Feminists Adorning the Hijab???

[essentialsaltes]

Sharia law, which most Muslims want, means when a country's law goes by the Quran.

Right, but as we've seen, sharia is subject to local interpretation. Some sharia countries consider men's and women's testimony equally.

 

[SolomonVII]

Sharia law, which most Muslims want, means when a country's law goes by the Quran.

Of course, if people donning the hijab disagree that sharia law and the Koran are at the heart of Islam, then they are more than free to take that argument to Muslims who are "hijacking the religion" and insisting otherwise.

I would be very happy for hijad wearing westerners to convince Muslims that stoning and other misogynistic practices are against the Prophet, but the mere fact those very people are only making the case against Judaism and the Bible is evidence in itself that they understand as well as anybody that no such case can be made.
Under the western jurisprudence that comes with colonialism and imperialism and western dominance in general, the hijab was becoming less popular.
With the rise of Islamism and the traditional views of sharia law and stoning etc once again coming to the fore, the hijab also comes back into vogue.
And while there are possibly such things as coincidences, rest assured that this isn't one of them.
Western leftists have donned the garb of the people that hate the West.
Birds of a feather and all.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I would be very happy for hijad wearing westerners to convince Muslims that stoning and other misogynistic practices are against the Prophet, but the mere fact those very people are only making the case against Judaism and the Bible is evidence in itself that they understand as well as anybody that no such case can be made.

So you're saying that Western influence cannot influence misogynistic practices.

Under the western jurisprudence that comes with colonialism and imperialism and western dominance in general, the hijab was becoming less popular.

So you're saying that Western influence can influence misogynistic practices.

 

[SolomonVII]

So you're saying that Western influence cannot influence misogynistic practices.

If I had actually said that that is indeed what I would have been saying. Since I did not say that, then you are quoting your own imagination.
Tell me, what else does your imagination tell you that I am saying?

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Right, but as we've seen, sharia is subject to local interpretation. Some sharia countries consider men's and women's testimony equally.

Hypothetically, if someone offered you 100 million dollars to live for ten years either in a randomly selected Muslim country or in a randomly selected Christian country (with the 100 million dollars being given only after the ten years living in that country has been completed) which one would you choose? Would it be to live in the randomly selected Muslim country for ten years or the random Christian country for ten years?

 

[essentialsaltes]

Hypothetically...

I've never denied that human rights in many Muslim countries are appalling. The point remains that Islam is broad enough to encompass many different flavors, and we have seen historical changes from less liberal to more liberal and back again. All three major Abrahamic faiths have stoning to death in their holy texts. There is no reason to think that Islam is magically and uniquely welded to a monolithic view on the matter, while the others evolved over time. A variety of opinions already exists, and we know these views have changed over time.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

All three major Abrahamic faiths have stoning to death in their holy texts.

“but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. Early in the morning he came again to the temple; all the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst they said to him, 'Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such. What do you say about her?' This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, 'Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.' And once more he bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. But when they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the eldest, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. Jesus looked up and said to her, 'Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?' She said, 'No one, Lord.' And Jesus said, 'Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not sin again.'” - Jn 8:1-11 (The Holy Bible)

 

[TLK Valentine]

That homosexuality is evil and a sin against god?

No, I know for a fact that parent ship off their kids to camps... I've had friends who have participated ("survived" might be a better term) such experiences.

PROTIP: They don't work.

We never agreed that.

We've never agreed that there is a difference between a child who chooses to believe that they're inherently evil and a child who is browbeaten to believe it?

Fine then -- I believe there's a difference; you believe what you wish.

So what is the difference between a gay christian child who is constantly told that a particular behavior is wrong, because it goes against her religion, who eventually comes to believe that the behavior in question is wrong (for moral reasons)...

...and a muslim girl who is raised to believe that a certain behavior is wrong, because it goes against her religion, who eventually comes to believe that the behavior in question is wrong (for moral reasons)?

Why none, of course.

In the case of the gay christian child who eventually hates all homosexual behavior, believes those who engage in it are immoral and offensive to god...you believe he's brainwashed.

And so he is. Self hatred isn't healthy.

In the case of the muslim girl who comes to believe that she should wear a hijab because it increases her connection to god, and it keeps her from being judged on appearance (which is astoundingly ignorant), and muslim women who don't wear it are immoral....well she's just making an informed choice! She hasn't been brainwashed at all!

I've never heard of a girl committing suicide over a hijab... have you?

I've never heard of a girl being told -- day in, day out; year in, year out -- that who they are is something inherently evil and unless they find some way to change it, no matter how hard it may be, it will never be sufficient to convince a father figure (to say nothing of her real father and mother) that they are worthy of love... have you?

Does sexuality really mean as little to you as fashion?

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

Lol thanks for clarifying that....you're a credit to Islam.

Don't know if that was sarcasm or not, but neither God nor Islaam need me. I need them.

Why doesn't a man need to go to court for a divorce? Why does he just get to decide that he's divorced? Why must a woman prove she has a good reason for divorce in court? Since there's a gigantic double standard there....it appears as if a man's word carries more weight in Islam than a woman's word.

A good reason being as simple as the two not being compatible or the marriage being harmful to the practicing of her religion. The end result is the same: a divorce if one of them wants it. Either way, it's the rule and we hear and obey God.

You were responding to my post about how men and women are equal spiritually and in terms of the magnitude of rewards and punishments. Divorce is not included in that. You seem to ignore that when the man wants a divorce, the woman keeps the dowry he gave her and she is also given an additional gift whereas the woman gives back the dowry he gave her if she requests the divorce.

I don't see you complaining about how women are not required to provide the man with a gift when she wants a divorce from him. Or that mothers are given priority of the children up to a certain age and custody passes on to the child's maternal grandmother before it passes onto the father. In some things, men have it ostensibly easier and in others, women do.

 

[Ana the Ist]

No, I know for a fact that parent ship off their kids to camps... I've had friends who have participated ("survived" might be a better term) such experiences.

PROTIP: They don't work.

On that we agree...yet others don't.

We've never agreed that there is a difference between a child who chooses to believe that they're inherently evil and a child who is browbeaten to believe it?

No...it seems we don't. Whether we take a child to church every Sunday and tell him about who is good and who is evil, or if we require that child to pray five times daily as a constant reminder, or we send that child to a camp where unspeakable things happen...the effect is the same. The techniques/means may differ...but the result/ends are the same.

No one comes into this world thinking that two men who love each other are evil....or that women who don't cover their heads are harlots. There's nothing empowering or to be celebrated about any of it.

Fine then -- I believe there's a difference; you believe what you wish.

I bet you do TLK.

Why none, of course.



And so he is. Self hatred isn't healthy.



I've never heard of a girl committing suicide over a hijab... have you?

I've never heard of a girl being told -- day in, day out; year in, year out -- that who they are is something inherently evil and unless they find some way to change it, no matter how hard it may be, it will never be sufficient to convince a father figure (to say nothing of her real father and mother) that they are worthy of love... have you?

Yeah...sure have.

Does sexuality really mean as little to you as fashion?

You think that the two are unrelated? Go read the words of ex muslims on how they used to view the hijab.

 

[TLK Valentine]

You think that the two are unrelated? Go read the words of ex muslims on how they used to view the hijab.

I have -- and if you don't think there's a difference between changing your orientation and changing your clothes, there's not much I can do for you.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I've never denied that human rights in many Muslim countries are appalling. The point remains that Islam is broad enough to encompass many different flavors, and we have seen historical changes from less liberal to more liberal and back again. All three major Abrahamic faiths have stoning to death in their holy texts. There is no reason to think that Islam is magically and uniquely welded to a monolithic view on the matter, while the others evolved over time. A variety of opinions already exists, and we know these views have changed over time.

The problem essential, is that you don't seem to have a clue about how and why these "variety of opinions" have evolved. You show a picture of 70s Iran with women in skirts and say "see? Things can change!" and it's like you have no idea why that happened. The last dynastic ruler of Iran was westernized in his education...he was trying to show the west how much Iran could change. Do you understand that it's part of why he was thrown out of power and a cleric was installed to rule? It wasn't some moderate version of Islam that was gaining popular opinion...it was one dictator's efforts to curry favor with the west. Do you remember the "coup" attempt in Turkey about a year ago? It was considered by many the last gasp of secularism in that nation.

I'm not saying Islam can't change...I'm saying it won't in it's current form. There are liberal and moderate pockets of Islam that are increasingly quiet because conservative Islam isn't fond of differences of opinion. It's fond of threatening lives and killing dissenters. That tends to undermine any real discussion about change.

Conservative Islam isn't going to change until it starts failing....and when even those in the west are afraid to speak out against its abuses and "traditions"...well that's not going to encourage change is it?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I have -- and if you don't think there's a difference between changing your orientation and changing your clothes, there's not much I can do for you.

You asked me if "sexuality" meant as little as "fashion"....I asked you if you thought the two were unrelated. They aren't.

As for the ex-muslim women you've read...what did they say about the hijab? Liberating? I'm genuinely curious because it's almost always the same story when those women realize what's been done to them.

 

[TLK Valentine]

You asked me if "sexuality" meant as little as "fashion"....I asked you if you thought the two were unrelated. They aren't.

Nor are the comparable.

As for the ex-muslim women you've read...what did they say about the hijab? Liberating? I'm genuinely curious because it's almost always the same story when those women realize what's been done to them.

No, they didn't. but we're not talking about ex-Muslims adorning it, are we?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Nor are the comparable.

In your mind.

No, they didn't. but we're not talking about ex-Muslims adorning it, are we?

When you want to find out what those "pray the gay away" camps are really like...do you listen to the people who have escaped them? Or the people running them?

 

[LivingWordUnity]

The problem essential, is that you don't seem to have a clue about how and why these "variety of opinions" have evolved. You show a picture of 70s Iran with women in skirts and say "see? Things can change!" and it's like you have no idea why that happened. The last dynastic ruler of Iran was westernized in his education...he was trying to show the west how much Iran could change. Do you understand that it's part of why he was thrown out of power and a cleric was installed to rule? It wasn't some moderate version of Islam that was gaining popular opinion...it was one dictator's efforts to curry favor with the west. Do you remember the "coup" attempt in Turkey about a year ago? It was considered by many the last gasp of secularism in that nation.

I'm not saying Islam can't change...I'm saying it won't in it's current form. There are liberal and moderate pockets of Islam that are increasingly quiet because conservative Islam isn't fond of differences of opinion. It's fond of threatening lives and killing dissenters. That tends to undermine any real discussion about change.

Conservative Islam isn't going to change until it starts failing....and when even those in the west are afraid to speak out against its abuses and "traditions"...well that's not going to encourage change is it?

Strangely, today's liberal leaders don't want any of the Muslim countries to be secular.

Instead, they've been supporting the Islamists who've been trying to take over everywhere.

And then the liberal leaders act like they don't know how ISIS came about.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Strangely, today's liberal leaders don't want any of the Muslim countries to be secular.

Instead, they've been supporting the Islamists who've been trying to take over everywhere.

And then the liberal leaders act like they don't know how ISIS came about.

I think it's a little more complicated than that...I think if you look at the Obama administration and their comments around the "Arab Spring" it's rather clear that they hoped at least democracy and equality would take root...if not begin to flourish.

It's a gross misunderstanding of what Islam is and what it does.

The reason for that misunderstanding, like so many liberal problems, is rooted in "identity politics". There's a pervasive notion that all cultures should be respected (and in many cases preserved) and "whites" (especially conservative whites) want to destroy the beautiful cultures and traditions of minorities, or co- opt them, etc.

No consideration is given to the idea that maybe...just maybe...some of those cultures are really awful, and their traditions brutally oppressive. To give that idea any credence...the liberal would have to drop their entire identity politics narrative.

The problem is that by the time they realize that perhaps some of these cultures they're trying so hard to protect...would immediately stamp out their culture if they could, but will settle for doing it piecemeal. It's unfortunate that by the time the left starts asking those questions...chances are the problem is too big to deal with easily.

 

[SolomonVII]

To be totally fair, of course many Christians consider homosexuality to be a sin, even if the response of concentration camps under the sharia of Chechnya is a little different than the usual "love the sinner, hate the sin" response of conservative Christianity.
What I would wonder though, is how do we differentiate feminists adorned in hijabs who abhor concentration camps for homosexuals from those women in hijabs who support this version of sharia?

Gay concentration camps in Chechnya - Wikipedia

Since February 2017, over 100 male residents of the Chechen Republic (part of the Russian Federation) assumed to be gay or bisexual have been rounded up, detained and tortured by authorities on account of their sexual orientation.[1] These crackdowns have been described as part of a systemic anti-LGBT purge in the region. The men are held and allegedly tortured in what human rights groups and eyewitnesses have called concentration camps.[2][3]

Many of Russia's LGBT laws apply in Chechnya, which is a part of the Russian Federation. However, Chechnya is a semi-autonomous republic within Russia's borders, with its own legal code. In Chechnya, as in other southern Russia regions, Russian President Vladimir Putin "has empowered local leaders to enforce their interpretation of traditional values, partly in an effort to co-opt religious extremism, which has largely been driven underground."[15] Although homosexuality was legalized in Russia in 1993,[16] in 1996 Chechen president Aslan Maskhadov adopted sharia law in his Republic, and article 148 of the Chechen penal code made all sodomy punishable by caning on the first two offences and execution on the third offence[13]​

 

[essentialsaltes]

Do you remember the "coup" attempt in Turkey about a year ago? It was considered by many the last gasp of secularism in that nation.

Do you remember the coup attempt of 90 years ago? It introduced secularism in that nation.

I'm not saying Islam can't change...I'm saying it won't in it's current form.

Duh. If Islam changes it is no longer its current form. But Islam has changed in the past, and it will change in the future. A secular America can accommodate all religions, so long as its adherents comport themselves peaceably, as Washington described.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Do you remember the coup attempt of 90 years ago? It introduced secularism in that nation.

The fall of the Ottoman empire introduced secularism...and I don't think I'd call it a coup. Basically the ruling elite looked at what worked and what didn't....and decided that to compete with the west they needed to secularize. To do that, they had to place an extraordinary amount of restrictions on Islam...which weren't popular...and have slowly been removed over the past 90 years.

Again...it's as if you're completely ignorant of how Islam has "progressed" through history.

Duh. If Islam changes it is no longer its current form.

Not what I said.

But Islam has changed in the past, and it will change in the future. A secular America can accommodate all religions, so long as its adherents comport themselves peaceably, as Washington described.

How well do you think Washington understood Islam?

Can you think of any nation, under Islam, which has steadily become more liberal? Just out of curiosity...