Female Pastors (oh no not again)

[Father Rick]

with regard to the galations scripture (being about salvation) Paul was not saying, there is no order in the house either, they are both the same, there is no order in the church...elders can be whoever...Thatis NOT what he is saying. He is stating that ALL can be saved, no matteer , poverty level, nationality, etc.

There should still be order in the house...man should be head..blah blah blah
and order in the house of God...men should be the overseers of the local church.

sorry for rambling...I appreciate the thoughts. Hopefully if people read this banter they will READ for themselves and know they must KNOW God's word

The word 'head' there does not mean leader/ruler, but rather 'source of'... as in the 'head' of a river. The entire discussion is how Christ is the 'head of the church'-- meaning source, origin, etc, in the same way that the man is the 'head' of the woman since the man was created first and the woman was taken from his side.

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. 9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. 12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

And just to make certain that this entire passage was not taken in a legalistic way, Paul concludes it

16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

When looking at these passages, one can't take a few verses and stop... you have to look at the entire passage to see what is being discussed/intended.

 

[Mark Downham]

The word 'head' there does not mean leader/ruler, but rather 'source of'... as in the 'head' of a river. The entire discussion is how Christ is the 'head of the church'-- meaning source, origin, etc, in the same way that the man is the 'head' of the woman since the man was created first and the woman was taken from his side.

Brilliant exegesis - if you are the Cornerstone - the weight of the whole edifice rests on you and you on Him. People do not see this but ask any ordained minister and they will tell you about the weight....

Mark

 

[Christian Dude]

If only the Bishoips would understand - said the Carpenter to the Warlus as they debated sacramental theology.

You can shoot me later.

Mark

*Falls out of my chair laughing!* That's a good one bro!

 

[Saulball]

so at least no rebuttal on Paul explaining that an overseer was to be a man? Again, he states clearly (and talks about BOTH sexes in the surrounding verses) that an overseer is to be a man.

mark,
not sure about Anglican or Catholic Bishops, or what you're saying.

CDude
NO, if a man forsakes his office that God would call another man, if thats his order. Example:God didn't intend for a woman to be the leader or guide (head) of the household, or to usurp the mans authority over the house. If a man is a wimp and won't lead his house, she shouldn't exert power over him and tell him and teach and give him orders. That is NOT god's order.

Again, David tried to do something good for GOD (bring up the ark), but it WAS NOT DONE "IN DUE ORDER", or after the way God intended it..ONLY the levites were to bring up the house. When David it did a good thing in the right way (divine order!) he was BLESSED! God loves us all Man or woman, but for leadership, according to the scriptures that should be a man, in the house of God.

Remember the simple instructions in the bible should be our lead, not what someone says who we think is "anointed". The bible is very clear on this issue, its easy for someone to disagree and explain it away with all sorts of bizarre arguments though.
shalom

 

[Christian Dude]

So you're saying for a woman to be passive?

Psh! If I got out of control I'd want my wife to smack me with a wet fish! *not really, but ya get the point*

Saulball, unfortunately... all I can say is I disagree with you and that if you really are against women preachers, why bother with continuously bombarding everyone and telling them they're wrong?

Not everyone will believe the same things as you, I've learned that the hard way myself.

So just get over everyone not believing your way and just let them be.

 

[Mark Downham]

not sure about Anglican or Catholic Bishops, or what you're saying.

Liturgical denominations effectively vest the office of Bishop with Apostolic governance - this has imoplications - particularly if they start to hold eisegetical and existential views on the nature of the absolute inerrancy and to be direct - infallibility of Scripture - subject to responsible exegesis under the direction of the Holy Spirit and compassionate pastoral application and practice.

Above everything - I will not trash the calling of Father Rick - let me tell you something he is in the Old Catholic denomination by the Will of God not by any human design and that has radical implications and an Ezekiel 37 ring.

Mark

 

[Christian Dude]

And did you not know that many different denominations will be in Heaven? As long as they accept Christ and do the will of God and stay in the faith, they will be rewarded.

 

[Mark Downham]

Brian

And did you not know that many different denominations will be in Heaven? As long as they accept Christ and do the will of God and stay in the faith, they will be rewarded.

I think you will find that when He starts to fill our ecclesiologies (how we do church), our liturgies (how we worsip), our traditions (our systematic application of doctrine) anmd oiur demnominations ( the sum expression of our disagreements and breaks over biblical interpretation, application and practice) - these things will pass away - there will be no denominations in Heaven -simply the Chuch in Him.

Ephesians 2: 19 -22

19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

I announced this to the Bishops of the Anglican Coomunion and then - after after a period of spiritual reflection - there was some excitement - shall we say -

Jesus will fill our ecclesiologies, our liturgies and our traditions which are the outward expression and the overflow of our hearts - he will fill everything - how incredible - when he starts to fill the Church with his presence and everything catches fire and is purified, transformed from one glory (shadow) to another (substance) (Ephesians 1:22,23).

Burn on, man - the energy and zeal of youth.

Mark

 

[heartofheaven]

I tend to agree with what Saulball wrote though...
God bless one and all!/QUOTE]

I move to the same understanding as Saulball and Oregal.

I think that Women's Lib has been one of the most destructive things satan inflicted on man and women. Not to say that God didn't move in it and do some good things as well, but all in all.....

Women in leadership - they can do it, and often have to, but I believe it harms them in a way that is not meant to be. It brings them out of their role as mothers and supporters of their husbands, and adds stresses to their lives that it has been shown women cannot cope with long term without something suffering. Women in full leadership take on masculine roles that diminish their right to be treated with respect and protection. This does not mean that women do not have the right to be heard and respected, but ultimately it is a man under God who should have final responsiblity.

There have certainly been some amazing women in Godly leadership, but usually because - as has been said - no man of God wants to take on the role.

I will have to agree with all three of you here,also.......... Whatever happened to the proverbs 31 women that we read about,and how she is praised and blessed,by who? her children, and husband,because she is taking care of home~ and business that she has for her home.The bible also talks about the older women teaching the younger women to be good wives and how to take care of the children,and so on. I know that we dont deal with facts as men do,but our emotions tend to get in there instead.Its not going to send anyone to hell for women preaching,but it is not teaching our children who is the head of the home if MOM is the one that is the preacher!I think it sends the wrong message,even though we are equal in the sight of God, He also sets up the home in proper order..........Ephesians 5~Wives,submit to your own husbands,AS to the Lord.for the husband is the head of the wife,as Christ is the head of the Church,wives be subject to your husbands as husbands are to Christ..........and so on.

 

[Father Rick]

so at least no rebuttal on Paul explaining that an overseer was to be a man? Again, he states clearly (and talks about BOTH es in the surrounding verses) that an overseer is to be a man.

Well, I did address this in post 36... but to go even further

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]*** 1:5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, [/font]

Touvtou cavrin ajpevlipovn se ejn Krhvth/, i&na ta; leivponta ejpidiorqwvsh/ kai; katasthvsh/ß kata; povlin presbutevrouß, wJß ejgwv soi dietaxavmhn,

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]*** 1:6 if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. [/font]

ei~ tivß ejstin ajnevgklhtoß, mia'ß gunaiko;ß ajnhvr, tevkna e~cwn pistav, mh; ejn kathgoriva/ ajswtivaß hov
takta. >

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]*** 1:7 For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, [/font]

dei' ga;r to;n ejpivskopon ajnevgklhton ei\nai wJß qeou' oijkonovmon, mh; aujqavdh, mh; ojrgivlon, mh; pavroinon, mh; plhvkthn, mh; aijscrokerdh',

This in the NAS translation with the greek listed as interlinear... it is important to note that the word 'MAN' is NOT in the Greek here. It is literally if 'any' is above reproach... so your argument that Paul is ONLY speaking to men is not appropriate at all here... now continuing on to the 'husband' (aner)-- that word has multiple meanings in Greek, one the ways in which that word is used is

used generically of a group of both men and women

which agains makes this much less clear than you try to state... basically, the actual scriptures do not say at all what you are using to defend your point, only your particular English translation of the scriptures. Even the King James does not include the word 'Men' in this passage.

 

[Father Rick]

BTW... the above post is interactive, in that you can click on the word in English and it will give you the greek word and definition...


taken from www.crosswalk.com 's interlinear Bible

 

[theywhosowintears]

I dod not start this topic as a discussion because alot of people cannot help stating church doctrine or personal belief as truth.

I AM ONLY INTERESTED IN SCRIPTURE (witha minimal amout of explination)


Having said that thank you all for your responses so far, there are some sensible posts from people of both oppinions.

 

[theywhosowintears]

Romans 16
1 I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church in Cenchrea, 2that you may receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and assist her in whatever business she has need of you; for indeed she has been a helper of many and of myself also. - Phoebe, a servant of the Lord, to be treated in amanner worthy of the saints.

3Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, 4who risked their own necks for my life, to whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. 5Likewise greet the church that is in their house. -Priscilla has a church in HER house

7Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me. - Junia is an Apostle.

((oh yeah you know who else was a lady? Mary was a lady! and she did a pretty important thing for God compared to running a local church.))


Peace

 

[Saulball]

Frick, if any be the husband of one wife...that is a man. Again, this scripture is filled with Male and Female references, but Paul only refers to Men as being overseers.

Cdude.

I never said women can't preach. Women were prophets, deaconesses, etc. Just the order PAUL set in the church they can't be an OVERSEER of a church. Just standing up for what the word says. Sorry if I offended you by it. But we must stick with the Bible in these times. The apostasy will be people not following the word, and rejecting divine truth, order even when they know what it says. I will not be politically correct.

SaulBall

 

[Father Rick]

Frick, if any be the husband of one wife...that is a man. Again, this scripture is filled with Male and Female references, but Paul only refers to Men as being overseers.

Saulball....

Your mind is made up before coming to the scriptures... therefore you will find what you want.

The best you have to support you view is the phrase 'husband of one wife'. As I already pointed out, here the word 'husband' can be used generically to mean either men or women. Especially since the word for 'wife' here (gune) is translated best 'woman'-- with wife only being a secondary meaning. Quite frankly, if you REALLY wanted to be fussy... You could interpret that phrase the woman of one wife. Or 'the man of one woman'... or 'the woman of one woman...' Well obviously that is not what it means--- and we know that from Paul's other writings. But the fact that the choice of wording here is the most generic possible makes any strict emphasis of this as being only a 'man' is extremely poor linguistics. If Paul wanted this to be interpretted as for men only, there are a whole lot of better ways to say that that are NOT ambiguous. It is very obvious here (at least in the original language anyways) that this was written in a generic sense.


And again... doctrine is NEVER to be based on a single reference but rather the compilation of teaching about a specific subject. If you wanted to take single references.... well....

Judas went out and hanged himself...

Go ye and do likewise...

Whatsoever ye do, do it quickly for the Son of Man cometh....

You can take single references and make scripture say anything.

How's this

O God, be merciful unto me: for my soul trusteth in thee: yea, in the shadow of thy wings will I make my refuge

So now God has wings... does He use them to fly?


I don't mean to sound sarcastic with those.... only to show that you can't take a single reference by itself, especially if the reference has multiple possible translations. This is what you appear to be doing here---- taking your preferred translation of this passage, and ignoring other passages, so that you can support your personal theology.

Personally, the fact that scripture is vague sometimes can be really frustrating to me. There are many times that I would LOVE for the Scriptures to just come out and say what I want them to... and unfortunately, translators tend to put their 'slant' on certain issues-- which is why it is good to look to the original languages when there are differences of interpretation.

 

[JimB]

I dod not start this topic as a discussion because alot of people cannot help stating church doctrine or personal belief as truth.

I AM ONLY INTERESTED IN SCRIPTURE (witha minimal amout of explination)


Having said that thank you all for your responses so far, there are some sensible posts from people of both oppinions.

What is 'explination'?
\o/

 

[Saulball]

Fatherick

Actually, that is not a correct assumption about me. I thought for a long time women could be overseerers (elders, bishops). I was fooled by the scripture you quote, Galations 3:28 "there is neither male nor female, jew nor greek". However, after a study of the PASSAGE, it is obvious to the reader that this is talking about Salvation, not order in the church or household. Therefore, while not popular, I have taken the literal bible application. I have not taken one verse. There are 2 main books on Church order: 1 timmy and Titus (I'm sure you would agree, as you obviously have alot of knowledge). Both of these books deal with the overseer with PASSAGES, not a simple verse. In both, Paul is showing the difference between women and men in the PASSAGES around these verses, even saying women can be deaconesses! But yet when he goes to the Elder (Bishop, or overseer) he refers to this as being a man, the husband of one wife. He does not in either BOOK refer to this being an office for a woman. There are other scriptures that deal with a woman not usurping authority or teaching the man, BUT they don't reference OVERSEERERS, nor have I referenced them in my argument. Additionally, there is NO overseerer that is a women in the book of ACTS. SO, I've used the 2 church order books and ACTS.

The LITERAL application is that MEN are to be overseerers of the local church. I didn't write it, Paul did, inspired by the HOLY GHOST. I guess we could spiritualize anything, take verses like Galations 3:28 out of context to argue against it, or explain it away. BUT I believe this is a VERY clear matter. Just not very popular, so in these last days, people have wilted to POPULAR opinion rather than GODS word and a LITERAL translation of it. I won't reprint all those verses, but anyone can read titus or 1 timmy to see what Paul says.

Shalom

 

[Father Rick]

Saulball...

Let me ask you a question...

Do you believe a single man can be an overseer/bishop?

 

[`Raine]

OK, we've established that Paul does not permit women to be pastors/overseers (at least, not in Corinth), or to have aythority over men .
We've also established that Yahweh raised up some women as leaders in the OT, and that there were at least a few women ministering in the NT.

So, do we follow Paul and forbid all female pastors/teachers/leaders, or do we look at them on an individual basis, as we should any leader or teacher, to see if they are called to their position by Yahweh, and fulfilling His will?

 

[Saulball]

start it on another thread diffeerent topic, I will answer there.

we have examined every possible angle, I think I have thoroughly proved my point by using both books on church order, and the ACTS. so hopefully, we're finished here, and inspired many to study the church order books.