"Fatal Flaw" in predestinary theory

[expos4ever]

If you want to play word games with me, and play the offended party every time I try to examine your pronouncements, we're done. I simply won't waste my time playing that game. You have derailed this thread for long enough. Start your own thread to pursue this.

I will contine to participate in this thread, subject of course to the rulings or direction of the moderators.

I see no evidence that I have engaged in any more meandering from the topic than others have. If I have not mistaken, each one of my posts directly engages and responds to what others have written.

Quite frankly, you have tried to promote a view which is not orthodox, and doesn't add up.

If the content of my view is incorrect, I am more than happy to discuss any objections.

You apparently have an inability to clearly state what you believe, and get defensive when what you have said is examined. You keep moving the target. That is not conducive to clear discussion.

I have been as clear as I can. You are being, as you were before, dismissive and condescending. Examples:

"I would suggest that you should study this issue a little more,....
This is a patronizing remark. "

"Meaning no disrespect, but this is metaphysical mumbo-jumbo."

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by drsteve:
Simultaneous. Meditate on that word.​

Then perhaps the question is "whose decision is 'repentance' --- men's, or God's?

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by NBF:
Repentance is followed immediately by the imputation of righteousness. So repentance precedes imputation.​

Well, you're not Cygnus, but perhaps your answers parallel his...

I agree --- Jesus said, "Unless you repent, you will perish."

Quote:
How many sins of your sins did Jesus die for? When you receive Christ, you receive what He did. That includes forgiveness for all of your sins.​

If repentance is a choice, then sins are forgiven after repentance. If repentance is God's choice, then why do we still sin at all?

Quote:
This does not follow from the first half of your question. God grants repentance, and responds to our repentance, so the answer is "both". And there is scripture to back that up.​

How can God GRANT repentance (thus it flows from "God towards man"), and at the same time RESPONDS to repentance (thus repentance flows from "man towards God")?

It can't be both...

 

[drstevej]

Quoted by drsteve:
Simultaneous. Meditate on that word.​

Then perhaps the question is "whose decision is 'repentance' --- men's, or God's?

Ben, have you ever prayed that God would bring someone you know to repentance? I have. Your theology makes this a impossible request.

 

[nobdysfool]

Posted by NBF:
Repentance is followed immediately by the imputation of righteousness. So repentance precedes imputation.​

Well, you're not Cygnus, but perhaps your answers parallel his...

I agree --- Jesus said, "Unless you repent, you will perish."

A statement of raw fact. it does not address the ability of the hearer to repent. True repentance goes beyond what man himself can do, especially in an unregenerate state.

Posted by NBF:
How many sins of your sins did Jesus die for? When you receive Christ, you receive what He did. That includes forgiveness for all of your sins.​

If repentance is a choice, then sins are forgiven after repentance. If repentance is God's choice, then why do we still sin at all?

You dodged the question I asked. How many of your sins did Jesus die for? Any answer other than "all of them" leaves you in an unsaved state, because you have sinned since you were initially saved. Your theology unavoidably must say that every time you sin, you have lost salvation until such time as you repent, and received forgiveness, at which time you are saved again.

Trying to frame repentance as simply a choice, does violence to the scriptures. Framing it as "God's choice" is a straw man, because Calvinism does not state such an idea. And, the question of repentance and why Christians still sin is a non-sequitor. The one does not affect the other, or cause the other.

The reason why Christians still struggle with sin is that we are new men living in the old man's body. Paul makes that plain. The benefit that the christian has vis-a-vis sin is that Jesus has already paid the penalty for those sins, on Calvary. When we repent of a sin as a Christian, we are answering for conscience' sake, because that sin has already been forgiven. We repent to put our conscience back in line with our new life, which reminds us of what Christ has done, and how totally we must rely on Him. Christians live in a state of Grace before God.

Repentance serves a different function in a believer than it does in the unbeliever. All repentance is an act of humility. For the unbeliever, repentance is in order to receive forgiveness, for the Christian it is in order to affirm the forgiveness we have already received.

Posted by NBF:
This does not follow from the first half of your question. God grants repentance, and responds to our repentance, so the answer is "both". And there is scripture to back that up.​

How can God GRANT repentance (thus it flows from "God towards man"), and at the same time RESPONDS to repentance (thus repentance flows from "man towards God")?

It can't be both...

What do the scriptures say?

Act 5:31 God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

Act 11:18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life."

Rom 2:4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?

2Co 7:9-10 As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting. For you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us. (10) For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.

2Ti 2:24-25 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, (25) correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,

Heb 12:15-17 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no "root of bitterness" springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; (16) that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. (17) For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

​

Scripture clearly shows that repentance is granted by God, and we know that God receives and answers the repentance He gives. Look at Esau. He sought to repent with tears. If it were merely his choice, what was his problem? Clearly, there is more to repentance than merely choosing to repent. Paul makes the distinction between godly repentance, and worldly repentance. There is more to repentance than mere choice.

So it is clearly established that it is indeed both, as I have said. You want scripture, you got it. Now, admit that you erred in saying "it can't be both".

 

[Rightglory]

Nobdysfool,

You dodged the question I asked. How many of your sins did Jesus die for? Any answer other than "all of them" leaves you in an unsaved state, because you have sinned since you were initially saved. Your theology unavoidably must say that every time you sin, you have lost salvation until such time as you repent, and received forgiveness, at which time you are saved again.

What text or context puts forth the idea that a believer is forgiven all sins, past, present and future upon a single mental ascent of faith?

Trying to frame repentance as purely a choice, does violence to the scriptures. Framing it as "God's choice" is a straw man, because Calvinism does not state such an idea. And, the question of repentance and why Christians still sin is a non-sequitor. The one does not affect the other, or cause the other.

Why would it do violence to scripture when that is precisely what scripture states. God grants it but it is NEVER granted unless one actually seeks that forgiveness. Man must repent, it is a volitional act of man. It is what makes man responsible for his sins, rather than God.

The reason why Christians still struggle with sin is that we are new men living in the old man's body. Paul makes that plain. the benefit that the christian has vis-a-vis sin is that Jesus has already paid the penalty for those sins, on Calvary. When we repent of a sin as a Christian, we are answering for conscience' sake, because that sin has already been forgiven. We repent to put our conscience back in line with our new life, which reminds us of what Christ has done, and how totally we must rely on Him.

We struggle because we have been freed from the bondage to sin and now we, man, believers are responsible for our sins. We are influenced by the flesh (Satan) and the Spirit and man's will must decide which way to go.
Where in the Bible does it ever say we are assuaging our consciences by seeking forgiveness?

Asking forgiveness of sins, puts us back in proper standing with Christ, called reconciled to Christ. If we sin, and we do not seek forgiveness, those sins are retained by that person. They can convict you, unless one repents. Man is asked to reform himself, that is to work with the Holy Spirit to transform ourselves, to conform to Christ. This means sinning less, and less and less and when we do still sin, we must seek forgiveness of those sins.

According to Paul, when you sin, you are denying your faith.
1 Timothy 5
If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

God grants clemency or amnesty for the past (Rom. 3:25, 2 Pet. 1:9 , but He never grants immunity or impunity for the future (Matt. 18:25-35; Rom. 2:9; 8:13; Heb. 10:26-31 . His laws are good, they must be obeyed. God gives no license for future rebellion or deliberate disobedience (Rom. 6:1-2 Heb. 10:26-31 ; Jude 1:4
If a Christian sins (1 Jn. 2:1 they must repent (Lk. 13:3 , James 5:19-20 and seek forgiveness (Matt. 6:12; 1 Jn. 1:9 and they can be restored (Ps. 51:9 ; Jer. 3:22 ; Jer. 4:1; Lk. 15:20; Lk. 22:32 ; Rom. 11:23 ; James 5:19-20.

The theological problem you cannot surmount is that there is no such thing as Limited Atonement. Christ atoned for, propitiated the sins of the world. It does NOT mean forgiveness.

 

[cygnusx1]

none believers do not struggle with sin , the Christian knows inner warfare Flesh against Spirit , this is not possible for the unregenerate who sin and enjoy sinning.

 

[cygnusx1]

Quoted by drsteve:
Simultaneous. Meditate on that word.​

Then perhaps the question is "whose decision is 'repentance' --- men's, or God's?

badly worded question , the responsibility to repent is man's , the GIFT of Repentance is God's .

btw , there is a repentance that is from man which cannot save , just as there is a faith from man which cannot save.Thus it is not enough to have "faith" or "repentance" only the REAL God given gift/s brings salvation.

who's decision is your next breath ben ?

 

[MamaZ]

Unsaved men live to sin. They even plot it out sometimes before they follow through with it. Premeditated.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by drsteve:
Ben, have you ever prayed that God would bring someone you know to repentance? I have. Your theology makes this a impossible request.​

Of course; but you and I understand "BRING", differently. In the parable of Matt22:2-14, not one person is mentioned as "uninvited"; the "invitation" is the "bringing" --- each makes a choice to receive the righteous clothing, or not.

"Put-on-righteous-clothing", can only reflect "repentance/forgiveness", by Jesus' blood...

"If we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by NBF:
A statement of raw fact. it does not address the ability of the hearer to repent.​

I shall never understand the perception of God commanding repentance, from those who are incapable of it.

QUote:
True repentance goes beyond what man himself can do, especially in an unregenerate state.​

Can you please show me the Scripture that suggests "unrepentant men cannot repent"?

Quote:
You dodged the question I asked. How many of your sins did Jesus die for?​

All of them, of course. But we're back to the premise of this thread --- why do I, a "saved believer", still sin?

Am I "repentant", WHILE I am sinning?

Quote:
Your theology unavoidably must say that every time you sin, you have lost salvation until such time as you repent, and received forgiveness, at which time you are saved again.​

Every time I sin, I potentially lose salvation; it all depends on what I do next. Do I repent, or do I sin again? Note that sin reflects the "state of heart" --- if I sin again, then I am walking in sin --- and my heart cannot be indwelt by the Spirit and by Christ.

This is the problem --- as Paul eloquently says in Rom8, we are "under obligation not to walk after the flesh; if we do we must die. But if by the Spirit we are putting to death the deeds of the flesh, we will live."

Obligation. Responsibility. Choice.

Quote:
Trying to frame repentance as simply a choice, does violence to the scriptures.​

Show me where?

Quote:
Framing it as "God's choice" is a straw man, because Calvinism does not state such an idea. And, the question of repentance and why Christians still sin is a non-sequitor. The one does not affect the other, or cause the other.​

Do you or do you not understand 2Tim2:25 as asserting "God sovereignly grants repentance to a few"?

Quote:
The reason why Christians still struggle with sin is that we are new men living in the old man's body. Paul makes that plain. The benefit that the Christian has vis-a-vis sin is that Jesus has already paid the penalty for those sins, on Calvary.​

By perceiving "repentance" as a given, you miss the peril that sin presents.
In 1Cor10:12, we can fall; I think you misperceive this as "lose a few crowns".
In Heb10:26, WE can continue in sins, and Jesus' sacrifice will no longer cover us; we would expect fire that consumes the adversaries. I don't remember how you perceive that verse; perhaps "non-possible hyperbole"?

Quote:
When we repent of a sin as a Christian, we are answering for conscience' sake, because that sin has already been forgiven.​

Really. How do you read:
"If we CONFESS our sins, He is faithful and just to FORGIVE our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1Jn1:9)...

...and make it into "you're already forgiven"?

Quote:
We repent to put our conscience back in line with our new life, which reminds us of what Christ has done, and how totally we must rely on Him. Christians live in a state of Grace before God.​

We walk in grace; you and I disagree that "walking is a choice".
"As you have received Christ, so walk in Him." That Col2:6-8 passage then continues with a warning not to be deceived away from Christ...

Quote:
Repentance serves a different function in a believer than it does in the unbeliever. All repentance is an act of humility. For the unbeliever, repentance is in order to receive forgiveness, for the Christian it is in order to affirm the forgiveness we have already received.​

Can you support that with Scripture? Do you think 1Jn1:9 is only speaking of INITIAL SALVATION?

Quote:
Act 5:31 God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.​

Did "all Isreal" repent? No.

Quote:
Act 11:18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life."​

Did all Gentiles repent? No.

Quote:
Rom 2:4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?​

Seems a very bad (to your cause) verse to quote; if God MEANT to lead to repentance, those who were stubbornly UN-repentant, what was wrong with God???

Quote:
2Co 7:9-10 As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting. For you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us. (10) For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.​

Another verse "bad for your cause". If sorrow can lead to repentance, then it's not "God-granted".

Quote:
2Ti 2:24-25 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, (25) correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,​

"Grant" is "give to one asking". While you're in 2Tim, there is also 3:15. Paul forgot to mention "predestination"...

Quote:
Heb 12:15-17 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no "root of bitterness" springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; (16) that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. (17) For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.​

In the second place, Esau's "birthright", is different from our salvation. In the first place, how do you deal with verse 25? You're missing the theme of the chapter; submitting to God's discipline is a choice; if WE do not submit, then we are not sons but illegitimate. "SHALL we not much rather BE subject to (the discipline of) the Father of spirits, AND LIVE?"

Can you make a case for "and-live", not meaning "salvation"?

Quote:
Scripture clearly shows that repentance is granted by God, and we know that God receives and answers the repentance He gives. Look at Esau. He sought to repent with tears. If it were merely his choice, what was his problem? Clearly, there is more to repentance than merely choosing to repent. Paul makes the distinction between godly repentance, and worldly repentance. There is more to repentance than mere choice.​

And each point made, has been responded. I look forward to your answers..

 

[Ben johnson]

Quote:
non-believers do not struggle with sin , the Christian knows inner warfare Flesh against Spirit , this is not possible for the unregenerate who sin and enjoy sinning.​

How do you understand Rom8:12-14?

If the "false prophets" and "false teachers" of 2Pet2 "never cease from sin", then who is it that escapes defilements (and through the epignosis-knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus)?

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Cygnus:
badly worded question , the responsibility to repent is man's , the GIFT of Repentance is God's .​

Then you do not understand the word, "responsible". Per Webster's, "accountable as being the cause".

Quote:
btw , there is a repentance that is from man which cannot save , just as there is a faith from man which cannot save.Thus it is not enough to have "faith" or "repentance" only the REAL God given gift/s brings salvation.​

Please show me in Scripture where is the "repentance that does not coexist with salvation".

Quote:
who's decision is your next breath ben ?​

Apples and oranges; autonomic systems are not in the same ballpark as conscience. (See Acts2:27...)

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by MamaZ:
Unsaved men live to sin. They even plot it out sometimes before they follow through with it. Premeditated.​

And we're right back to the "fatal flaw".

If unregenerated men can ONLY sin, and regenerated men can ONLY follow God (because each does according to his nature) --- then why do we sin at all?

Grace is resistible, isn't it?

 

[nobdysfool]

Quoted by MamaZ:
Unsaved men live to sin. They even plot it out sometimes before they follow through with it. Premeditated.​

And we're right back to the "fatal flaw".

If unregenerated men can ONLY sin, and regenerated men can ONLY follow God (because each does according to his nature) --- then why do we sin at all?

Grace is resistible, isn't it?

Why is it so important to you that Grace be resistible? Why do you spend more time talking about how someone can supposedly lose their salvation, rather than talking about how to walk more closely with God? Why is your theology so negative?

The truth of the matter is, Grace brings us to the place where we CAN choose. Apart from Grace, no man will choose to follow Christ, or obey God. As we've told you many times, it is not that man can't, but apart from Grace, he won't. But you never seem to hear that.

No Calvinist has EVER said that the regenerate can only follow God. That is a straw man you have invented to support your theory. You clearly do not understand Calvinism, so you continue to make these false charges, made-up straw men, and avoid answering the tough questions.

Sorry, Ben, but you clearly are not truly listening.

 

[cygnusx1]

Quote:
btw , there is a repentance that is from man which cannot save , just as there is a faith from man which cannot save.Thus it is not enough to have "faith" or "repentance" only the REAL God given gift/s brings salvation.​

Please show me in Scripture where is the "repentance that does not coexist with salvation".

There are three kinds of repentance spoken of in Scripture. First, that of desperation: Esau, Pharaoh, Ahithophel, and Judas are illustrations. Second, that of reformation: Ahab's and that which was brought about under the preaching of Jonah, are illustrations. Third, that which is unto salvation: Acts 11:18; II Corinthians 7:10. It is most important that we learn to discriminate between legal conviction and evangelical repentance. Multitudes are deceived at this point: they suppose that because they have been terrified through contemplating the wrath to come and have abandoned many of their evil ways, they have repented. This by no means follows. A legal conviction fears hell, evangelical repentance reveres God: the one dreads punishment,the other hates sin;the one informs the mind, the other melts the heart. Evangelical repentance makes no excuses and has no reserves, but cries, “I have dishonored Thy name, grieved Thy Spirit, abused Thy patience.” A W Pink

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by NBF:
Why is it so important to you that Grace be resistible?​

It's not important to me --- it's important to Scripture. "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, are always resisting the Holy Spirit..." Acts7:51

Quote:
Why do you spend more time talking about how someone can supposedly lose their salvation, rather than talking about how to walk more closely with God? Why is your theology so negative?​

Uhm, "closer to God" is what I teach. It is how we "do not fall".

Most of Scripture is on spiritual maturity and growth. I heard that nearly 98% of people who "come forward" at "revivals", later turn away from God altogether.

We are failing our brothers.

Quote:
The truth of the matter is, Grace brings us to the place where we CAN choose.​

"Can"? What does the "I" mean, in TULIP?

Quote:
Apart from Grace, no man will choose to follow Christ, or obey God. As we've told you many times, it is not that man can't, but apart from Grace, he won't.​

What about Cornelius? What about Lydia?

Quote:
But you never seem to hear that.​

I'm hearing that "men always do according to their natures; if unregenerated, always sin --- if regenerated, always choose to follow Christ".

...and I opened a thread asking "If we always follow our nature, and if God sovereignly/monergistically regenerates us (and gives us a new spiritual nature), then how do we go against that nature and sin?

We sin; that nature is resistible. Either God is inept in His sovereignty, or men can make the choice for belief or unbelief.

Rom11:21-23 is one passage of many that very clearly asserts "unbelievers can become believers, and believers can become unbelievers".

Quote:
No Calvinist has EVER said that the regenerate can only follow God.​

Then you're left in a "quandry"; if regenerate can choose NOT to follow God, then we have "sinningly-saved".

You contradict your position --- if men "follow the greatest desire of their hearts", and if that desire follows God's regeneration OR their depravity if He chooses NOT to give regeneration, then "predestined-elect" always follow their greatest desire to believe.

...leaving no option for "believers", to be cut off.
We still have Rom11:21-23.
"Do not be conceited but fear; if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. Behold then the kindness and severity of God --- to those who fell, severity; but for you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness else you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in again."

Quote:
That is a straw man you have invented to support your theory. You clearly do not understand Calvinism, so you continue to make these false charges, made-up straw men, and avoid answering the tough questions.​

I think I understand it well, and I'm answering the "unavoidable conclusion of your proposal".

Grace is irresistible to the sovereignly-regenerated in your doctrine; that means men (by virtue of their sovereignly-given new natures) cannot choose else.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Cygnus:
First, that of desperation: Esau,​

Esau repented of throwing away his birthright.

Quote:
Pharaoh ​

Pharaoh repented and became a believer/follower of God?

Quote:
Ahithophel,​

He hanged himself; I don't see any repentance.

Quote:
and Judas are illustrations.​

In Jn6:67-70, Jesus is clearly telling the Disciples "Yes, you CAN leave". Because He said: "I chose all TWELVE of you, and ONE of you is a devil". Per Jn15:16, Jesus chose the Disciples and ordained they would bear fruit, and that fruit would remain.

Explain how Judas wasn't "ordained to bear fruit"...

Quote:
Second, that of reformation: Ahab's and that which was brought about under the preaching of Jonah, are illustrations. Third, that which is unto salvation: Acts 11:18; II Corinthians 7:10. It is most important that we learn to discriminate between legal conviction and evangelical repentance. Multitudes are deceived at this point: they suppose that because they have been terrified through contemplating the wrath to come and have abandoned many of their evil ways, they have repented.​

And sorrow can lead to repentance --- 2Cor7:10.

QUote:
This by no means follows. A legal conviction fears hell, evangelical repentance reveres God: the one dreads punishment,the other hates sin;the one informs the mind, the other melts the heart. Evangelical repentance makes no excuses and has no reserves, but cries, “I have dishonored Thy name, grieved Thy Spirit, abused Thy patience.” A W Pink​

I love to read Pink. He's easy to refute with Scripture.

But you have yet to support the position that "repentance is not fully men's decision", and/or that "God honors/receives men's repentance" (rather than causes it)...

 

[AndOne]

I Corinthians 1:30

It is because of Him (God) that you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God - that is our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

I would highly recommend a perusal of 1 Corinthians 1:18 all the way through to the end of Chapter 2 of the same book. It absolutely puts to rest this whole "fatal flaw" theory stuff. Actually better than any Calvinist here can.

It will take a great twisting of scripture to refute what is said there in regards to predestination and the gift of faith which comes from the Spirit.

 

[cygnusx1]

Quoted by Cygnus:
First, that of desperation: Esau,
​

Esau repented of throwing away his birthright.

Quote:
Pharaoh
​

Pharaoh repented and became a believer/follower of God?

Quote:
Ahithophel,
​

He hanged himself; I don't see any repentance.

Quote:
and Judas are illustrations.
​

In Jn6:67-70, Jesus is clearly telling the Disciples "Yes, you CAN leave". Because He said: "I chose all TWELVE of you, and ONE of you is a devil". Per Jn15:16, Jesus chose the Disciples and ordained they would bear fruit, and that fruit would remain.

Explain how Judas wasn't "ordained to bear fruit"...

Quote:
Second, that of reformation: Ahab's and that which was brought about under the preaching of Jonah, are illustrations. Third, that which is unto salvation: Acts 11:18; II Corinthians 7:10. It is most important that we learn to discriminate between legal conviction and evangelical repentance. Multitudes are deceived at this point: they suppose that because they have been terrified through contemplating the wrath to come and have abandoned many of their evil ways, they have repented.
​

And sorrow can lead to repentance --- 2Cor7:10.

QUote:
This by no means follows. A legal conviction fears hell, evangelical repentance reveres God: the one dreads punishment,the other hates sin;the one informs the mind, the other melts the heart. Evangelical repentance makes no excuses and has no reserves, but cries, “I have dishonored Thy name, grieved Thy Spirit, abused Thy patience.” A W Pink
​

I love to read Pink. He's easy to refute with Scripture.

But you have yet to support the position that "repentance is not fully men's decision", and/or that "God honors/receives men's repentance" (rather than causes it)...

what a mockery of an answer !

you asked for a repentance that doesn't bring salvation , you got the answer. and what do you do with the answer ? burn rabit trails ! and waffle on making no sense at all.

and as for you dig at Pink ( a man devoted to the study of scripture for most of his life) such arrogance is ungodly and is YOUR flesh talking.How do I know ? because it stinks of pride and death.

ben repent!

Repentance is God's gift , why you should deny it speaks more about you than God's precious gift. You have some serious issues with God's generosity.