File Sharing or Stealing

[Mex5150]

Do you really need to ask that question?

If you had not made a statement equating the two, no I would not have felt the need to ask the question, but as you did, I did.

Is he a little kid or something that needs you to speak for him?

In an adult grown up conversation/debate it is usually considered very poor form to rely on ad hominem attacks, I was not defending or speaking for anybody, I was merely asking if you really thought that kind of cowardly attack was needed.

I felt it was necessary cause he sure seem to be fine with freeloading. I actually just now read another post where he said he's something of a vagrant so it turns out I wasn't that far off the mark.

OK, so you clearly are fine with that type of low blow, how very Christian of you ;^/

Now if his friends let him sleep there, no grudges, then that's one thing. Not the same as sneaking into somebody's house to sleep there or sneaking into a theater.

Stop trying to move the goalposts, you equated one with the other, I was asking if that is really what you thought (or if it was just a knee-jerk reaction).

Did you really join here in 2012 and not write any posts till you decided to speak up on this thread? Nothing wrong w that but it's kinda odd.

I signed up meaning to get involved, but life got in the way and I forgot about the account, now I'm back 99% of the threads I would post on are already dozens of pages long by the time I reach them, and most/all of what I would have said has already been posted, so if I feel I don't have anything to add, I don't.

 

[Butterfly99]

If you had not made a statement equating the two, no I would not have felt the need to ask the question, but as you did, I did.
In an adult grown up conversation/debate it is usually considered very poor form to rely on ad hominem attacks, I was not defending or speaking for anybody, I was merely asking if you really thought that kind of cowardly attack was needed.
OK, so you clearly are fine with that type of low blow, how very Christian of you ;^/
Stop trying to move the goalposts, you equated one with the other, I was asking if that is really what you thought (or if it was just a knee-jerk reaction).
I signed up meaning to get involved, but life got in the way and I forgot about the account, now I'm back 99% of the threads I would post on are already dozens of pages long by the time I reach them, and most/all of what I would have said has already been posted, so if I feel I don't have anything to add, I don't.

Mister, you're making an awful big ole fuss when the person I wrote the comment to didn't seem all that fussed by that part. Thought it was entirely relevant to the conversation we were having. Now as far as it being a low blow Idk if you're being for real about that cause this user is pretty known for being rough & tumble round here. Doubt what I said made him flinch one itty bit, especially considering the blows he throws out regularly. Maybe since you haven't been round here much you're not aware of that, so that's OK.

Not moving the goalposts one bit, lol. Nope, seeing a common connection (freeloading) & equating are not the same thing.

Well I guess welcome back? Were you an atheist when you joined here yrs ago?

 

[Mex5150]

Mister, you're making an awful big ole fuss

Really? I wrote one line asking if an insult was nessacery, you are the one making a big deal of it.

when the person I wrote the comment to didn't seem all that fussed by that part. Thought it was entirely relevant to the conversation we were having. Now as far as it being a low blow Idk if you're being for real about that cause this user is pretty known for being rough & tumble round here. Doubt what I said made him flinch one itty bit, especially considering the blows he throws out regularly. Maybe since you haven't been round here much you're not aware of that, so that's OK.

I'm not concerned about the target of your attack, I just think there is no need to jump to ad hominems just for the sake of it.

Not moving the goalposts one bit, lol. Nope, seeing a common connection (freeloading) & equating are not the same thing.

You said somebody sneaking in to watch a movie was stealing, you then equated it to sleeping in somebodies house without permission, trying to claim something different is trying to move the goalposts.

Well I guess welcome back?

Thank you ;^>

Were you an atheist when you joined here yrs ago?

I was, however I have not always been one.

 

[DogmaHunter]

This is only true if shop C would have paid the full price if they couldn't get it free (something you can't guarantee), so you may have lost $1000, but equally so, you may have lost $0!

No.
Shop C is using a software product. They made that decision. They agreed to the EULA.

When someone uses my software, they owe me money.
If those who owe me money do not give me money, then I'm losing income.

It's not hard.

Let's take your over simplified scenario further, lets say shop C closes for what ever reason and the employees move on and get jobs at shops D, E, F, and G. None of these shops has ever heard of your software, but due to the rave reviews of the software from the new staff, they all buy full versions, that alleged cost of possibly maybe $1000 loss has suddenly turned into an undeniable $4000 profit.

Or perhaps they all simply use the pirated version that the employess brought with them. And then you'll be back to "but they wouldn't buy it anyway".

So now, I've lost not 1000, not 4000, but 5000 bucks.
So when exactly am I allowed to complain about illegal use of my software?

That's a clear category error, and is stealing NOT copyright infringement, them eating physical food deprives somebody else from doing so, I like most of your posts and honestly thought you were better than trying to pull a bait and switch like this ;^/

NOTE: I am not saying everybody should go out and pirate everything they can, I'm simply pointing out it's far from as black and white as some people would like everyone to believe.

Software is a product. Just because it lives in cyberspace instead of as a physical object doesn't change anything at all as far as I am concerned.

There is no possible argument to be made to state that I should allow illegal use of my software. None at all.

I have every right to go after those who do. I don't say this easily, but I don't think an argument can be made to make me think otherwise.



Note that I don't actually have problems with piracy. It's kind of impossible with our products since we have full control over which clients can connect to our own hosted databases.

I think it's quite amazing to see how 20 years of internet has shaped society in such a way that people feel it is okay to illegally use things without paying for it, all because they can do it hiding behind a screen in their homes, simply clicking a download link.

That's what is really going on here, imo...
People don't "feel" like they are doing anything wrong, because they are simply sitting quitely at home, not hurting or communicating with anybody, clicking links on websites. How can clicking stuff be a crime, right?


You know, next time you install a pirated version of something, during the installation you'll probably encounter this thing called the "EULA". You should read it next time before you click "agreed".

 

[DogmaHunter]

And based on that tact, many musicians have started giving free downloads of some of their music to whet the appetite for more.

My record company (CD Baby) recently put all of my tracks up on YouTube. the audio quality is not that great, but it may inspire a few do buy a download.

The equivalent of which is a software demo.

And unlike musicians, us software developers can't tour the world doing gigs.
Landing sales is the only way we make money.

(talking professional software here, not nonsense apps that are "free" but which is actually paid for with user data to bombard you with advertisements)

 

[DogmaHunter]

Sharing files is no different than sneaking into a movie theater. No product is being lost, it's just being enjoyed by those who aren't ever going to pay for it anyway.
It shows wonderful character, let me tell you, to go after these people when you aren't losing a single dime.

Take your own example of the movie theater.
Suppose it shows for a full week, 3x a day.
EVERY time the seats are filled for 98%.

But after that week, it turns out only 10 people actually bought a ticket.
The rest came to watch it, but "they weren't ever going to pay for it anyway".

You can't fit 100 million people in a movie theater.
But on the internet, you can reach 1.5 billion people in less then 15 seconds.

In a movie theater, to sneak in, you need to actually sneak in.
On the internet, you simply click a link.

Scale. It matters.

You know what I think shows wonderful character?
Defending the practice of using products without paying for it.

You just want to punish them for what you perceive as 'cheating'.

So when someone sneaks into a movie theater, it's not "cheating"?

The whole 'it's not a victimless crime' thing is untrue. It IS a victimless crime. There ain't no developers hurting from piracy....One's eyes upon a screen does not affect another's income, and big Media just has people on a guilt trip.

When people use my product, I expect them to pay for it. The horror, right?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Define 'stealing' please.

You are turning it into a semantic nonsense argument.

Call it whatever you wish.

You are getting an experience that you refuse to pay for. That's the bottom line.
You should pay for it, and you know you should pay for it, but you refuse to pay for it.
And you're trying to justify it by using the word "stealing" to mean "taking physical objects that are owned by another person", completely ignoring the abstract nature of the products we are talking about here (music, movies, software,..).

They are abstract products, but products nonetheless. Products that aren't free.

 

[DogmaHunter]

At ten dollars a ticket, and the crazy amount of money they make off of people, the hypocrisy is almost cringing talking about 'morality'. If a person doesn't want to acknowledge error on one side, then don't attack the other.

Wow....

So now it's okay to sneak into theaters "because they charge too much anyway"?
This is getting more nonsensical by the minute.

If you think it's too expensive, perhaps you simply shouldn't go there?

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

I'm going to take this magical wand and replicate your car, and then I'm going to drive away in that car.
What did I steal?

My advice is, instead of going after such people, how about securing a more economical basis? Anyone who gets less than their fair amount of money for their work isn't doing something right.
A person getting more than their fair share is just being greedy, going after the little people.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

Wow....

So now it's okay to sneak into theaters "because they charge too much anyway"?
This is getting more nonsensical by the minute.

If you think it's too expensive, perhaps you simply shouldn't go there?

I think that the only people with your kind of pompous attitude are those who have never had to choose between putting gas in their car and eating lunch.

 

[DogmaHunter]

I'm going to take this magical wand and replicate your car, and then I'm going to drive away in that car.
What did I steal?

Please use real examples, instead of examples from lala-land.

My advice is, instead of going after such people, how about securing a more economical basis?

We are a software company.
We build and sell software.
When people use our software products, we expect them to pay for it.
How unethical of us, right?

Anyone who gets less than their fair amount of money for their work isn't doing something right.

You are not the judge of how much I get to be paid for the work that I do.
It also doesn't become less immoral to illegally use my products without paying for it, if those products have already made me rich. It doesn't matter at all how succesfull my business is.

These products are not free. Therefor, if you use them without paying, you are in the wrong. And I get to complain about it and take whatever legal action I deem necessary to put an end to said practice.

A person getting more than their fair share is just being greedy, going after the little people.

Are you a communist? You sound like one.

I don't even know how to respond to this.

If I'm successfull, I'll earn a lot of money. Can I?
I thought this was a free society.

 

[Skavau]

Is it acceptable to use stereo mix to record songs onto your computer that the artist wants you to pay for on youtube/bandcamp/soundcloud/whatever?

Is it acceptable to keep a tab up of a youtube song that you can listen to at will? You effectively 'own' it at that point.

Copyright is at its weakest when it comes to music because of the many different ways in which people can now consume music.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

Please use real examples, instead of examples from lala-land.



We are a software company.
We build and sell software.
When people use our software products, we expect them to pay for it.
How unethical of us, right?




You are not the judge of how much I get to be paid for the work that I do.
It also doesn't become less immoral to illegally use my products without paying for it, if those products have already made me rich. It doesn't matter at all how succesfull my business is.

These products are not free. Therefor, if you use them without paying, you are in the wrong. And I get to complain about it and take whatever legal action I deem necessary to put an end to said practice.



Are you a communist? You sound like one.

I don't even know how to respond to this.

If I'm successfull, I'll earn a lot of money. Can I?
I thought this was a free society.

Cool story bro.
If a person isn't selling it, they aren't causing you any loss.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Cool story bro.
If a person isn't selling it, they aren't causing you any loss.

I can only repeat my point that you insist on ignoring:

These products are not free. Therefor, if you use them without paying, you are in the wrong. And I get to complain about it and take whatever legal action I deem necessary to put an end to said practice.

You haven't given a single valid argument against this. Instead, you are simply trying to justify the illegal use of software products. Using quite bizarre reasoning like "you make enough money anyway"......

 

[Dave-W]

The equivalent of which is a software demo.

In a sense, yes. But most software demos have such short time limits (like 30 days) that a person does not have time to really familiarize themselves with the program; let alone explore the various features and aspects. And the best and most useful PROFESSIONAL programs have fairly lengthy learning curves. So the demo runs out while you are maybe only a quarter of the way thru that curve. That is not a good evaluation.

 

[Dave-W]

I'm going to take this magical wand and replicate your car, and then I'm going to drive away in that car.
What did I steal?

OR - I take your car apart and 3D scan each part and replicate it using a 3D printer. Then I reassemble your car and assemble mine for the first time. In one sense, I have stolen nothing. In another sense I have stolen a car. It depends on how you look at it.

 

[DogmaHunter]

In a sense, yes. But most software demos have such short time limits (like 30 days) that a person does not have time to really familiarize themselves with the program; let alone explore the various features and aspects. And the best and most useful PROFESSIONAL programs have fairly lengthy learning curves. So the demo runs out while you are maybe only a quarter of the way thru that curve. That is not a good evaluation.

The purpose of a demo is to evaluate the program. Not to completely learn every detail and every dark corner of it. You are confusing the evaluation of the software product with learning how to operate the product.

Having said that, demo's are a privilege, not a right.
I'll decide how to configure the demo version of my product. If I even decide to publish a demo version at all, that is.

I don't owe you any demo's, nore do I owe you any particular "free" period of anything.

 

[Dave-W]

We are a software company.
We build and sell software.
When people use our software products, we expect them to pay for it.
How unethical of us, right?

In a former career I had a coworker who was a programmer (also a very good guitarist). We had designed and built an optical measuring machine and he was making custom software for statistical analysis of the parts coming off of the production line.

To do the calculations, each measurement needed to be stored in a database. SO he looked at 4 or 5 professional DB programs; and did not like any of the overall packages. Each program had some features he liked and others that he did not - so he took how each one did what he liked and put them together (no, he did not de-compile them) and came up with his own custom database program and did the whole thing over 1 weekend.

Did he steal anything?

BTW - the company that made the optics we used was so impressed they hired him out from under us.

 

[Dave-W]

The purpose of a demo is to evaluate the program. Not to completely learn every detail and every dark corner of it.

Ah - but those "dark corners" can be deal breakers.

 

[DogmaHunter]

In a former career I had a coworker who was a programmer (also a very good guitarist). We had designed and built an optical measuring machine and he was making custom software for statistical analysis of the parts coming off of the production line.

To do the calculations, each measurement needed to be stored in a database. SO he looked at 4 or 5 professional DB programs; and did not like any of the overall packages. Each program had some features he liked and others that he did not - so he took how each one did what he liked and put them together (no, he did not de-compile them) and came up with his own custom database program and did the whole thing over 1 weekend.

Did he steal anything?

Did he use any modules he was supposed to pay for, without paying for them?

That is to say, did he break any of the licencing agreements of any of the 4 or 5 database products?