Feminists Adorning the Hijab???

[Smidlee]

I've never denied that human rights in many Muslim countries are appalling. The point remains that Islam is broad enough to encompass many different flavors, and we have seen historical changes from less liberal to more liberal and back again. All three major Abrahamic faiths have stoning to death in their holy texts. There is no reason to think that Islam is magically and uniquely welded to a monolithic view on the matter, while the others evolved over time. A variety of opinions already exists, and we know these views have changed over time.

There is a huge difference in the Old Testament that the breaking of the law leads to death BUT can't save no one and the Quran teaching that the law (and stoning) is man's salvation. I hear some Muslim teachers act as stoning homosexuals is doing them some kind of favor.
The Old Testament didn't evolved ( as in mutated) over time as the battle of Islam vs Christianity started with Cain and Abel. Over time the truth became more detailed but it was told from the beginning.

 

[TLK Valentine]

In your mind.

Right -- because in my mind sexuality and clothing are not interchangable.

Are they in yours?

When you want to find out what those "pray the gay away" camps are really like...do you listen to the people who have escaped them? Or the people running them?

Do the feminists run the hijabs?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Right -- because in my mind sexuality and clothing are not interchangable.

Are they in yours?

No...but they are related.

Do the feminists run the hijabs?

I'd think it's rather obvious what the answer is to that...

It's good to see that you're doing your best to avoid the point. It means you understand and realize you don't have any counter point.

 

[TLK Valentine]

No...but they are related.

Not in the sense that they're interchangeable. Glad we agree on that.

I'd think it's rather obvious what the answer is to that...

Then give the obvious answer.

It's good to see that you're doing your best to avoid the point. It means you understand and realize you don't have any counter point.

The point being that forcing someone not to do something can be every bit as oppressive as forcing them to do it?

Not sure how I'm the one avoiding it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Not in the sense that they're interchangeable. Glad we agree on that.

No...just related.

Then give the obvious answer.

Why?

The point being that forcing someone not to do something can be every bit as oppressive as forcing them to do it?

Not really, but I think you're onto something there...

I was really making a point about how you don't turn to someone who is personally invested in propping up an oppressive ideology in order to find out whether or not that ideology is indeed oppressive...you turn to those who have abandoned it...as you do with those who have accepted their homosexuality and abandoned the shaming and abuse of the christian "gay camp". You're certainly aware of plenty of "christians" who swear that they have learned to successfully suppress their homosexual urges with the help of such camps...yet I'm pretty certain it's not their narrative that you believe, is it?

So why in the world would you take the word of a muslim girl telling you that the hijab is a symbol of feminism over the word of a former muslim girl who says it's oppressive?

 

[TLK Valentine]

Why?

To show that it's not as obvious as you would have us think.

Not really, but I think you're onto something there...

I was really making a point about how you don't turn to someone who is personally invested in propping up an oppressive ideology in order to find out whether or not that ideology is indeed oppressive...

I'm turning to the feminists.... are they oppressing anyone if they choose to wear a hijab?

you turn to those who have abandoned it...as you do with those who have accepted their homosexuality and abandoned the shaming and abuse of the christian "gay camp".

So how many Muslim women have escaped from the feminists?

You're certainly aware of plenty of "christians" who swear that they have learned to successfully suppress their homosexual urges with the help of such camps...yet I'm pretty certain it's not their narrative that you believe, is it?

I believe it individually until their inevitable relapse.

So why in the world would you take the word of a muslim girl telling you that the hijab is a symbol of feminism over the word of a former muslim girl who says it's oppressive?

Because oppression, by definition, cannot be a choice. One cannot choose to be oppressed.

The hijab is not the problem -- it's the act of forcing one to wear it against their will. Feminism is, at its core, about the right for women to make their own choices free of external control or judgement. Any woman -- Muslim or not -- who chooses... and it should be added, chooses for themselves and nobody else... to wear a hijab is.... what?

Oppressing herself?

 

[RDKirk]

It's never wise to compete in the oppression Olympics, but "patriarchal beliefs and assumptions about the role of women in society" lead to violence against women in a lot of places. Just as Pakistan has laws against honor killing, many countries in Latin America have specific laws against femicide. This is not just women being murdered, but "victims [who are] are often blamed for being out late or hanging around "questionable" areas such as discotecas or nightclubs".

"Since 2000, more than five thousand women and girls have been brutally murdered in Guatemala [a country with less than a tenth the population of Pakistan]. Guatemala's historical record reveals a long history of acceptance of gendered violence and the military government's and judiciary's role in normalizing misogyny."

The country with the highest rate of acid attacks on women is Colombia (with a population of about a quarter of Pakistan's). "In 2014 many Colombian women were victims of acid attacks, 871 women died from these attacks; in the first 10 months of 2015, 671 women died."

Now, I'm sure no one here supports any of this. But neither does the act of an American woman choosing to wear hijab.

This discussion isn't only about whether men in a country are misogynistic, but also--and to a great deal--whether the dominant religious culture and religious leadership agrees with it, supports it, and justifies it by religious argument.

 

[MehGuy]

Wonder how feminists would feel about the hijab if the population of people who adhere to Islam were mostly white men? Lol..

 

[essentialsaltes]

This discussion isn't only about whether men in a country are misogynistic, but also--and to a great deal--whether the dominant religious culture and religious leadership agrees with it, supports it, and justifies it by religious argument.

Latin America is predominantly Catholic, which is pretty patriarchal as an organization, one must admit. The region has "some of the world's most restrictive abortion policies". A particular view of the Virgin Mary provides the ideal for women... subordinate, passive, suffering, wives and mothers in the home. Women who do not remain virginal... must suffer the consequences. And femicide is one such societal consequence. While Catholicism may not currently be doing much to support 'macho' attitudes, neither is it doing much to fight it.

"Women's groups have blamed the church for reinforcing stereotypes, such as blaming women for violence because of the way they dress.

Last year, for example, activists demonstrated in front of the cathedral in San Jose, Costa Rica, after a bishop urged women to dress "modestly" and with "decency" and to not become "an object anymore.""

 

[RDKirk]

Latin America is predominantly Catholic, which is pretty patriarchal as an organization, one must admit. The region has "some of the world's most restrictive abortion policies". A particular view of the Virgin Mary provides the ideal for women... subordinate, passive, suffering, wives and mothers in the home. Women who do not remain virginal... must suffer the consequences. And femicide is one such societal consequence. While Catholicism may not currently be doing much to support 'macho' attitudes, neither is it doing much to fight it.

"Women's groups have blamed the church for reinforcing stereotypes, such as blaming women for violence because of the way they dress.

Last year, for example, activists demonstrated in front of the cathedral in San Jose, Costa Rica, after a bishop urged women to dress "modestly" and with "decency" and to not become "an object anymore.""

Nope, you did not in any way address what I said:

This discussion isn't only about whether men in a country are misogynistic, but also--and to a great deal--whether the dominant religious culture and religious leadership agrees with it, supports it, and justifies it by religious argument.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Nope, you did not in any way address what I said:

I think it does. The influence of Christian patriarchal thinking on Latin American 'machismo' is profound. But maybe it's usually more subtle. You don't usually get the Christian equivalent of a 'religious' argument like "Islam orders women to wear this kind of clothing. It says women's bodies are not meant to be on display for everyone, just for their husbands. Hijab is a way for women to be in communion with Allah."
Usually.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Wonder how feminists would feel about the hijab if the population of people who adhere to Islam were mostly white men? Lol..

I wonder how they would feel if the population were little green people from Neptune?

Who cares?

 

[MehGuy]

I wonder how they would feel if the population were little green people from Neptune?

Who cares?

Seriously?

No, they'd be much less forgiving of its customs. You know double standards and stuff.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Seriously?

No, they'd be much less forgiving of its customs. You know double standards and stuff.

Seriously. Who cares?

You can concoct as many hypothetical diversions as pleases you, but do you really think it's going to successfully distract from the current reality?

 

[MehGuy]

Seriously. Who cares?

You can concoct as many hypothetical diversions as pleases you, but do you really think it's going to successfully distract from the current reality?

Hypothetical diversion? To help distract from what reality? That feminists give people a pass based on whether or not a group is predominantly brown enough? Lol.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Hypothetical diversion? To help distract from what reality? That feminists give people a pass based on whether or not a group is predominantly brown enough? Lol.

You seem to be far more interested in your hypothetical than what's being discussed. We'll just leave you to it, then.

 

[MehGuy]

You seem to be far more interested in your hypothetical than what's being discussed. We'll just leave you to it, then.

Yeah, me and my crazy hypothetical scenarios.

Lol..

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

 

[Joshua_5]

Yeah, me and my crazy hypothetical scenarios.

Lol..

Most who call themselves feminists aren't smart enough to realise they are simply pawns in a much larger game, which has nothing to do with freedom nor special privileges for females. Its about genocide, population reduction and control.

I have nothing against women who want to wear a hijab, although I draw the line against such barbaric practices (on others), such as female genital mutilation.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Wonder how feminists would feel about the hijab if the population of people who adhere to Islam were mostly white men? Lol..

It's just like Russia. I don't like Russia personally, but if Putin and the government were dark skinned, you know they wouldn't be crying about rigged elections and Trump ties. It wouldn't have ever been an issue for the left.