are you going to trust someone who has inspired people from peasants to kings across the millenia even before and after He lived?

I'll trust someone with objective evidence over someone without, someone who can demonstrate what they say over someone who can't, someone whose claim is consistent with the established body of knowledge over some whose claim is not. It makes no difference to me whether they are labelled doctors, psychics, prophets, messiahs. Argument from authority is not, in itself, persuasive, nor is argumentum ad populum (i.e. the more people believe, the more persuasive).

There is only ONE Jesus Christ, and there is no other god who can withstand Him. That's why.

So you say. I have yet to see evidence for any of it.

You scientist's with your telecopes searching for life in planets two million light years away.. is life on earth really that hard to understand?

This is crude stereotyping - I'm not looking for life on other planets, and only a very few scientists are. The vast majority are looking looking at this planet, many of them looking at life here, particularly human life. Do you really feel qualified to say how hard life on Earth is to understand, when viable, reproducing, living things have been already assembled in the lab from non-living components - and you say you're 'not that interested in science to have studied this stuff' ?

Because they have revealed themselves to people and the people have believed them.

Are you really saying that things are true because people believe them? They may be true for the people that believe them, but an individual truth of that kind is useful only to the individual.

I don't know, that's the thing, only an observer can see it.

So you don't know whether your belief is the 'darkness' or the 'light'? Doesn't that make you uneasy?

I hope from your perspective I appear to be light instead of darkness, even if you can't fully comprehend the light I shine, I hope you will see that I'm not preaching anything that is remotely dark in nature. I certainly wouldn't expect to be as bright as Paul of Tarsus, but what do you observe in my nature DR, do you observe light or darkness?

I can judge only by what you post. To me you come across as sincere, honest, very suspicious & defensive, quick to judge or jump to conclusions, and seemingly unable to take an external viewpoint (i.e. see things from a non-believer's point of view). No offence intended - that's just my interpretation of the posts I've read.

Let me share this beautiful quote from Napolean Boneparte:

“I marvel that where the ambitious dreams of myself and of Alexander and of Caesar should have vanished into thin air, a Judean peasant—Jesus—should be able to stretch out his hands across the centuries, and control the destinies of men and nations.”
NAPOLEON BONAPARTE

Very poetic - though I guess Muslims would have the same sentiments about Muhammad, Buddhists about Siddhartha Gautama, and so-on.

 

[oi_antz]

For my part, I am trying to provide an insight into the world view of a large number of non-Christians; something that might be useful on a forum dealing with struggles by non-Christians.

I don't believe that what are reported as miracles are supernatural or paranormal events.

Many that are reported miracles aren't miracles at all, that's for sure. But it doesn't discredit true miracles.

I have been trying to make the point that the 'food for thought' you've been presenting is of little use to someone who does not already believe - it is like me suggesting to you that you will be able to use your chi energy more effectively by strengthening your chi root by a particular stance and mindset - unless you already understand chi, it's not useful information.

Well at least you know what is required if you do decide you want to be part of Christ's kingdom. I remember that I had insufficiently shared it with you and with JGG and BleedingHeart, so I thought it was a good idea to do so when I came across it. I hope you don't mind my sharing of pertinent scripture even though a more synchronised timing could potentially have given it more impact.

I don't follow your allusion of a preference for the murderer Barrabas vs Jesus the righteous preacher - perhaps you could explain?

I am saying that Jesus really ruffled some feathers with only good intentions, enough in fact that the world released a murderer and condemned Jesus instead. I am showing you that there are spiritual forces that have an interest in keeping this world under the delusion of those who live in spiritual darkness.

Please don't misrepresent me, that is dishonest. I haven't said the New Testament is fairy tales, I believe it is a collection of stories, some with a grain of historical truth. Further, people have been killed defending all kinds of ideas - both moral and immoral from our perspective; that people die for some cause has no bearing on its truth or validity.

I have no interest in splitting hairs.

But I don't know why. Saying 'because I just know' just makes a circular argument - belief is knowledge if the belief is true, and if the believer has a justification (reasonable and necessarily plausible assertions/evidence/guidance) for believing it is true. If the justification is 'because I just know', then it reduces to 'I believe because I know and I know because I believe'.

I don't know how to explain why. When you discover the truth about God then you'll cling to that rock. You can be assured of that, even if you don't trust my word.

Oh the irony - this from the person who told me "I think you need to be careful not to close your mind to the reality of the world for what it is". I'm honestly surprised and puzzled that you have so little interest in the world you believe the Creator went to such trouble to construct for you. I bet he wonders why he bothered with all that detail. Have you considered He may have put all that detail there for a reason? I don't believe it was created for me, and yet I find it a continuing source of knowledge and wonders.

Good for you to have an interest in an area that I don't. I don't believe life on earth is meant to be spent discovering everything about it. Maybe when the war is over, yeah then with all the time in eternity I might one day discover an interest in what you seem to enjoy, but for me I'm content to know that God didn't "bother" with such detail, but He simply commanded it to happen by telling it to happen. I am glad you love His creation though, I certainly do and it is this love that drew me to discover Him. So I hope love will prevail in your own faith too

Whether I prefix it with 'to me' or not, it can only be my opinion, surely?

That is all I was saying, yes.

I have no idea - you'd have to ask him. I suspect it would indeed be something quite different to him, as the bible as we know it wasn't around in his day, since some of his writings are part of it.

Transplant your sense of reality into his world and you may be able to understand that the Bible in his time was still hot on the lips of the witnesses. The Bible as we know it today contains only a glimpse of what transpired while Jesus was on earth, yet it is all we need to know because The Holy Spirit now teaches us all things and reminds us what Jesus said.

Right. It doesn't help that I don't believe in a personal life-after-death, let alone eternal life... it sounds to me like an escapist fantasy, to escape the hard reality of the finality of death. YMMV

Well, I can assure you the hard reality is just as real whether or not you believe you will survive it. Does it make sense though to refuse to ask Jesus what He expects in terms of "obedience"? What I mean to say is, what is the fear that is stopping you from pursuing Jesus? Is there something about being Christian that you don't like the idea of?

Psychics (clairvoyants) claim to predict the future. Some are deliberate frauds, some believe they can do what they claim. Prophets claim to predict the future. Some are deliberate frauds (e.g. the late Sri Sathya Sai Baba), some believe they can do what they claim. How does one distinguish between prophets and clairvoyants?

If they make a prophesy that doesn't come true then they are to be executed.

Way to show mercy, all-merciful one. Btw, how do they know a prophet is false?

I am only sharing my own POV, but if I had people who were claiming to represent me but who were actually representing my enemies, I would want them removed too. They would be better off fleeing to another country.

You lost me - what easily decidable things?

One only needs to decide if they will believe the Bible is true. Their decision thus defines whether they believe God or not. Therefore the argument whether it can be proven will last as long as anyone has an interest in proving it true or false. Therefore, as long as one person believes it and another person doesn't, there will be arguments over whether it can be proven when all that is needed is a decision "will I believe it or not". It is deliberately constructed this way so the haughty smarty-pants types of people cannot decode it's truths. Jesus said "unless you come unto God as a child, you cannot enter heaven".

People have been observing this well-ordered collection of atoms and its environment, for many years, using the best tools and techniques available for obtaining objective information (i.e. eliminating personal bias and error), and they have found no good evidence whatever for spiritual forces. There's a Nobel Prize, fame, and a revolution in science awaiting the discovery, so the incentive is there, but I suspect it will remain unclaimed.

I suspect the same.

As the old saw has it, 'If it walks like a duck...'.

What I don't understand is why a duck might think they know what happens in my mind better than I do.

No, not at all - I can't imagine what you could be trying to trick me into or out of.

Good. Paul says we are to use plain words that are easy to understand.

Wow, that's a difficult one - motivations can be very complex, and not always clear to the individual him/herself... I really don't know, but I imagine you believe that you come here to help people in relation to their problems with God, Jesus, spirituality, and so-on. There may be other motivations (some of which you are less aware of, or unaware of) - perhaps a need to validate or reinforce your own belief, maybe a need to feel altruistic, or as a spiritual exercise, or a penance; perhaps the need to take an explicitly adult or mentoring role, perhaps a need for the ego-boost of getting thanks or having superior knowledge, or winning arguments, or reinforcing your opinions or biases or stereotypes; maybe it's easier online because you find it difficult in person, perhaps it's a matter of anonymity, or boredom, or escape... Like I said, I don't know. I generally just respond what people post, regardless of their motivation, because that's all I have to go on.

Well I'll tell you then. It is because I know the colour of the pasture on both sides of the fence.

I've heard that kind of thing before; sounds like standard heaven & hell fare.

It is the end time judgment. I'll save you some time for reading Revelation 20 and 21, instead I'll pull out the relevant parts here:

The Judgment of the Dead

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

A New Heaven and a New Earth

1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

All this was said by Jesus in a vision after He had been resurrected and given His place on the throne in heaven. I'll put here the way Jesus said it while He was still with His disciples before the crucifixion:

The Sheep and the Goats

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

So those are Jesus' prophesies concerning the final judgment. It would pay even if you are unable to make the leap of faith, to find out what sort of behavior or commitment Jesus expects of you.

I'll trust someone with objective evidence over someone without, someone who can demonstrate what they say over someone who can't, someone whose claim is consistent with the established body of knowledge over some whose claim is not. It makes no difference to me whether they are labelled doctors, psychics, prophets, messiahs. Argument from authority is not, in itself, persuasive, nor is argumentum ad populum (i.e. the more people believe, the more persuasive).

It's a dangerous topic you know, this matter of eternal life and eternal death. I don't think it is wise to trust just anyone. Jesus teaches that we are born spiritually dead. That means that we have a physical body but the eternal soul is not alive. Jesus teaches that we must be born again. When you are born again you will see life how I see it, that the body is only a vessel for us to manipulate the well-formed collection of atoms we are observing. Until that happens, who do you think controls the thoughts you have? Can you guarantee that demons and angels don't influence your thoughts?

So you say. I have yet to see evidence for any of it.

It's right in front of you. Why do you not read the Bible and discover what Jesus wants you to do? Then when you comply with Jesus' commands you will receive eternal life and you will recognize that your soul is in heaven while your body is on earth. This is a real understanding, this is how the spirit world influences the material world. Do you not wonder why the serpent deceived the human and not any other creature? Because the human is made in the image of God. The human loves to walk around being God unto itself, and Satan loves to know how to easily manipulate us. This is why Jesus says only those who obey Him will enter heaven, not just those who call upon His name and do good things in His name, but only those who do His Father's will and refrain from being God unto themselves. In other words, it is a life long commitment to always obeying God. This doesn't mean you have to stop observing this fascinating creation of His and devote your life to missionary work, all it means is you listen to what He tells you and obey Him. I expect He has great plans for how he can make good use of your knowledge and interests if you will dedicate your time to honoring Him, but I fear for you if you decline the opportunity all your life and then upon death come to realise how much you could have achieved for Him. Look into the bags of gold parable, I can see in your nature that He has entrusted you with a lot.

This is crude stereotyping - I'm not looking for life on other planets, and only a very few scientists are. The vast majority are looking looking at this planet, many of them looking at life here, particularly human life. Do you really feel qualified to say how hard life on Earth is to understand, when viable, reproducing, living things have been already assembled in the lab from non-living components - and you say you're 'not that interested in science to have studied this stuff' ?

Life is fleeting away before our eyes while oil, fish and milk companies are raping the globe, at this rate it will be a ball of dust in just a few generations. We need to concentrate on things that matter, environmental responsibility to our neighbors and descendents. Of course I am supportive of scientific endevours, I just see so much of our efforts are wasted on unproductive curiosities. My point was not that science is bad, but that we are looking for civilisation in other places where we have civilisation right amongst us that needs taming. As a globe we are doing very poorly that which God instructed us to do. (Gensis 1:28).

Are you really saying that things are true because people believe them? They may be true for the people that believe them, but an individual truth of that kind is useful only to the individual.

Of course not. Everyone knows their gods are real otherwise they wouldn't believe in them.

So you don't know whether your belief is the 'darkness' or the 'light'? Doesn't that make you uneasy?

It does a bit, but Jesus reassures me when I need it and sometimes He causes me to repent when I need it.

I can judge only by what you post. To me you come across as sincere, honest, very suspicious & defensive, quick to judge or jump to conclusions, and seemingly unable to take an external viewpoint (i.e. see things from a non-believer's point of view). No offence intended - that's just my interpretation of the posts I've read.

Thank you! No offense taken, I do appreciate your honest observation.

Very poetic - though I guess Muslims would have the same sentiments about Muhammad, Buddhists about Siddhartha Gautama, and so-on.

Yes, but do their prophets now sit at God's right hand while all their enemies become a foot stool?

 

[begt]

"Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"

-From the first post..

What is this nonsense?!?!!?? Of course evolution is hard to observe directly because it takes many generations. But it's easy to breed E. Coli bacteria and observe what happens during/after a few thousand generations. It would take some time to watch it unfold of course...

Besides molecular evidence and morphological evidence all point towards evolution. We can infer that evolution has taken place. Just like we can infer that a crime has taken place when someone has recieved a lethal bullet wound and suicide can be excluded. We humans have many vestigial features and homologies that we share with other mammals.

Of course evolution is an on-going endavour. The environment is constantly changing and every generation mutations are added. So over time the composition of the population in question will change, inevitably. Hence evolution will take place inevitably. This is just as certain as a pen will drop to the floor if you drop it.

 

[DomainRider]

What is this nonsense?!?!!?? Of course evolution is hard to observe directly because it takes many generations. But it's easy to breed E. Coli bacteria and observe what happens during/after a few thousand generations. It would take some time to watch it unfold of course...

Yes, in fact not only evolution, but speciation has now been observed in the wild in plants, insects, mammals, fish, bacteria, etc. See Speciation 1, Speciation 2, and references from these very forums: Speciation 3.

 

[razeontherock]

Speciation does not contradict the Bible in the least. Nor does this thread drift advance the OP ...

 

[begt]

Speciation does not contradict the Bible in the least. Nor does this thread drift advance the OP ...

All the species were supposed to be on Noah's ark, right? I haven't read the Bible so can someone correct me if I'm wrong?

If I'm right then the bible is self-contradictory. Speciation events have been observed...

 

[DomainRider]

Well at least you know what is required if you do decide you want to be part of Christ's kingdom. I remember that I had insufficiently shared it with you and with JGG and BleedingHeart, so I thought it was a good idea to do so when I came across it.

Respect for making the effort.

I am showing you that there are spiritual forces that have an interest in keeping this world under the delusion of those who live in spiritual darkness.

You lost me again - your previous comment was about the preferences of a well-ordered collection of atoms, not spiritual forces...

I have no interest in splitting hairs.

OK; if you feel distinguishing between historical fiction and fairy tales is splitting hairs... it seems more than that to me.

I don't believe life on earth is meant to be spent discovering everything about it. Maybe when the war is over, yeah then with all the time in eternity I might one day discover an interest in what you seem to enjoy, but for me I'm content to know that God didn't "bother" with such detail, but He simply commanded it to happen by telling it to happen.

But don't you wonder why? Why put in all that detail in at all? why the millions of years of fossils of extinct creatures underground, why all the other planets, stars, and galaxies? why, if they're not important?

Does it make sense though to refuse to ask Jesus what He expects in terms of "obedience"? What I mean to say is, what is the fear that is stopping you from pursuing Jesus? Is there something about being Christian that you don't like the idea of?

I don't see myself 'refusing' to ask Jesus about obedience, any more than I'm 'refusing' to ask any other prophet or scripture. I'm prepared to listen to what they have to say on moral and social topics, but I try to do what I believe to be right, and that is independent of what Jesus or any other prophet, messiah, or scripture says. I don't 'pursue' Jesus or any other prophet, not because I am afraid - what is there to be afraid of? - but because I don't believe in the supernatural, and I have no interest in following anyone. I guess belief in and worship of the supernatural is what I don't like the idea of - however, I do neither, so no problem.

How does one distinguish between prophets and clairvoyants?

If they make a prophesy that doesn't come true then they are to be executed.

Leaving aside how one can be certain a prophesy has come true (Nostradamus springs to mind), if the prophesy is far enough in the future, the prophet will already be dead. Nevertheless, many Christians, from Montanus to 'Benny' Hinn, have made prophesies that failed, yet they were not executed. Any prophesy that someone can interpret as having come true, will likely trigger endless argument among the faithful as to whether it has or not.

So it seems to me your answer doesn't really help distinguish true prophets from clairvoyants at all.

I am only sharing my own POV, but if I had people who were claiming to represent me but who were actually representing my enemies, I would want them removed too. They would be better off fleeing to another country.

And if they sincerely believed they were speaking on your behalf? After all, some false prophets may be fraudulent, but others are simply mistaken or deluded. How could you tell the difference?

One only needs to decide if they will believe the Bible is true. Their decision thus defines whether they believe God or not.

So if they don't believe the bible is true, they don't believe in God? Suppose they, like many Christians, believe the bible is only partly true? Does it matter which parts?

What I don't understand is why a duck might think they know what happens in my mind better than I do.

are you really not familiar with the 'Duck Test' ?

It is because I know the colour of the pasture on both sides of the fence.

OK - a very gnomic motivation indeed. Hardly Pauline clarity... but I get the impression you see my side of the fence in very different colours to me.

It is the end time judgment. I'll save you some time for reading Revelation 20 and 21, instead I'll pull out the relevant parts here:

The Judgment of the Dead...

So those are Jesus' prophesies concerning the final judgment. It would pay even if you are unable to make the leap of faith, to find out what sort of behavior or commitment Jesus expects of you.

So do you personally give food and drink to the destitute, invite strangers into your home, clothe them, look after sick people, and visit prisoners in prison?

I don't think it is wise to trust just anyone.

My point exactly.

who do you think controls the thoughts you have?

Directly? no-one. However, everyone we meet (and many we don't) will affect our thoughts in some way.

Can you guarantee that demons and angels don't influence your thoughts?

Yes, beyond all reasonable doubt - although I'll reconsider if you can point me to some plausible objective evidence that demons and angels exist and can influence thoughts.

It's right in front of you. Why do you not read the Bible and discover what Jesus wants you to do? Then when you comply with Jesus' commands you will receive eternal life and you will recognize that your soul is in heaven while your body is on earth.

The bible is a book. Books are anecdotal evidence - in the bible's case, evidence of some people's particular beliefs. There are many books claiming revelatory mystical or spiritual truth - for example, I suspect you haven't read the Vedic scriptures, and I certainly don't imagine you obey the commands therein. I have no more reason or inclination to obey biblical commands than you do the Vedic scriptures. As you yourself said 'I don't think it is wise to trust just anyone'. What makes the bible more trustworthy than the Vedic scriptures? ('because it is true' would be begging the question).

This is a real understanding, this is how the spirit world influences the material world.

If you really understand, perhaps you could explain how the spirit world influences the material world? The material world is physical, and the basic mechanisms of the physical are well understood down to the subatomic level - so how does the spirit world affect the physical? what is the mechanism?

Do you not wonder why the serpent deceived the human and not any other creature?

Not really, AIUI, it is an allegorical story about the fall of man, so naturally it would be about man.

I expect He has great plans for how he can make good use of your knowledge and interests if you will dedicate your time to honoring Him

If I had dedicated my time to honoring anyone, I wouldn't have gained the knowledge I have - objective knowledge that supports my stance of non-belief.

I fear for you if you decline the opportunity all your life and then upon death come to realise how much you could have achieved for Him.

Don't fear for me, there's nothing to be gained by it.

We need to concentrate on things that matter, environmental responsibility to our neighbors and descendents. Of course I am supportive of scientific endevours, I just see so much of our efforts are wasted on unproductive curiosities.

As I said, only a tiny proportion is spent on the search for extraterrestrial life, and 99% of that is funded by interested individuals (SETI just ran out of funds). The vast majority are trying to solve practical problems here on Earth - as you'd know if you took a little more interest.

As a globe we are doing very poorly that which God instructed us to do. (Gensis 1:28).

And what are you doing for environmental responsibility, disinterested in science as you say you are?

Of course not. Everyone knows their gods are real otherwise they wouldn't believe in them.

Exactly - the point is that there's a difference between individually believing something is real, and it actually being real.

It does a bit, but Jesus reassures me when I need it and sometimes He causes me to repent when I need it.

Let's hope it's really him

Yes, but do their prophets now sit at God's right hand while all their enemies become a foot stool?

They believe so, certainly, as firmly as you do your prophet.

To me, individual religious belief appears so arbitrary - for the majority, more a matter of location - an accident of birth, than anything else. If you had been born elsewhere in the world brought up in a different religious tradition, I expect you'd have quite different beliefs to those you hold now.

 

[DomainRider]

All the species were supposed to be on Noah's ark, right? I haven't read the Bible so can someone correct me if I'm wrong?

I believe the literalist argument is that 'kind', the word used for the different animals, is a sort of superset of species.

If I'm right then the bible is self-contradictory. Speciation events have been observed...

I think you'll find arguing the ark story from a practical and scientific point of view is more productive.

However, as razeontherock says, this is a derail of the thread.

 

[oi_antz]

Hi DR,

This last comment you made, I will put it at the top. I'm just going now for a last-ditch attempt to swing us back into constructive communication. Here goes.

To me, individual religious belief appears so arbitrary - for the majority, more a matter of location - an accident of birth, than anything else. If you had been born elsewhere in the world brought up in a different religious tradition, I expect you'd have quite different beliefs to those you hold now.

This is why Jesus doesn't say that we are saved by religion, but rather by whose names are written in the book of life. It would seem likely that those of us who are exposed to Christianity have more burden of responsibility than a Papua New Guinea tribe that has never been told about the crucifixion of Jesus (though that hypothetical is quite unrealistic). I'm sure you know what I mean. Judgment is relative to responsibility. The best verse I can think off the top of my head is this:

James 3
1 Dear brothers and sisters, not many of you should become teachers in the church, for we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2 Indeed, we all make many mistakes. For if we could control our tongues, we would be perfect and could also control ourselves in every other way. 3 We can make a large horse go wherever we want by means of a small bit in its mouth.

You lost me again - your previous comment was about the preferences of a well-ordered collection of atoms, not spiritual forces...

The most interesting thing about the story of Adam and Eve is that the serpent is still here with us. Remember what the serpent did? He tricked the human into committing a sinful act by saying "you can have xxx if you just disobey your conscience". In terms of the OP, this is the sort of idea that needs consideration.

Edit: instead of saying "you can have xxx if you just disobey your conscience" it is better to say "you can have xxx if you just disobey what God told you".

But don't you wonder why? Why put in all that detail in at all? why the millions of years of fossils of extinct creatures underground, why all the other planets, stars, and galaxies? why, if they're not important?

No I don't wonder why, we have obviously travelled different paths and gained different interests. Life is not long enough to achieve everything or experience all that we want to do. But like I say, if we manage to survive this world and come out the other end then perhaps one day yes I will discover the fascinations you have discovered. I've been an orchardist, musician, sound engineer and a programmer, I would expect that with enough time in your life you will have experienced and come to love aspects of those vocations too.

I don't see myself 'refusing' to ask Jesus about obedience, any more than I'm 'refusing' to ask any other prophet or scripture. I'm prepared to listen to what they have to say on moral and social topics, but I try to do what I believe to be right, and that is independent of what Jesus or any other prophet, messiah, or scripture says. I don't 'pursue' Jesus or any other prophet, not because I am afraid - what is there to be afraid of? - but because I don't believe in the supernatural, and I have no interest in following anyone. I guess belief in and worship of the supernatural is what I don't like the idea of - however, I do neither, so no problem.

Well all I can say is that you want to be careful not to tread on His toes. The best advice I feel to give you is to know what Jesus expects of you. That means to live by the ten commandments, read through the gospels and new testament and see if you don't learn something about Christianity that you didn't know. Afterall, I'm not here to ram Christianity down your throat it is just that I happen to know the true meaning and purpose of life and it is Jesus who aquits or condemns us.

Leaving aside how one can be certain a prophesy has come true (Nostradamus springs to mind), if the prophesy is far enough in the future, the prophet will already be dead. Nevertheless, many Christians, from Montanus to 'Benny' Hinn, have made prophesies that failed, yet they were not executed. Any prophesy that someone can interpret as having come true, will likely trigger endless argument among the faithful as to whether it has or not.

So it seems to me your answer doesn't really help distinguish true prophets from clairvoyants at all.

We aren't talking about Nostradamus or Benny Hill. We are talking about Ezekiel, Daniel and Elija. People who come with a message from God.

And if they sincerely believed they were speaking on your behalf? After all, some false prophets may be fraudulent, but others are simply mistaken or deluded. How could you tell the difference?

I would make sure they knew.

So if they don't believe the bible is true, they don't believe in God? Suppose they, like many Christians, believe the bible is only partly true? Does it matter which parts?

I don't know about that, you know I can't speak on behalf of others about their personal relationship to God. As for those who call themselves Christian, they must believe all of it. Any Christian who doesn't believe the Bible is true 100% through and through is "unbelieving". According to Revelation 21:8 their destiny is the lake of fire. As for those of other religions, I cannot give an opinion since I don't know the nature of their relationship to God.

are you really not familiar with the 'Duck Test' ?

ROFL! I really thought you were complimenting me! Yes, I am serious, I thought it was a joke about those quacks you mentioned. How can an unbeliving observer claim to know what happens in the mind of a believer? That was hilarious, thanks!

OK - a very gnomic motivation indeed. Hardly Pauline clarity... but I get the impression you see my side of the fence in very different colours to me.

No I don't know the world you live in. What I know is an A/B comaprison of life without knowing God and life with knowing God as a personal friend, I would never walk away from Him again. This is why I say the pasture is better on my side of the fence because I wouldn't trade it for a world!

So do you personally give food and drink to the destitute, invite strangers into your home, clothe them, look after sick people, and visit prisoners in prison?

I can say yes to giving food and drink to the destitute, yes I have invited strangers into my home, yes clothed them, yes looked after people when they are sick, never visited anyone I knew in prison but I did write to a friend who had been incarcerated once and offered to send him cigarettes if he needed. All in all, I think the nature that Jesus is describing defines those who are sheep and goats quite well, don't you?

If you really understand, perhaps you could explain how the spirit world influences the material world? The material world is physical, and the basic mechanisms of the physical are well understood down to the subatomic level - so how does the spirit world affect the physical? what is the mechanism?

I'm not going to waste time trying to describe it. You can ask God for it and receive the enlightenment in one single thought - that is, if you really want to.

Don't fear for me, there's nothing to be gained by it.

But I do. Time never stops!

As I said, only a tiny proportion is spent on the search for extraterrestrial life, and 99% of that is funded by interested individuals (SETI just ran out of funds). The vast majority are trying to solve practical problems here on Earth - as you'd know if you took a little more interest.

And what are you doing for environmental responsibility, disinterested in science as you say you are?

I keep my ears peeled and sow seeds here and there. I'm a particular fan of organic plastic, I'd like to see the world shift to using 90% or more of biodegradable plastic.

Exactly - the point is that there's a difference between individually believing something is real, and it actually being real.

But religions, cults and covens collectively believe their deities are real. There is one deity and it is consistent among it's worshipers.

Let's hope it's really him

True, otherwise someone will really get their but kicked.

They believe so, certainly, as firmly as you do your prophet.

That isn't a problem to me

Well, I don't know how you might like to continue our conversation, I think if we can concentrate on the well-formed collection of atoms and the three parties who are interested in ruling these atoms, we might be able to find the enemy like the thread title states. What would make one collection of well-formed atoms want to destroy another collection of well formed atoms? What would make one collection of well formed atoms want to insult another collection of well formed atoms? Christian spirituality holds the key as far as I can see. Lucifer wants to gain all worship, Jesus deserves all worship, and the human just wants more of what it already has. There is motive for Lucifer to discourage Christian discipleship, the human can be manipulated by pride to ridicule those who aren't part of their little circle. So the Christian gets a thrill by mocking an atheist and Lucifer successfully propagates more doubt against Jesus's true nature. I think we might be on to something here re: the OP and why a Christian might feel compelled to mock an atheist. What do you think about that idea? Is it scientific?

 

[razeontherock]

All the species were supposed to be on Noah's ark, right? I haven't read the Bible so can someone correct me if I'm wrong?

If I'm right then the bible is self-contradictory. Speciation events have been observed...

You're not right, which I already said. Let's lift this broken needle off the broken record and get back to the OP

 

[razeontherock]

I think you'll find arguing the ark story from a practical and scientific point of view is more productive.

As an aside, you should look into how the practical side is covered; completely doable. Haven't seen the OP in a while, is he done here?

 

[DomainRider]

As an aside, you should look into how the practical side is covered; completely doable. Haven't seen the OP in a while, is he done here?

I have looked into the practical side - as have far more competent people than me; geologists, archaeologists, physicists, meteorologists, biologists, zoologists, etc. The conclusions are that miraculous intervention would be necessary at pretty much every stage. No evidence has been found for a global flood, and plenty of solid evidence there wasn't one.

 

[DomainRider]

Remember what the serpent did? He tricked the human into committing a sinful act by saying "you can have xxx if you just disobey your conscience".

I thought it was only after the fall, when they had knowledge of good and evil that they gained a conscience (and need of one). But there are probably a number of interpretations...

I've been an orchardist, musician, sound engineer and a programmer...

35 years of my career was as a programmer (C++/Java). Prior to that, a medical researcher.

We aren't talking about Nostradamus or Benny Hill.

Benny Hinn - Toufik Benedictus "Benny" Hinn, the televangelist.

We are talking about Ezekiel, Daniel and Elija. People who come with a message from God.

These other Christian prophets, whose prophesies failed, also claimed they had a message from God.

As for those who call themselves Christian, they must believe all of it. Any Christian who doesn't believe the Bible is true 100% through and through is "unbelieving".

I suspect that makes the number of 'unbelieving' Christians vastly greater than the number of believers... interesting.

ROFL! I really thought you were complimenting me! Yes, I am serious, I thought it was a joke about those quacks you mentioned. How can an unbeliving observer claim to know what happens in the mind of a believer? That was hilarious, thanks!

It's simply a question of categorisation; religious behaviours, claims, and texts are cannonical examples of what is called magical thinking. Obviously you can't ever know what someone subjectively experiences or thinks, you can only judge by their behaviour - what they say & what they do. Hence the saying: if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck...

All in all, I think the nature that Jesus is describing defines those who are sheep and goats quite well, don't you?

Not quite sure what you mean - sheep generally describes people who follow the pack thoughtlessly, but goats? the independent sort? the stubborn sort?

I'm not going to waste time trying to describe it

So, just another unsubstantiated claim. Considering that a plausible explanation would give me serious cause to reconsider my position, and the time already spent on this discussion, it's not the most convincing excuse.

Time never stops!

Well, no - neither does movement

But religions, cults and covens collectively believe their deities are real. There is one deity and it is consistent among it's worshipers.

Does their belief make it objectively real?

Well, I don't know how you might like to continue our conversation, I think if we can concentrate on the well-formed collection of atoms and the three parties who are interested in ruling these atoms, we might be able to find the enemy like the thread title states.

Some people want to rule other people. Which three parties are you referring to?

What would make one collection of well-formed atoms want to destroy another collection of well formed atoms? What would make one collection of well formed atoms want to insult another collection of well formed atoms?

Briefly, it's human nature. We're influenced by group dynamics on many levels, family, peers, local groups, county, country, ethnic origin, religion, etc. Some of us try to take a more rational or a less confrontational approach, and some are more successful in that than others. It's a deep survival-based heritage, and hard to shake off.

Christian spirituality holds the key as far as I can see. Lucifer wants to gain all worship, Jesus deserves all worship, and the human just wants more of what it already has. There is motive for Lucifer to discourage Christian discipleship, the human can be manipulated by pride to ridicule those who aren't part of their little circle. So the Christian gets a thrill by mocking an atheist and Lucifer successfully propagates more doubt against Jesus's true nature.

If that was all allegory, projection, or metaphor, I might well agree.

I think we might be on to something here re: the OP and why a Christian might feel compelled to mock an atheist. What do you think about that idea? Is it scientific?

There are no doubt good scientific reasons why some Christians feel the way they do (e.g. the psychology of group dynamics), and I can see some mileage in interpreting Lucifer and Jesus in terms of competing drives or psychologies, but in literal terms, no, it's not scientific. To be both literal and scientific, it would need good objective evidence of the existence and influence of Lucifer and Jesus - and, preferably, of their requirements or desires or motivations. I don't think you need any religious overlay to explain why one group of people are inclined to mock another. You can see it in many non-religious situations, involving disability, skin colour, linguistic competence, country of origin, educational level, physical coordination, career choice, sexual orientation, etc., etc. Perhaps the question is whether tolerance and acceptance is a Christian virtue - not a case of turning the other cheek, but a case of not even showing respect (let alone love) for one's neighbor.

I can't really see where our conversation can usefully go from here. We seem to be going in ever-decreasing circles on the central points. The only answers you can give on reasons for belief are circular; you claim an understanding that would be extremely interesting to me but won't 'waste time' explaining it, and I've heard no reasonable explanation of why the beliefs you espouse are preferable to or distinguishable from (in terms of validity) any other religious beliefs, or even non-religious paranormal claims. What I've gleaned so far is that the bible appears to be important just because it is, and similarly for Christianity. It seems to me, predictably enough, that it all rests on a faith born of purely subjective personal experience, and I know how misleading that can be.

Unless you can suggest something else, or have something more to bring to the discussion, I suggest we call it a day. It's been educational for me, and I hope I've been able to give you an idea of how some atheists see the world and religion.

 

[oi_antz]

I suspect that makes the number of 'unbelieving' Christians vastly greater than the number of believers... interesting.

That could be true.

Not quite sure what you mean - sheep generally describes people who follow the pack thoughtlessly, but goats? the independent sort? the stubborn sort?

That is what Jesus wants, when He leads us to greener pasture I'm sure He could do without having goats to contend with. By the way, what makes you think sheep don't think?

So, just another unsubstantiated claim. Considering that a plausible explanation would give me serious cause to reconsider my position, and the time already spent on this discussion, it's not the most convincing excuse.

I did explain it, I just said I'm not going to waste time describing it. Here it is again:

"I'm not going to waste time trying to describe it. You can ask God for it and receive the enlightenment in one single thought - that is, if you really want to."

Well, no - neither does movement

Does their belief make it objectively real?

No it is objectively real before they believed it.

Some people want to rule other people. Which three parties are you referring to?

God, Man and Satan.

Unless you can suggest something else, or have something more to bring to the discussion, I suggest we call it a day. It's been educational for me, and I hope I've been able to give you an idea of how some atheists see the world and religion.

Ok then, still waiting to hear from JGG and BleedingHeart about their response to post 120 and I'd like to hear you explain why you made the comment that sheep don't think.

 

[razeontherock]

I have looked into the practical side - as have far more competent people than me; geologists, archaeologists, physicists, meteorologists, biologists, zoologists, etc. The conclusions are that miraculous intervention would be necessary at pretty much every stage.

Based on the assumptions of people who would like to prove it false, and don't recognize what was actually said about it. So, their conclusions are meaningless.