Feminists Adorning the Hijab???

[Ana the Ist]

I'm not actually an expert in Islam.

You've already shown this....that's why I posted those questions to Love, not you. When I want an amateur opinion, I'll be sure to turn to you.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Correct, 'the patriarchy' has taken advantage of women, regardless of religion.

Wonderful, so you agree that this sort of cultural practice which oppresses women is something that we should speak out against? Perhaps even shame those who would advocate for it?

 

[SolomonVII]

Adorning the hijab is really sending the message that people really, really are opposed to the patriarchy that lashes and stones women to death.

That is really showing those male chauvinists, isn't it?

 

[TLK Valentine]

You're making too broad of a generalization though...you make it sound as if we live in some fantasy land where no one is ever manipulated by others. That's not reality.

No, it's not reality -- and it's certainly not what I was saying. Although I can't help the things you think you hear.

I have too....and I speak out against that behavior as well. Sometimes, they send the child away to a "gay camp" where they're taught to hate their homosexuality because it's a sin against god. Do you think that's true?

I know for a fact it is.

Do you think that it's ok to take a child and teach them to hate themselves over their sexuality....even if they agree, believe, accept that homosexuality is a sin?

Of course I don't think so -- people should be free to choose what they believe... just like they should be free to choose what they wear.

After all, its what they choose to believe isn't it? So what if it ends up in suicide...we need to respect their beliefs don't we?

But we just agreed it's not what they choose to believe -- it's what they get shipped off to a camp and (for lack of a better word) brainwashed to believe.

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

Oh I see....so the punishment for men who commit adultery in Islam is the same as the punishment for women?

Yes.

How about the right to a divorce?

Divorce is not a reward or punishment. It's not completely equal, though in ways other than what you may imagine. If a man requests the divorce, then the woman keeps the dowry he gave her. On top of her keeping the dowry, he has to give her a gift: And for divorced women is a provision according to what is acceptable - a duty upon the righteous. (Surah Baqarah 2:241)

If a woman requests the divorce, then she must give back the dowry he gave her(unless the husband does not require it, as far as I know).


But again, don't use me to make a political point. I'm not playing your game.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Doesn't the Quran say that women are worth less than men when giving testimony in court?

 

[essentialsaltes]

Doesn't the Quran say that women are worth less than men when giving testimony in court?

Kinda sorta. Not exactly.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I know for a fact it is.

That homosexuality is evil and a sin against god?

But we just agreed it's not what they choose to believe

We never agreed that.

-- it's what they get shipped off to a camp and (for lack of a better word) brainwashed to believe.

So what is the difference between a gay christian child who is constantly told that a particular behavior is wrong, because it goes against her religion, who eventually comes to believe that the behavior in question is wrong (for moral reasons)...

...and a muslim girl who is raised to believe that a certain behavior is wrong, because it goes against her religion, who eventually comes to believe that the behavior in question is wrong (for moral reasons)?

In the case of the gay christian child who eventually hates all homosexual behavior, believes those who engage in it are immoral and offensive to god...you believe he's brainwashed.

In the case of the muslim girl who comes to believe that she should wear a hijab because it increases her connection to god, and it keeps her from being judged on appearance (which is astoundingly ignorant), and muslim women who don't wear it are immoral....well she's just making an informed choice! She hasn't been brainwashed at all!

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yes.

I guess the news got it all wrong then...

Woman faces being stoned to death for adultery - while man to receive 100 lashes

Divorce is not a reward or punishment. It's not completely equal, though in ways other than what you may imagine. If a man requests the divorce, then the woman keeps the dowry he gave her. On top of her keeping the dowry, he has to give her a gift: And for divorced women is a provision according to what is acceptable - a duty upon the righteous. (Surah Baqarah 2:241)

If a woman requests the divorce, then she must give back the dowry he gave her(unless the husband does not require it, as far as I know).


But again, don't use me to make a political point. I'm not playing your game.

Marriage & Divorce

From that page....

"A man can divorce his wife simply by saying ‘I divorce you’ three times. He can rescind the divorce if this was done in the heat of the moment, but only if the wife agrees (and only on three occasions!). On the other hand, even if a wife has good reason to seek a divorce (e.g. if her husband has been unfaithful, abused or deserted her, or engaged in criminal activity), she must go to a court for the case to be heard. "

So please, let's not pretend that men and women are equals under Islam, or that they have equal rights, or any such nonsense. Muslim women having been inching towards equality and at great risk to their lives and livelihoods.

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

I guess the news got it all wrong then...

Woman faces being stoned to death for adultery - while man to receive 100 lashes

1.) You're quoting what a country did, not what Islaam says.
2.) Maybe pay attention to the nuances? The man was never-married. The woman was married. In shari'ah, those not married get lashes, men or women. Similarly in shari'ah, those married are stoned, men or women.

Marriage & Divorce

From that page....

"A man can divorce his wife simply by saying ‘I divorce you’ three times. He can rescind the divorce if this was done in the heat of the moment, but only if the wife agrees (and only on three occasions!). On the other hand, even if a wife has good reason to seek a divorce (e.g. if her husband has been unfaithful, abused or deserted her, or engaged in criminal activity), she must go to a court for the case to be heard. "

So please, let's not pretend that men and women are equals under Islam, or that they have equal rights, or any such nonsense. Muslim women having been inching towards equality and at great risk to their lives and livelihoods.

The wife of Thaabit ibn Qays ibn Shammaas (may Allaah be pleased with them) came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said, “O Messenger of Allaah, I do not find any fault with Thaabit ibn Qays in his character or his religious commitment, but I do not want to commit any act of kufr after becoming a Muslim.” The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her, “Will you give back his garden?” Because he had given her a garden as her mahr. She said, “Yes.” The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to Thaabit: “Take back your garden, and divorce her.” [Sahih al-Bukhari]

If the husband does not grant the divorce, the woman goes to the Islaamic court who can grant her the divorce without her husband's consent, forcing her husband to comply.

 

[Ana the Ist]

1.) You're quoting what a country did, not what Islaam says.
2.) Maybe pay attention to the nuances? The man was never-married. The woman was married. In shari'ah, those not married get lashes, men or women. Similarly in shari'ah, those married are stoned, men or women.

Lol thanks for clarifying that....you're a credit to Islam.

The wife of Thaabit ibn Qays ibn Shammaas (may Allaah be pleased with them) came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said, “O Messenger of Allaah, I do not find any fault with Thaabit ibn Qays in his character or his religious commitment, but I do not want to commit any act of kufr after becoming a Muslim.” The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her, “Will you give back his garden?” Because he had given her a garden as her mahr. She said, “Yes.” The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to Thaabit: “Take back your garden, and divorce her.”

[Sahih al-Bukhari]

If the husband does not grant the divorce, the woman goes to the Islaamic court who can grant her the divorce without her husband's consent, forcing her husband to comply.

Why doesn't a man need to go to court for a divorce? Why does he just get to decide that he's divorced? Why must a woman prove she has a good reason for divorce in court?

Since there's a gigantic double standard there....it appears as if a man's word carries more weight in Islam than a woman's word.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Doesn't the Quran say that women are worth less than men when giving testimony in court?

Kinda sorta. Not exactly.

That sounds like an evasive way of admitting that it does. Here's what it says about court testimony:

"And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women." Quran (2:282)
.

 

[essentialsaltes]

That sounds like an evasive way of admitting that it does.

No, it isn't.

Here's what it says about court testimony:

"And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women." Quran (2:282)
.

If you had quoted the whole sura, you would see that it refers specifically to a financial matter or debt. As I already informed you.

Elsewhere, (24:6-8), the Koran says that when a man accuses his wife of infidelity, and she denies it, she is to be believed over him. As I already informed you.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

No, it isn't.

If you had quoted the whole sura, you would see that it refers specifically to a financial matter or debt. As I already informed you.

Elsewhere, (24:6-8), the Koran says that when a man accuses his wife of infidelity, and she denies it, she is to be believed over him. As I already informed you.

So it's only in matters of debt that it says that a man is worth more than a woman?

That's how you are defending it?

 

[essentialsaltes]

So it's only in matters of debt that it says that a man is worth more than a woman?

That's how you are defending it?

I didn't say I was defending it. I was correcting your misinformation.

If I were to defend it, it would only be as a reflection of its time and place, much like the similar misogyny in the Bible, which did not have the benefit of our modern ideas of equality. Talmudic courts generally did not allow women or slaves to testify (and still don't for all I know among the ultra orthodox).

Or to make a comparison to the legal idea of coverture, by which married women in the US and England had no legal existence of their own, and could not hold property or enter contracts. Although it was "peculiar and obsolete" in 1966, it was still the law in eleven states at that time, and the defendant in the case linked was absolved of paying back a defaulted loan, because she was legally unable to bind herself to such a contract.

In the early 1960s, women could still not serve on juries in Alabama, South Carolina, and Mississippi. Their competency to hear and judge testimony was in question.

Patriarchal thinking is found in many, maybe all, cultures. I'm certainly not defending it, but similar discrimination was going on in our own country within living memory, much less 1500 years ago.

 

[SolomonVII]

The time and the place is the House of Islam in the twenty first century.

 

[essentialsaltes]

The time and the place is the House of Islam in the twenty first century.

Well your original question was about the Koran. While some modern Muslim states count women's testimony as 'half' that of a man's in some cases or only in sharia courts, other modern Muslim states count them equally in all cases. As I have already mentioned.

 

[SolomonVII]

Well your original question was about the Koran. While some modern Muslim states count women's testimony as 'half' that of a man's in some cases or only in sharia courts, other modern Muslim states count them equally in all cases. As I have already mentioned.

I didn't have an original question.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I didn't have an original question.

My apologies.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

I didn't say I was defending it. I was correcting your misinformation.

If I were to defend it, it would only be as a reflection of its time and place, much like the similar misogyny in the Bible, which did not have the benefit of our modern ideas of equality. Talmudic courts generally did not allow women or slaves to testify (and still don't for all I know among the ultra orthodox).

Or to make a comparison to the legal idea of coverture, by which married women in the US and England had no legal existence of their own, and could not hold property or enter contracts. Although it was "peculiar and obsolete" in 1966, it was still the law in eleven states at that time, and the defendant in the case linked was absolved of paying back a defaulted loan, because she was legally unable to bind herself to such a contract.

In the early 1960s, women could still not serve on juries in Alabama, South Carolina, and Mississippi. Their competency to hear and judge testimony was in question.

Patriarchal thinking is found in many, maybe all, cultures. I'm certainly not defending it, but similar discrimination was going on in our own country within living memory, much less 1500 years ago.

Sharia law, which most Muslims want, means when a country's law goes by the Quran.