father issues

[FireDragon76]

Does anybody else have trouble relating to God as a father?

In the past two years, my relationship to my own dad has just gotten worse. The only time we even remotely get along is over a beer. Otherwise, he just gets on my nerves. I've always had issues with my dad, though, and I can see it now. But lately he's been unbearable. He has a lot of character flaws and they just get worse with age. He is not a churchgoing man, either, and the small circle of friends he has is worrisome (Vietnam vets with PTSD they refuse to treat).

I have a better relationship to the pastor at church that my own father. I can talk to the pastor, but I can't talk to my own dad except the most superficial things.

I have a background as an Orthodox Christian and I always found it easier to pray to Mary. But now that I go to a Lutheran church (and I've begun to break ties with Orthodoxy, realizing I'll probably never find a home there) I feel a certain feeling that I just don't know how to pray anymore- the desire is just gone. It feels like the idea of fatherhood is oppressive, not something I want to relate to. It's even difficult to want to relate to Jesus. But, I don't pray to Mary just because of all the hard feelings I have about my Orthodox experience, the fire or zeal to practice anything "orthodox" is gone, and I worry about being "inauthentic" if I were to do so. But I find Lutheran spirituality leaves me cold (I'm not even sure Lutherans have spirituality, honestly). The sticking point is that I feel accepted at that church and they sort of do some of the same things Orthodox Christians do. But my prayer life is now close to zero.

 

[Tigger45]

Having very similar life experiences I find praying to the Holy Trinity to be the most powerfully dynamic (if that makes sense) and praying to the Holy Spirit being very sweet and tender. Being that we do not belong to a fully confessional Lutheran synod, we are more free to incorporate a wider span of Christianity to fit our needs. Lutheranism offers very clear biblical teachings and embraces historic Christianity but does have a cerebral approach to religion. This is where I incorporate the mysticism and spirituality of Catholism and Orthodoxy. Don't become disillusioned and lose out on what a good pastor and warm congregation have to offer to your human soul.

 

[Radrook]

God's fatherhood isn't comparable to a any human fatherhood with all its possible defects based on human imperfection and defective socialization. God's fatherhood is perfect. My father never spoke to me nor showed interest in an of my concerns. Yet God our heavenly father tells us to bring our worries to his attention and tells us that we should come to him with our concerns in prayer because he cares for us. That's a big difference.

 

[victorinus]

Does anybody else have trouble relating to God as a father?

who hasn't had issues with their father?
-
the issues are yours

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

Sorry to hear about the difficult relationship with your father, FireDragon. Sounds like he would've been a better one had he not served in Vietnam. Perhaps the situation requires you to be patient with him, accept him for who he is, and just get on with your own life, not blaming yourself either. A counsellor might be useful if you can afford one.

 

[Fish and Bread]

Does anybody else have trouble relating to God as a father?

In the past two years, my relationship to my own dad has just gotten worse. The only time we even remotely get along is over a beer. Otherwise, he just gets on my nerves. I've always had issues with my dad, though, and I can see it now. But lately he's been unbearable. He has a lot of character flaws and they just get worse with age. He is not a churchgoing man, either, and the small circle of friends he has is worrisome (Vietnam vets with PTSD they refuse to treat).

I have a better relationship to the pastor at church that my own father. I can talk to the pastor, but I can't talk to my own dad except the most superficial things.

I have a background as an Orthodox Christian and I always found it easier to pray to Mary. But now that I go to a Lutheran church (and I've begun to break ties with Orthodoxy, realizing I'll probably never find a home there) I feel a certain feeling that I just don't know how to pray anymore- the desire is just gone. It feels like the idea of fatherhood is oppressive, not something I want to relate to. It's even difficult to want to relate to Jesus. But, I don't pray to Mary just because of all the hard feelings I have about my Orthodox experience, the fire or zeal to practice anything "orthodox" is gone, and I worry about being "inauthentic" if I were to do so. But I find Lutheran spirituality leaves me cold (I'm not even sure Lutherans have spirituality, honestly). The sticking point is that I feel accepted at that church and they sort of do some of the same things Orthodox Christians do. But my prayer life is now close to zero.

Stories like yours are almost verbatim why some progressive parishes and congregations in certain churches and denominations are beginning to use "In the name of the Creator, and of the Redeemer, and of the Sanctifier" in place of "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" in some liturgies and prayers. A lot of times they cite more drastic examples of people who have been hurt by men, like rape and domestic violence victims, who feel like they need to break from what has been handed down linguistically in order to get in touch with a Christian spirituality. Some of these folks are even victims of their own biological fathers.

I can't fault people for trying to think of different ways to think about and talk about God. In a way, particularly in the case of the member of the trinity who we traditionally call Father, God's maleness is metaphorical at best. I mean, God the Father almost certainly doesn't have the chromosones that determine gender, or any primary or secondary sexual characteristics. And God begot a son, in what sounds like a process that may have been closer to childbirth, which is something women do, or the asexual reproduction of an amemba. I don't mean to trivalize it, I just think that sometimes we think about these things in a narrow way that works for most people, but not for all people, and that the lost sheep are important too, however small a minority they may be.

The bible actually talks about an allegorical Christ-like figure named Wisdom, a woman (Pronouns like "she" are used), who is often thought as a precursor or analogue to Jesus, who St. John tells us at the beginning of his Gospel is the Word. God the Father is spoken of at ome point as gathering us together under her wing as a mother hen gathers her offspring, and though tradition speaks of the Holy Spirit as male, we are really talking about a divine wind, and there is no maleness inherent in the name or the way the spirit is presented in scripture.

Even though I have no extra issues with men relative to women in my background (I don't get along with everyone equally. ), I did spend a few months on here always referring to God with feminine pronouns, except when quoting someone directly who didn't, or when talking about Jesus. I think that helped me spiritually, expanding my conception of God.

Historically, cultures that have predominantly feminine gods or images of God are less likely to be warlike, on average, for whatever reason.

Now, all that said, I am a bit wary of messing with formulas for sacraments in particular. Breaking with 2,000 years of tradition there presents potential sacramental validity issues in terms of whether or not a sacrament is effectacious, and also ecumenical issues in terms of whether other churches and denominations will accept, for example, baptisms not done in the traditional formula, and whether we want to split churches and denominations further a part from one another.

There is also that the formula I described earlier is not a 1 to 1 substitute for what it's replacing. Instead of listing the three persons of the trinity, it lists three characteristics of God. Some people think that each one corresponds to part of the trinity, but scripture and tradition have all three parts of the trinity participating in creation, and so on and so forth.

Finally, obviously if we were all to switch to feminine pronouns for God, it'd cause the same type of issues for people who have mother or women issues as what we do today causes people who have father or men issues.

So, its a complicated thing. I suppose I take a via media (middle way) here. I think its valid to think of and describe God as female with pronouns and such, as well as to simply systematically refuse to use gender pronouns for God (Just using "God", which is only one extra letter relative to "he" ). Some of that can be worked into both personal prayer and liturgies with groups on Sunday mornings (Or whenevever). However, I would not change the formula for baptism, the words of the institution where the Eucharist is consecrated, or other things of that nature- I'd like to stay true to tradition on those things and be on the safe side when it comes to going with what works and what the consensus has been ecumenically. There is a lot of room to work with other ways to think and describe God without touching the direct center of the sacraments, though.

Remember, God created us male and female in the image of God's self. Both genders. Everything good we see in either gender reflects the divine.

 

[FireDragon76]

I think the issue goes deeper than what images we use about God. The ELCA is already fairly inclusive in that area. I think there's only so much you can do with that language, anyways, before you become a functional Unitarian.

Honestly, I've been messed up ever since Trump won the election, like I have a profound doubt about the world and about God. I feel like I'm still waiting for God to give the punchline to this practical joke. I guess I'm angry at God, and this is what anger feels like. Not outrage, we just don't talk anymore- it figures that I'd do something passive-aggressive, I guess. And when I go to church, I'm on autopilot. I feel something at church, and it feels spiritual, but it doesn't inspire me towards having all the usual hallmarks that Christians here associate with "faith"- spending time reading the Bible or talking to God. And honestly I'm OK with that, I rationalize it by saying that I don't earn my salvation, it has been given to me as a gift, and if I can't appreciate it the way other people think I should, that's OK.

 

[FireDragon76]

Sorry to hear about the difficult relationship with your father, FireDragon. Sounds like he would've been a better one had he not served in Vietnam.

Just to be clear... my dad was not in Vietnam. He sat in a missile launch control station in Missouri during Vietnam. But his small circle of friends has a lot of Vietnam vets with untreated PTSD. And they refuse to see it as something for which they need help. They turn instead to gun fetishism and resentment and its rubbing off on my dad. He has heart failure now, and I can't help but think it's like somebody who's been poisoned continuing to drink from a bad well.

I guess I'm just dreading the holidays. My S.O. goes home to her family, who are absolutely repulsive, and I go to mine. My family isn't quite as bad as hers, I guess I have that to be thankful for.

I know Christians are supposed to "honor your father and mother", but I find that commandment impossible to fulfill now days. It's a messed up world where your own parents can't make you feel particularly loved. I guess it bothers me that my partner and I separate during the holidays. So, it's a lonely, bleak time of year and it ruins Christmas.

 

[archer75]

I surely appreciate @Fish and Bread 's post above, and can only add that rather than thinking of God as "similar" to a bad human father (please believe me when I say I sympathize with you here), some people try thinking of God as the "true" Father and recognizing that all human fathers are imperfect, sometimes woefully imperfect.

Might also try divorcing your Marian devotion from the bad experiences you've had in "worldly" denominations that venerate Mary. I was in a similar though milder situation recently and tried praying Hail Marys and just focusing on the words and their meaning, not letting that core rub up against objectionable worldly things that are (sadly) associated with Marian devotion.

 

[FireDragon76]

It's tough to go to a Lutheran church because... Mary was how I would relate to God/Jesus when things got tough. But now, going to a Lutheran church, it just feels strange. There isn't even a statue of Mary anywhere in the church (most Episcopal churches around here have her somewhere).

I don't go to the Episcopal churches down here because they are frankly too much like fundamentalists in many ways, and the people there are often stuffy WASP types. Since the Pulse shooting, things have gotten better but I still have a lot of bad feelings about how unwelcomming the churches have been towards LGBT people. And one clergyman I interacted with put me down for living with somebody I'm not "legally" married to, oblivious to the fact we both are disabled and disabled people rarely can marry anyways. I had expressed a desire at one time to go through the process of discerning a vocation (the pastor at the Lutheran church said that he didn't see it as a barrier).

I actually do go to a therapist... she is an Episcopalian woman. One time she was talking to me about the "Holy Family" a few weeks ago. She was just trying to compare Jesus' family to my own, and point out how Jesus didn't exactly have a traditional family, either. My therapist as an Episcopalian doesn't at all reflect on the leadership of the diocese around here, unfortunately. I just sat their but on the inside I didn't want to believe it. I'm used to the word "holy" being a put down on people like me... I've bought into the self-loathing and I can't shake it... so I just don't feel particularly close to any of it anymore.

Christians are really good at shooting their wounded, you know.

Like I said, the pastor is very accepting of our living situation and encouraging, but at the end of the day... something spiritually feels broken in me and I'm not sure how Lutheranism can fill that.

BTW, I never prayed the Hail Mary... it was not part of my spirituality and I don't care to take it up. The Catholic image of Mary in my mind is not one I am drawn to. I prefer the Greek/Russian mother image I encountered in Orthodoxy... less sentimental, less focused on the sublimated romantic chivalry thing (go read about St. Maximilian Kolbe for instance, that kind of spirituality is pretty alien to Orthodoxy but common in traditional Catholicism). I have a little icon of the Virgin of Vladimir with a light near it but I just don't really do anything with the icon anymore. In the past, just talking to Mary was the way I connected with Jesus. Now, I don't know how to... Jesus seems remote, except perhaps mediated through my church experience.

I'm not sure what to make of my Orthodox past- it's the only kind of Christianity I really spiritually connected with, but ultimately I found very flawed people, judgementalism and rejection. I told my Lutheran pastor, if anybody has been crushed by religious demands, it's me. I really do understand Luther's message- I'm just not sure how to live out that faith. Luther has sort of deprogrammed the religious part of me and made me irreligious 6 days of the week, in my mind. I just go to church out of habit.

 

[archer75]

Can you find a home fellowship or something that will allow for a diversity of practices -- not hassle you about your domestic setup while also allowing or encouraging your veneration of Mary?

The Episcopal churches around here would seem to fit that description. Sorry to hear that your local ones don't.

 

[hedrick]

Lutheran churches vary, just like Episcopal do. It's possible for people within the Lutheran tradition to venerate Mary. Luther had a higher view of her than typical Protestants today, and some current Lutherans follow that. But that doesn't mean that your church does.

I'm not a Lutheran, obviously, but my impression is that Luther's piety tended to center on Jesus. I think a suffering brother might be more helpful for you than a father. As a (non-Lutheran) Protestant I'd be happier with that than with focusing on Mary.

 

[FireDragon76]

Tigger, its good to see you around. I thought you were becoming Melkite? Perhaps I was mistaken

I definitely appreciate the supportive pastor and the friendly parishoners. I've met few truly nonjudgmental Christians, but the pastor at church seems to be one of them. He sees his Lutheranism as keeping to the Catholic faith... so he doesn't reject all Catholic practices. Months ago he and I attended a Catholic Mass on the feast of the Assumption of Mary, preceded by an exposition of the Blessed Sacrament. We were both amazed by the dignity of the services, and we participated as best we could and as conscience allowed. Reading the litany of prayers to the saints wasn't something we abstained from, but we did not participate in receiving Communion out of respect for the Church's magisterial teachings.

Lutheranism does indeed have a cerebral bit, especially in its theology. But it does have some spirituality, though in my estimation it tends to be shallowly sentimental. There are some voices such as Nadia Bolz-Weber that bring a great deal of grittiness and reality to Lutheranism (at least in the ELCA), though.

Today and yesterday's services at church were good, they helped me connect a bit with the Gospel. The pastor used a passage from one of Weber's books talking about the mess of the Nativity, trying to get us to look at the Christmas story again, without sentimentality, to see its true meaning. I believe that was very helpful because sometimes in the past, the sermons and imagery has been very sentimental and I can't easily connect with that.

At one point the pastor opened the service with a dedication to the Creche. He encouraged everyone to kneel or sit, and then he read a litany of self-dedication to the Christ-Child. If I were more Orthodox, I would be really tempted to have done a proskynesis (prostration)... but you know, I'm not sure how the congregation would have taken that (besides, prostration is a lot easier on the knees). I'm so used to bowing, kissing, and prostrating in front of images, a simple kneeling in a pew leaves me wanting more.

 

[FireDragon76]

I think my issues are deeper. I really think I am the victim of spiritual abuse. Even if you believe you do the right thing, religion can make you feel like garbage for doing it. I think that's the root of a lot of my problems, why I feel like I want to be close to religion/God, but not too close. The truth is, I just go to church now because I am afraid of being socially isolated, friendless, and adrift. I don't really have the "fear of God", and maybe that's a good thing. I used to be a very sincere Christian but lately I'm cynical about everything in life.

I told my pastor in some ways I think Luther's message should be a lot more alive to me than a lot of his congregation, and maybe it is but... I think with the modern ELCA they have, on the whole, moved far beyond ministering to spiritually wounded people. I think my pastor is one of the few that really has any inkling this is still a problem out there. Maybe Lutheran pastors like Nadia Bolz-Weber as well, since she grew up in a fundamentalist church, and there's just something about her preaching that seems sensitive to that sort of thing. But a lot of the church seems busy talking about social justice issues relevant to the guilt of the white middle class.

 

[hedrick]

But a lot of the church seems busy talking about social justice issues relevant to the guilt of the white middle class.

I'm in a church that emphasizes social justice, though prayer and spiritual matters are also important to us. As far as I can tell, we're concerned about social justice because we care about people, and think both Jesus and the prophets encouraged us to do so. I'm not sure where the idea of white middle-class guilt comes from.

 

[FireDragon76]

I'm a lot more skeptical of human abilities to achieve justice. I also have a lot of experience with other cultures and ways of thinking about the world, and I don't like marrying the Gospel to any particular worldview. It's hard not to see an ethnocentric bias in the construction of justice used in many mainline churches. Sometimes this notion of justice is used to support jingoism, even militarism, on the part of the establishment. For instance, I remember the invasion of Afghanistan being justified in some peoples minds in the name of liberating the women of Afghanistan, etc.

Another example: a current issue in mainline churches is divestment in the state of Israel, a pet cause of the political left (one that I do not agree with). I think this is just another case of a certain class of people having inordinate influence in mainline churches, and falling for the latest sociopolitical fads. It's no doubt partly due to the general Anglo-American protestant tendency to value holy living as the primary consideration of what defines a Christian. I'm very sensitive to the reality that evangelical Protestants often make a mess in the name of "saving" the world (go read about the history of modern China some time if you want a textbook case of this).

Lutheranism probably suits me, in this respect, because it's focused more on holiness in the small scale of a person's individual vocation. I notice even in the ELCA it is being influenced by the wider cultural trend towards prioritizing social justice/progressivism as shaped by secular academics. It does seem however this isn't present in all ELCA churches- many do take spiritual matters very seriously and let the church be the church and the culture be the culture.

 

[hedrick]

I'm not a great fan of that kind of divestment. But social justice for us includes both participation in various ministries aimed at people who need help, and support for political approaches that would help the defenseless. I think there's good Scriptural justification for both. Jesus spoke both about prayer and about loving action. We should do both.

 

[graceandpeace]

I'm sorry to hear this.

Lately my own troubles stem from both the election & battles with doubt.

I love my church, I have friends there, the clergy members are good people...but I feel hopelessly sad that so many people in this country (including in my own family) have this terrifying marriage between their brand of Christianity & right-wing politics. The sadness runs so deep, I'm not sure if I can get over it. (To be fair, there are problems on the left-wing side as well...but not to the point, as far as I've seen, of accepting widespread deception via "fake news," etc.)

Then there is my own doubt, which is ever present but magnified lately. I think I'm just frustrated. I know the Bible requires study, requires thought, that biblical literalism is wrong...but I think I'm out of patience with other Christians who quote verses & use them like arrows to be critical of my beliefs (that took time & thought to get to). It would be easier & perhaps more gratifying to just flip my allegiance to atheism, & become the thorn in their side.

I feel so sad that I feel this way. I dreaded the holidays as well this year, but I made it through. I hope you can find peace. I know family can be difficult. I'm not sure about imagery about God. I've always accepted the traditional language, so I'm not sure about the alternatives.

 

[FireDragon76]

I love my church, I have friends there, the clergy members are good people...but I feel hopelessly sad that so many people in this country (including in my own family) have this terrifying marriage between their brand of Christianity & right-wing politics.

Yeah, they are now joined at the hip, it seems.

Then there is my own doubt, which is ever present but magnified lately. I think I'm just frustrated. I know the Bible requires study, requires thought, that biblical literalism is wrong...but I think I'm out of patience with other Christians who quote verses & use them like arrows to be critical of my beliefs (that took time & thought to get to).

Several months ago I had to walk away from a Bible study on the Old Testament. It was just too triggering. It's OK, IMO, if we don't like certain parts of the Bible. I'm a Christocentric kind of Christian. Luther was, after all, willing to write off certain books as "straw". Go and do likewise.

It would be easier & perhaps more gratifying to just flip my allegiance to atheism, & become the thorn in their side.

I would love to be an atheist but I realize spirituality and religion are an important part of being human. I don't think being a "none" is the answer. One thing I realize about my particular Lutheran church is you don't have to be particularly pious or feel "religious" to find acceptance and peace there.

And I think that is the answer. We have to be different kinds of Christians. Ones that rise above the petty tribalism of "religion". Putting down the crack pipe of works-righteousness in all its forms would be a good first step. Salvation is a done deal, it's not dependent on which way the world turns, or our ability to produce a particular kind of political outcome. I think that perspective has helped me in these past few days.

I realize the issues Luther raised are still pertinent today- something I did not understand months ago. I used to not understand how that was possible. I thought Lutheranism was a nice safe church, but the issues just weren't relevant. Yet, many Christians in the US today have only being really reformed outwardly- outwardly they are Protestant but inwardly they have the worst kind of religious tendencies.

I'm not sure about imagery about God. I've always accepted the traditional language, so I'm not sure about the alternatives.

A few days ago I decided to put up my Nativity set, finally. The little statue of Mary was blond and I figured that just wasn't right, so I repainted her hair. Doing that let me reflect on the pastors sermon. Especially the part of the sermon where he talked about the Madonna of Stalingrad, an icon a pastor drew on Christmas Eve in 1943. I remembered the big nativity set the pastor had in front of the altar, the kneeling and prayer in front of the crèche, the sermon he gave, and things just started being put back together. For the first time in a long time, I could actually really appreciate a church service. It had everything I recognized in an Orthodox church service, it was pushing all the right buttons. But in a church in which I was genuinely accepted. And my devotion to Mary I inherited from the Orthodox church fit in with the theme of this time of year, it was not a liability. I realized that there is something God is saying about himself through Mary, and this is true even in a Lutheran church.

I think the Kingdomtide season, the pre-Advent season that the RCL uses, is so difficult to work with from a Lutheran perspective. A pastor really has to work to get some "good news" in there. It was definitely a dry period for me. It's one reason I wish that the older lectionary were used (I believe it may be in some conservative Lutheran churches).

This is one of the reasons I think the spiritual side of Lutheranism appeals to me. It is true the ELCA, like other mainline churches, has shifted its emphasis towards social justice, but the ELCA is probably one of the least political of all the mainline churches. And the inability of people to deal with each other on a non-political level, and the divisiveness of religion in the US, is part of the reason we are in this mess politically. What the Church shouldn't be doing is being another voice in the cacophony, but an antidote to the madness.

 

[TurtleAnne]

My biological father was an abusive and perverse alcoholic. In present day I take some comfort in perceiving God as the father figure I actually needed/need in my life, in addition to as a Heavenly Father. Kind of one and the same, in a way, but it's like.. I think that's important for people to have, in general, and if we didn't have good earthly fathers, we still have a perfect Heavenly Father. But that is just my present day take on it. My heart was very terrified and hardened of/towards God for many years of my life, because my biological father often tried to justify his abuse towards our family with Biblical scriptures, distorting them so as to justify his abusive behavior as God's will. It took decades before I was able to separate the perverse distortions and lies of my biological father, from the faith that is my own.