"Fatal Flaw" in predestinary theory

[cygnusx1]

Cygnusx1,



Really, would you mind documenting that for me?


So, it goes with many new borns. They die before they breathe. There is no guarantee that one will remain in the relationship with Christ.




that might be your view and interpretation, but it has never been the understanding of scripture. Could you document your assertion.
Obviously you do not have John 3:5 in your Bible, they work in tandem. They are never apart, water and the Spirit.

what a mockery you make of the new birth , it only lasted a few minutes with Simon Magus , you would have us believe !!!

and seeing that thousands upon thousands who were baptised as infants who later show no signs whatsoever of being born-again completely undermines the dogma of Baptismal regeneration , you cannot make anyone a Christian by pouring water over them , such an idea is superstition and has absolutely no bearing in scripture , the agent for Regeneration is NOT water but The Holy Spirit and God's word. Water baptism is an appeal to God for a clean conscience , it is a baptism of repentance and faith in Christ.

The New birth is NOT as open to mishap and decay as you imagine ;

1 John 5:4

International Standard Version (©2008)
because everyone who is born from God has overcome the world. Our faith is the victory that overcomes the world.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world-- our faith.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
because everyone who has been born from God has won the victory over the world. Our faith is what wins the victory over the world.


King James Bible
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

American King James Version
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith.

American Standard Version
For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith.





Arthur W. Pink in the Exposition of the Gospel of John (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1975) writes, “If then the Lord Jesus used the word “water” emblematically in John 3:5, to what was He referring? We answer, The Word of God. This is ever the instrument used by God in regeneration” (110).




James Montgomery Boice in The Gospel of John, Vol. 1 (Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 2005, paperback edition) writes, ”Water is also a metaphor for the written Word of God, the Bible. Thus, Ephesians 5:26 says that Christ gave himself for the church “to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word.” In I John the same author who composed the fourth Gospel distinguishes between the witnesses to Christ on earth of ”the Spirit, the water and the blood” (I John 5:8). Since he then goes on to speak of God’s written witness to the fact that salvation is in Christ, in this context the Spirit must refer to God’s witness within the individual, the blood to the historical witness of Christ’s death, and the water to the Scriptures. Psalm 119:9 declares, “How can a young man keep his way pure? By living according to your word.”



Jesus said, “You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you” (John 15:3) (201).

 

[cygnusx1]

Proponents of Baptismal Regeneration

The Roman Catholic Church was one of the earliest and most influential perpetrators of this error. Roman Catholic teaching most certainly has not changed in recent years either, nor has the "Charismatic Catholic" departed one iota from the belief that salvation is secured by ritual baptism into the Roman Catholic Church: Vatican Council II says, "The saving act of Jesus was applied to Mary in the moment of her conception; to us in our baptism. . ." (Lumen Gentium 1, 53); ". . .I have washed you clean and given you new life, my life in baptism [these were supposedly the words of Christ Himself]" (Prophecy from the 1988 Roman Catholic Charismatic Conference at Notre Dame). Rome teaches baptismal regeneration.
The Orthodox Churches also teach baptismal regeneration: "Baptism is a new birth. It is being born to the life made new by our Lord Jesus Christ. It means to be alive in Christ... Through Holy Baptism all become Christ's. We become Christians and have the opportunity to inherit God's Kingdom... Why in the world would any parents who claim to be Christians want to put off making their offspring Christians as soon as possible? Don't they want their infants to share in the Kingdom of God? The baptized one becomes a member of Christ's body-His Church" (Doctrine of the Russian Orthodox Church, ONE CHURCH, 1981).
Mormonism says you must be baptized in order to be saved: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, they who believe not on your words, and are not baptized in water in my name, for the remission of their sins, that they may receive the Holy Ghost, shall be damned, and shall not come into my Father's kingdom where my Father and I am" (Mormon Doctrine and Covenants, nos. 84:74).
Seventh Day Adventism teaches baptism is the vehicle in procuring the forgiveness of sins: "Is it necessary for a person to be baptized to be saved? Answer: Yes, indeed! ... A Christian is a newborn 'babe' in Christ. This is why the experience or conversion is called 'the new birth.' No past exists in God's sight. It was buried in the watery grave of baptism...." ("Buried and Forgotten by God!"; a Seventh Day Adventist publication).
The Church of Christ, Episcopalians, an many Lutherans hold the false doctrine of baptismal regeneration in one form or another. The Jehovah's Witnesses and many others could be added to this number, many within Protestantism included.
These groups invariably equate membership in their particular church with salvation itself. With notable consistency, religious bodies which profess to be "the one true church" incorporate ritual baptism as an essential step in their "What must I do to be saved" formula. It is claimed that by means of this ceremony one is introduced into the membership of the "church which alone can save."
Every believer who has shared the Gospel of God's saving grace with a Catholic knows the common reaction: "Of course I believe in Christ as my Saviour!" However, after further questioning, it becomes obvious that "belief" in Christ is not their sole confidence, for they believe that their continuance in faithfulness to "the church" and the sacraments of the church are also essential if there is to be any hope of obtaining everlasting life. That kind of "believing in Christ" is not the unconditional, absolute faith that produces Bible salvation.



http://www.feasite.org/Tracts/fbcbaptr.htm

 

[Rightglory]

Cygnusx1,

what a mockery you make of the new birth , it only lasted a few minutes with Simon Magus , you would have us believe !!!
and seeing that thousands upon thousands who were baptised as infants who later show no signs whatsoever of being born-again completely undermines the dogma of Baptismal regeneration , you cannot make anyone a Christian by pouring water over them , such an idea is superstition and has absolutely no bearing in scripture , the agent for Regeneration is NOT water but The Holy Spirit and God's word. Water baptism is an appeal to God for a clean conscience , it is a baptism of repentance and faith in Christ.
The New birth is NOT as open to mishap and decay as you imagine ;

You have no understanding of what a relationship entails as per scripture. Your relationship with Christ lasts only as long as your faith in Him. Magus didn't last long, neither did the examples of the seed on the roadside. The NT is filled with examples and exhortations of not losing faith. Losing faith is losing the relationship. Repentance is the only way back. Sin separates God and man, always has and always will.

And why would a person leaving the relationship undermine regeneration.
That you do not believe in any sacrament is quite understandable. Most protestants don't which is why nothing is sacred. It comes from faulty theology. A modern gnostic version. Christ redeemed the world and all in it is good. For protestants in general salvation the Gospel has become personalized, humanized and pertinent only to the person making the interpretation as his own private faith. Hardly the Gospel.

Water was specifically set aside for that purpose, as was bread and wine, as was the Priest himself. They all have a role in the sacraments of Christ and His Church. Christ redeemed the world and using the material for human beings who are material is quite reasonable. You have deconstructed Christianity to oblivion.


Those many quotes from all your favorite sources as to definition, ALL DEPENDS ON YOUR FAITH. It is YOUR faith that overcomes the world. Can you lose faith, quite easily. Every single NT book except two, has spent an inordinate amount of words explaining to you that it is quite easy and we must guard against it.

Your view denies God the very reason He has created us. He created us to commune with us and for us to bring Him glory. We do that when we freely desire to be in that communion. He created us free so that we could choose who we will serve. God does not either force us, or block us from entering or leaving. It is a mutual, covenantal relationship, not a forced arrangement.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Jesusfreak5000:
So let me get this straight. If you believe that a believer's sin separates him from God in a judicial sense, then it logically follows that you believe that one who is truly saved "falls away" from salvation each and every time they sin.​

Question --- is salvation "being indwelt by Jesus and the Spirit"?
(Yes.)

Question --- does Jesus participate in sin?
(No.)

Question --- when we sin, do we by definition turn away from God?
(Yes.)

Question --- if we can WALK in sin, would that be identical to "unbelief"?
(Yes.)

In Heb12 is a wonderful discussion about submitting to God's discipline, including what happens to us if we refuse His discipline --- we will be "illegitimate and not sons". verse 25 is undeniable: "Much less shall WE escape who turn away from God".

See if you can deny anything that's been said in this post; first my parenthetical answers, then Heb12 --- and see if you can deny what's happening in Heb10:26-29.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Jesusfreak5000:
So let me get this straight. If you believe that a believer's sin separates him from God in a judicial sense, then it logically follows that you believe that one who is truly saved "falls away" from salvation each and every time they sin.​

Question --- is salvation "being indwelt by Jesus and the Spirit"?
(Yes.)

Question --- does Jesus participate in sin?
(No.)

Question --- when we sin, do we by definition turn away from God?
(Yes.)

Question --- if we can WALK in sin, would that be identical to "unbelief"?
(Yes.)

In Heb12 is a wonderful discussion about submitting to God's discipline, including what happens to us if we refuse His discipline --- we will be "illegitimate and not sons". verse 25 is undeniable: "Much less shall WE escape who turn away from God".

See if you can deny anything that's been said in this post; first my parenthetical answers, then Heb12 --- and see if you can deny what's happening in Heb10:26-29.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Jesusfreak5000:

What I would like to know is how one who is saved is said to be "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise", who is given to us as a pledge, yet is taken away from the believer each and every time He sins?​

You're seeing this from the wrong direction --- the Spirit is not "taken away from us'; we voluntarily throw Him away. In Heb10:29, the Spirit can be insulted. (And 10:35 "do not thrown away your confidence", only means "do not throw away Jesus".) In Eph4:30, the Spirit can be grieved.

While passages like Rom11:29 assert that GOD will not revoke our gifts and calling, WE have the choice by diligence (or not) in regard to FORFEITING our calling and election. That's the only thing 2Pet1:5-10 can mean, JF.

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This is what your original statement leads to...​

Let's see how you answer Eph4:30, Heb10:29 & 35.

Quote:'
Give me the scripture on this one, Ben.​

Just did. What do you think Heb12:25 means?

 

[Rightglory]

Cygnusx1,

Your quote for the anti regenerational baptism is a very good example of the deconstruction of the Christian Church and Scripture. It almost makes a direct statement against what our relationship is with Christ. It directly deconstructs the fact that Christ is the Church, it is membership into His Body, not a mythical body of someone's own construction. It is baptism that enters one into that relationship. It has been that way from the beginning and it has never changed. It has never been challenged even by false heresy against it.

The only heresy has been the Protestant reformation when they broke with all sacraments. Only Luther and later the Episcopalians retained some form of sacrament in their worship.

The last sentences imply quite strongly that one is not necessarily saved by being IN Christ. That apparently there are other ways to be saved. By what other means do they have in mind when entering into Christ is not necessary, His Body, His Church?

It seems that Mormons and Seventh Day Adventist got some of it right.
All you have shown is that protestants have departed from Christianity as it is believed and practiced from the beginning.

 

[cygnusx1]

Cygnusx1,



You have no understanding of what a relationship entails as per scripture. Your relationship with Christ lasts only as long as your faith in Him. Magus didn't last long, neither did the examples of the seed on the roadside. The NT is filled with examples and exhortations of not losing faith. Losing faith is losing the relationship. Repentance is the only way back. Sin separates God and man, always has and always will.

And why would a person leaving the relationship undermine regeneration.
That you do not believe in any sacrament is quite understandable. Most protestants don't which is why nothing is sacred. It comes from faulty theology. A modern gnostic version. Christ redeemed the world and all in it is good. For protestants in general salvation the Gospel has become personalized, humanized and pertinent only to the person making the interpretation as his own private faith. Hardly the Gospel.

Water was specifically set aside for that purpose, as was bread and wine, as was the Priest himself. They all have a role in the sacraments of Christ and His Church. Christ redeemed the world and using the material for human beings who are material is quite reasonable. You have deconstructed Christianity to oblivion.


Those many quotes from all your favorite sources as to definition, ALL DEPENDS ON YOUR FAITH. It is YOUR faith that overcomes the world. Can you lose faith, quite easily. Every single NT book except two, has spent an inordinate amount of words explaining to you that it is quite easy and we must guard against it.

Your view denies God the very reason He has created us. He created us to commune with us and for us to bring Him glory. We do that when we freely desire to be in that communion. He created us free so that we could choose who we will serve. God does not either force us, or block us from entering or leaving. It is a mutual, covenantal relationship, not a forced arrangement.

what a hopeless bunch of dogmas ,, I really don't have much patience left to continue with this continual misunderstandings and misrepresentations of my view , yours is the faith of Simon Magus , all depends upon you and YOUR performance , regeneration is OBVIOUSLY inconsequential to Salvation and sanctification in your exposed view.

That which is born of God ... does not sin ; Overcomes the WORLD and is victorious , due to your baptismal regeneration heresy which must involve hundreds of thousands of "DEAD - Regenerates" , no wonder you have a Gospel of works , it is man centred to its core . When you see folks you assume are YOUR brethren (born into Orthodox Church) and their lives are anything but holy no wonder you have a doctrine almost the same as the Arminian , bad experience breads bad doctrine.No matter how safe you may feel hiding behind Church Fathers who diverged on many opinions , as does the Orthodox church to this day , Liberals and conservatives within your church!

I am done with you RT , from here on I will not address your posts seeing as I am not called to wrangle over EVERY single doctrine. all to no avail.

so long RT.

 

[Rightglory]

Jesusfreak5000,

Our discussion is too broad. Nothing will be accomplished in such a conversation. If you wish to continue, then we ought to pick just one thing we are discussing. I am not about to waste hours posting back and forth over 20 topics, in which we misunderstand and gloss over each other's points.

There is ONLY one topic, it is salvation, the salvation of our souls to be very specific. Speak for yourself. I do not misunderstand your view. Nor have I glossed over your view or comments. They just do not align with scripture, scripture that has been believed and practiced as Christianity since the time of Christ. You have not given any evidence that what you are saying has ever seen the light of day as part of the understanding of Christianity, historic Christianity. The Gospel that has been preserved in time from the beginning.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by heymikey80:
If you want to ask Paul that, be my guest. It's what Paul said, Ben.

Don't be surprised if you get an amazingly Reformed answer to that question, though.​

We'll never get a "Reformed answer" from Paul. 1Cor9:25-27 is sufficient to completely ruin "Reformed Theology". Especially when connected (by the word "adokimos") with 2Cor13:5...

Quote:
Apparently you've never changed employment, because obviously Jesus is telling you you can't ...​

Huh??? Ya' lost me.

Quote:
As Paul said, "A Jew is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit" Rom 2:29​

Lost me again. Obedience is from our hearts; with the HEART man believes, resulting in righteousness; and with the mouth he confesses resulting in salvation. Rom10:9-10.

Jesus is the source of salvation to all WHO obey Him. Heb5:9. What does Heb4:11 say about our ability for obedience? "Let us therefore be diligent to enter God's rest, lest anyone FALL by imitating the same example (Israelites) of disobedience." Impossible to deny, isn't it?

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Heymikey80:
Nope.

So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live. Rom 8:12-13

Where's Paul say you have no deeds of the flesh to put to death?​

No no no --- if WE live by the lusts of the flesh, WE must die. Any way that cannot mean "eternally"?

...or would you have a "lust-living" man, stroll through the gates of Heaven?

Quote:
The Christian's present condition is there.

Counterquestion: why would Paul be arguing this if everyone automatically did it? Just to make it clear? Why need clarity when you have reality?​

Why would Paul be saying "if YOU do , YOU must die" --- if that didn't mean "eternally"?

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It has always sounded to me like you're snagged on demanding that a wilful choice is a free one. This one's no different.​

You didn't answer what I said. By saying "stop submitting yourselves as instruments of sin", the only thing he could mean is "turn back to Jesus and eternal life".

Unless (again), you would have a "submitted-to-sin man strolling through the gates of Heaven"...

Quote:
Nice attempt to hijack, though. The issue is whether there's any change to make in a Christian. Without a sinful bone in our body, there's no argument. There would be no wilful choice, Ben. Suddenly you find yourself with the disadvantage of fatalism.​

That's the point --- "Predestination", aligns with "fatalism"; all has been decided by God.

We have a choice --- see how Paul words it in Col2:6-8 --- walk in Christ, and guard against deception away from Him. There's no way that is not a serious warning...

Quote:
Try Predestination. It works much better than either.​

With respect, I'd rather try Scripture.

Quote:
You think someone can choose their nature, to be completely clean. Why did Jesus die?​

Apparently some Calvinists here think the "dedicated-wicked", can choose to "escape defilements" --- and through a SUPERFICIAL knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. How do you read 2Pet2:20-22? (Don't forget verse 18, were the false prophets, and the false teachers, try to entice the truly-escaped back into sensuality...

Quote:
Your presumption is one of incompetence. I'll let you figure out how you're going to explain that assertion to an omnipotent God.​

Don't have to. I understand that God does NOT regenerate anyone before faith. and that His regeneration can be rejected at any time. So many verses say that, and we've discussed several; Heb12:25 (see 7-9), Heb4:11, 1Tim4:16, 2Cor13:5 (see 1Cor9:25-27), 1Tim6:10 & 21, James1:14-16 & 5:19-20, 1Jn2:26-28, 2Jn1:7-9, Galatians 5:4 --- I could go on and on and on...

Quote:
God has reasons not to just glorify people instantly, or heal them instantly, or remove them instantly, or re-create the world instantly. Y'ever read this Bible thing to find out those reasons?​

So you perceive that there is a "walking-in-sin ELECT person", who is guaranteed to become righteous some time before he dies and will be escorted through the gates of Heaven --- it's a "given".

With respect, this is the most dangerous doctrine; and it began with the First Lie.

"You won't really die."

We won't die, if we CONTINUE in Jesus, and not be deceived away from Him. Constant "walk".

...our choice...

"KEEP yourselves in the love of God!"

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Cygnus:
was the crucifixion sinful ? yes or no.​

Did God CAUSE their sin? They wanted to kill Him because He called Himself "GOD" --- in John8:59, and John10:33.

Had they believed Moses, they would have understood He WAS God.

Cygnus, have you ever answered John10:38? How does "You can believe in Me just by looking at what I've done", accommodate "predestination"?

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Cygnus:
men choose according to their PREFERENCES , if men had no preferences "choice" would be indifferent , and wouldn't be choice but passivity ; so men are either divided into ;

a) Men who choose Christ because they prefer good .

b) Men who choose sin because they prefer evil.

Christ said men prefer sin , to light , they actually love darkness rather than light (John 3:19)​

No, He said those who DOES evil hates the light, but everyone who PRACTICES truth comes to the light. With respect, this is the "Scripture-twist" of which I'm accused.

Look again at Acts10:34-35 --- those WHO fear God and do right, are welcomed; the opposite of that (which would be God welcoming those who do NOT fear Him nor do right), is partiality --- and Peter said "God is not".

Quote:
If there are men created by God who love light rather than darkness then why are all men not created with this propensity ?

why the difference in creation ?

Truth is , either
1. Men are changed from a depraved nature by God ,
or
2. SOME Men are born with a depraved nature while others arn't.​

So God WELCOMES (sovereingly-elects) those who do NOT (yet) fear Him nor seek righteousness?

Peter was WRONG?

Quote:
so which is it ?​

It is as Jesus said, in John3:19-20. Those WHO...

It is as Jesus said in Matt7:24-27 --- he WHO hears AND ACTS (believes), is wise; he who hears and DOES NOT ACT (disbelieves), is foolish.

Quote:
either way it isn't down to your decision to be born with or without a fallen nature ; a wicked disposition that is at war with God , or on the contrary to be born desiring the light and loving God , which btw , describes someone Regenerate !​

So some are born without a fallen nature?

You don't see a problem with that?

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if men have been born , some good , some bad , how is that anything to do with human choice ? Folks it isn't!!!

either way taking the anti-Calvinist view , or the Biblical view , it all comes down to God's Sovereignty.​

And God, in His sovereignty, sent His only son, that whosoever believes may be saved. This is the will of God, that whoever beholds AND BELIEVES Jesus, may have eternal life.

 

[cygnusx1]

Quoted by Cygnus:
was the crucifixion sinful ? yes or no.​

Did God CAUSE their sin? They wanted to kill Him because He called Himself "GOD" --- in John8:59, and John10:33.

was the crucifixion sinful ? yes or no.

 

[Rightglory]

Cygnusx1,

what a hopeless bunch of dogmas ,, I really don't have much patience left to continue with this continual misunderstandings and misrepresentations of my view , yours is the faith of Simon Magus , all depends upon you and YOUR performance , regeneration is OBVIOUSLY inconsequential to Salvation and sanctification in your exposed view.

So far you have not shown they are misrepresentations of the Gospel. You stated earlier this is not about Calvinism, but scripture. So far, you seem only to present a Calvinistic interpretation rather than a scriptural one. Align your view with Scripture and it might not seem so distant and it surely won't be misrepresented.

It depends on man because that is why we were created. To be in union with God freely. There is nothing is scripture that changes that purpose. The purpose was lost due to the fall, but thanks be to God, Christ redeemed mankind from that fall, so that union and communion for an eternity might be a reality.

Regeneration is the beginning of Salvation. It is NOT salvation. We take possession, we enter into Christ. But it is the journey, the sanctifiying, the making holy, changing lives, changing character, being made into Christ's Likenesses. That takes synergy, working with God as we were meant to do, glorifying Him.

When one makes regeneration in to some form of concrete state of being in which man is but a tool, an object manipulated by God, it ceases to be the Gospel. When a simple mental ascent of faith, guarantees heaven and makes what man does in this life quite inconsequencial to the salvation of his soul, makes the Gospel null and void.

That which is born of God ... does not sin ; Overcomes the WORLD and is victorious , due to your baptismal regeneration heresy which must involve hundreds of thousands of "DEAD - Regenerates" , no wonder you have a Gospel of works , it is man centred to its core . When you see folks you assume are YOUR brethren (born into Orthodox Church) and their lives are anything but holy no wonder you have a doctrine almost the same as the Arminian , bad experience breads bad doctrine.No matter how safe you may feel hiding behind Church Fathers who diverged on many opinions , as does the Orthodox church to this day , Liberals and conservatives within your church!

no one ever stated that we are not sinners. The Church has had an number of heretics, in fact all of them have come from the ranks of the faithful. St Paul generally warned more of those from inside than outside. Those inside are much more insidious.

But what you have not shown is that the Church of Christ, the Church He founded has lapsed, has ceased to exist in this world from the beginning. You have not shown that the Gospel has ceased, that it was changed from the beginning. Name one doctrine of salvation that has ever changed from the beginning? Is there historical evidence that whatever you think is a change is in fact a change and you can document it? You have 2000 years of evidence, can you come up with even one?

Revelation is for man, not God. It is of necessity all about the relationship of God with man. Man plays a very central role in that relationship. We were created for a purpose and to understand fully that purpose is essential.

When you cannot show evidence you cower away. Typical. If you want to discuss only Calvinism you should stay in a Calvinist forum, not a Christian one where you must meet the demands of Scripture. The Gospel as it has always been understood, believed and practiced because it is being preserved by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Jesusfreak5000,

There is ONLY one topic, it is salvation, the salvation of our souls to be very specific. Speak for yourself. I do not misunderstand your view. Nor have I glossed over your view or comments. They just do not align with scripture, scripture that has been believed and practiced as Christianity since the time of Christ. You have not given any evidence that what you are saying has ever seen the light of day as part of the understanding of Christianity, historic Christianity. The Gospel that has been preserved in time from the beginning.

To say "let's discuss salvation" would cause nothing but long, broad, indirect posts, where each of us have different intentions. That's what you're trying to do; discuss the whole of salvation in one post, when we basically disagree on everything soteriologically. There is no purpose in discussing in such an unorganized fashion.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Question --- is salvation "being indwelt by Jesus and the Spirit"?
(Yes.)

That's part of it.

Question --- does Jesus participate in sin?
(No.)

Question --- when we sin, do we by definition turn away from God?
(Yes.)

Yes. However, God does not turn away from us when we sin, because judicially, we are seen as righteous. While their may be a partial relational break between us, it is always restored. There is a difference though, between God's judicial view of us and God's relationship with us.

Question --- if we can WALK in sin, would that be identical to "unbelief"?
(Yes.)

"Walking in sin" denotes the idea of practicing sin without any sort of struggle, and sort of battle between the spirit and the flesh. It is to simply "practice sin". No believer does this Ben-

1Jo 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

In Heb12 is a wonderful discussion about submitting to God's discipline, including what happens to us if we refuse His discipline --- we will be "illegitimate and not sons". verse 25 is undeniable: "Much less shall WE escape who turn away from God".

You are assuming "we" means "us christians". However it is obvious from the context that "we" is "us Jews".

See if you can deny anything that's been said in this post; first my parenthetical answers, then Heb12 --- and see if you can deny what's happening in Heb10:26-29.

Wow you like to take things out of context.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

You're seeing this from the wrong direction --- the Spirit is not "taken away from us'; we voluntarily throw Him away.

Tell me how we "throw the Spirit away", when we had no part in ever receiving Him. We do not merit the Spirit; the disciples didn't merit Him coming and we do not individually merit His indwelling in us. If this be the case, then we cannot possibly "demerit" his indwelling.

Further, the term used for "pledge" in Ephesians is ἀρραβὼν, meaning an earnest. It was a market term, which meant simply "a down payment", confirming that the rest would in fact be paid in full. It doesn't matter what I do with the down payment; the payment is coming, in full. It isn't us who earns the payment; the pledge shows that we already have it. That's the point Paul is making. Your view of us "throwing away the Spirit" does not account for this and simply cannot account for this.

In Heb10:29, the Spirit can be insulted. (And 10:35 "do not thrown away your confidence", only means "do not throw away Jesus".) In Eph4:30, the Spirit can be grieved.

There is a difference between the Spirit being "grieved" and being "thrown away". Explain how this supports us "losing the Spirit".

While passages like Rom11:29 assert that GOD will not revoke our gifts and calling, WE have the choice by diligence (or not) in regard to FORFEITING our calling and election.

How do we forfeit a completed action (in the aorist tense), as stated in Rom 8:29-30, in which we are those who are said to be justified (you and I) are said to already be positionally glorified?

That's the only thing 2Pet1:5-10 can mean, JF.

for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;

Who practices those things?

1Jo 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

Those who are His keep His commandments; this is what they do. How does one who is His suddenly not keep His commandments? According to this verse, they can't. All they can do is continue in obedience. Therefore, one who is His cannot cease to abide in Him. It is simple logic.

 

[Rightglory]

Jesusfreak5000,

Tell me how we "throw the Spirit away", when we had no part in ever receiving Him. We do not merit the Spirit; the disciples didn't merit Him coming and we do not individually merit His indwelling in us. If this be the case, then we cannot possibly "demerit" his indwelling.

whenb we sin, when we do not confess those sins, when we become lax, become hardened by sin, we have lost faith, thus have evicted the Holy Spirit.
WE chose Christ. It is in believing that we recieved the Holy Spirit. It has to do with relationship, not merit. Merit has no place in the relationship.

Further, the term used for "pledge" in Ephesians is ???aß??, meaning an earnest. It was a market term, which meant simply "a down payment", confirming that the rest would in fact be paid in full. It doesn't matter what I do with the down payment; the payment is coming, in full. It isn't us who earns the payment; the pledge shows that we already have it. That's the point Paul is making. Your view of us "throwing away the Spirit" does not account for this and simply cannot account for this.

the rest will be paid IF you keep the payment of your faith in the present. If you fail to have faith, if you do not repent, then you will NOT gain the promise, the inheritance at the end. I Pet 1:3-5. the whole NT accounts for it.

How do we forfeit a completed action (in the aorist tense), as stated in Rom 8:29-30, in which we are those who are said to be justified (you and I) are said to already be positionally glorified?

If you enter a room, it is past tense. It is a completed event. If one enters into Christ, it is completed. But one can also leave. Justification by faith is entering into a relationship with Christ. A mutual relationship that has conditions and obligations. That is the logic of it.

Those who are His keep His commandments; this is what they do. How does one who is His suddenly not keep His commandments? According to this verse, they can't. All they can do is continue in obedience. Therefore, one who is His cannot cease to abide in Him. It is simple logic.

According to the verse it is definitely possible or else the verse has absolutely no meaning whatsoever. Then we have reality. Just look around you. I have seen people walking away from Christ purposely and by just plain rationalizing away sin, so that it seems to them that they are not sinning.

 

[nobdysfool]

Isn't it odd that RightGlory inserts himself into every conversation, even those which aren't directed to him? He answers posts directed at other people, and it appears that he is attempting to take over this thread. All I see is confusion.