Fallacies of Preterism

[KJV1611Warrior]

The scripture placed the gap. Like it or not, the present time we live in is after 69 weeks yet prior to the 70th week. Messiah was cut off (Calvary), the people of the prince who SHALL come (future) but hasn't yet, destroyed the city and sanctuary (Roman legions in 70 A.D.). The prince who shall come in the 70th week hasn't come yet.

 

[KJV1611Warrior]

The gap is filled with the church age, the first fruits of the New Covenant!

 

[ebedmelech]

The gap is filled with the church age, the first fruits of the New Covenant!

Scripture?

 

[KJV1611Warrior]

The seven Church ages

The messages to the seven churches were to seven actual historic churches that existed in John's time. They were not the most prominent churches but they were picked because God has a message to give to all the believers who will ever live during the Church age. We see here in these letters that He is working with His Church until the end of the Church age. The entire Church age is from the time of the giving of the promise of a new Covenant at Pentecost until she unites with Jesus in heaven.

There are seven periods within this age. The first three periods in Revelation have been fulfilled historically. We know this because each of the first three were replaced by a successor and there is no mention of the Lord's coming in the first three.

Ephesus - the Apostolic Church - until the death of John 32 - 100 AD
Smyrna - The martyred Church - until Christianity became the religion of the Roman Empire - 100 - 312 AD.
Pergamum - - The Church that joined the state - until the Papacy - 312 - 600 AD (approx.)

The messages to all seven churches are still valid to all who live on the earth today but only the last four letters deal with the historic assemblies that are still dwelling on earth until Jesus returns for them.

To avoid confusion, it is essential to understand that the letter was addressed to seven assemblies in existence at the time of John. Not all people in any of the original assemblies were truly Christian. The message content from Jesus to the seven churches should makes this clear as does the New Testament epistles to the churches. If there is a prophetic application with the Church through time as I believe, it also is critical to understand that the message from Jesus to the last four assemblies is to true believers and traditional cultural Christians alike. Just like their were believing descendants of Israel and unbelieving descendants of Israel. The letters in Revelation to the Churches are to all who identify with these Christian assemblies and not just to the true believers within them.

The last four remaining churches on earth:

Thyatira is the Roman Catholic Church and the eastern Orthodox Churches. At the end, this assembly will be tried by death. The passage seems to imply that most in this assembly are cast into great tribulation and that the descendants of this Church are killed in the tribulation. This Church has good works but most were in adultery with mystery Babylon.

Sardis is the Churches of the reformation that have become spiritually dead. They are the liberal and ritualistic churches that have no good works. This includes many main line Protestant denomination churches in the world today, and certainly includes most of the state churches of Europe. God says they will not know the time of his coming and that they will not be ready when He comes. They will go through great tribulation.

Philadelphia, like Enoch, was pleasing to God. This assembly has an open door (world evangelism) that no one can shut (not even Satan). She has some power (God's Spirit), she kept the word (the Bible) and does not deny the name of Jesus. This Church also kept the word of His patience (Jesus coming for the Church) and because of this she, like Enoch, will be removed from the earth before the judgment on earth (great tribulation).

Laodicea is the wealthy Protestant (non denominational) churches of today that are self-centered country clubs. It could also be those that "say" they are rich in spirit but are full of dead works. She is spit out of Jesus' mouth and becomes identified with the harlot of Revelation. She is rich in material goods but she is poor spiritually. God is outside looking in (no indwelling spirit). This assembly will be chastened in the tribulation but those individuals that seek Jesus will find Him. This group probably includes most "possibility thinking" and "Word of Faith" churches. It certainly includes some "seeker friendly" churches that have watered down Christian doctrine and worship to make it appealing to the world It would also include the emerging and emergent church movement that redefines essentials truths of Christianity. It may also include some charismatics who think they are rich spiritually but have gone off into new age theology and doctrine of demons. It could even possibly include some cults that are in great heresy but who do not deny that Jesus is Lord.

Proofs for the pretribulation rapture

 

[ebedmelech]

No...that won't work. John writes to 7 existing churches...in NO WAY does he even hint these are "church ages"...this is a creation introduced by John Nelson Darby who was a member of the Plymouth Brethren.

I'll let John tell you what Jesus told him:
Rev 1:
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,
11 saying, “Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”

Where is it said these are "church ages"?

It doesn't fly that they are "church ages" because you can go across this country and find different churches that are in the state these churches are in.

There's nothing in scripture you can base it on.

 

[KJV1611Warrior]

Simple fact: The "prince" has not yet come. Another fact: The "prince" is the Antichrist. Yet another fact: The "prince" doesn't come until the 70th week which is synonymous with the "tribulation". The tribulation hasn't happened yet which means it is yet future. John 14 is all about the rapture and paints a beautiful picture of our LORD betrothed to His Bride. He will come back for us, THE CHURCH.

The ancient Jewish marriage ceremony proclaims a pretribulation rapture picture.

The groom goes to the bride's house and is betrothed to the bride (the faithful on the earth)
He pays the purchase price (his blood)
He returns to his father to prepare a place for the bride ("I go to prepare a place for you")
Later the groom comes for the bride (rapture)
He takes her to his father's house and gives her gifts where she is adorned and prepared for the wedding (judgment seat of Christ where crowns are awarded)
The wedding then takes place before the father and the witnesses (in the father's house)
The groom appears with his bride (second coming in glory with his saints)
Then the wedding feast takes place (on earth with invited guests of the bride and groom)

Oh how exceeding wonderful our Great God and Saviour Jesus Christ is! You should read about our position as believers in Christ Jesus possessing His perfect righteousness. If you truly understood the portfolio of assets and riches that are bestowed upon us as His bride, His body, then you would understand why there is no purpose in having us, the body and Bride of Christ endure His wrath during the tribulation. Did not Jesus Christ already suffer in our stead? Did He not already purchase us with His own blood? Think about it.

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

We are His body, the fulness of Him! Think about that one!!! Revelation 12 comes to mind.

 

[ebedmelech]

Simple fact: The "prince" has not yet come. Another fact: The "prince" is the Antichrist. Yet another fact: The "prince" doesn't come until the 70th week which is synonymous with the "tribulation". The tribulation hasn't happened yet which means it is yet future. John 14 is all about the rapture and paints a beautiful picture of our LORD betrothed to His Bride. He will come back for us, THE CHURCH.

The ancient Jewish marriage ceremony proclaims a pretribulation rapture picture.

The groom goes to the bride's house and is betrothed to the bride (the faithful on the earth)
He pays the purchase price (his blood)
He returns to his father to prepare a place for the bride ("I go to prepare a place for you")
Later the groom comes for the bride (rapture)
He takes her to his father's house and gives her gifts where she is adorned and prepared for the wedding (judgment seat of Christ where crowns are awarded)
The wedding then takes place before the father and the witnesses (in the father's house)
The groom appears with his bride (second coming in glory with his saints)
Then the wedding feast takes place (on earth with invited guests of the bride and groom)

Oh how exceeding wonderful our Great God and Saviour Jesus Christ is! You should read about our position as believers in Christ Jesus possessing His perfect righteousness. If you truly understood the portfolio of assets and riches that are bestowed upon us as His bride, His body, then you would understand why there is no purpose in having us, the body and Bride of Christ endure His wrath during the tribulation. Did not Jesus Christ already suffer in our stead? Did He not already purchase us with His own blood? Think about it.

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

We are His body, the fulness of Him! Think about that one!!! Revelation 12 comes to mind.

No. I think not. Anytime you want to walk through Daniel and compare views from scripture...I'm ready.

 

[KJV1611Warrior]

It's called rightly dividing. Are you watching for the return of Jesus? We are repeatedly admonished to watch for Him and be ready. What are you watching for?

You said "No. I think not".

You don't think we are His Body and fulness according to scripture? What does John 14 mean if there is no rapture of the church? ALL OF THE EVIDENCE SUPPORTS A PRE TRIB RAPTURE. Did Jesus CHrist purchase you with His blood? If so, then why would we need to be purified through the great tribulation? It's a time of His wrath and purification of those who are not His church! We are purified, redeemed by faith. Why would we need to be here? It shows that you don't know the true mission and destiny of the church. Also, you don't understand the purpose of the tribulation or DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK, aka, great tribulation, Jacob's trouble.

Also, not all saints are in the church (Mt 11:11). This should help you note the distinctions between John the Baptist, who was the last of the Old Testament saints and the "least in the kingdom of heaven" who are greater than John the Baptist. Undeniable distinction.

 

[JLB777]

Scripture?

24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke 21:24

Notice what happens immediately after the times of the Gentile being fulfilled.

Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


The event that will mark the "end" or fulfillment of the "times of the Gentiles" will be "Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;"


JLB

 

[ebedmelech]

It's called rightly dividing. Are you watching for the return of Jesus? We are repeatedly admonished to watch for Him and be ready. What are you watching for?

You said "No. I think not".

You don't think we are His Body and fulness according to scripture? What does John 14 mean if there is no rapture of the church? ALL OF THE EVIDENCE SUPPORTS A PRE TRIB RAPTURE. Did Jesus CHrist purchase you with His blood? If so, then why would we need to be purified through the great tribulation? It's a time of His wrath and purification of those who are not His church! We are purified, redeemed by faith. Why would we need to be here? It shows that you don't know the true mission and destiny of the church. Also, you don't understand the purpose of the tribulation or DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK, aka, great tribulation, Jacob's trouble.

Also, not all saints are in the church (Mt 11:11). This should help you note the distinctions between John the Baptist, who was the last of the Old Testament saints and the "least in the kingdom of heaven" who are greater than John the Baptist. Undeniable distinction.

I would ask you are you reading scripture?

Daniels 70th week started when John the Baptist baptized Jesus. The Holy Spirit descended on the Lord, and God said "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased." God anointed Jesus there!

Peter affirms it in Act 10 as he witnesses to Cornelius:
Acts 10:38, 39:
38 You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.
39 We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross.

From there you go 3.5 years with Jesus as He fulfills His coming as Messiah and goes to the cross. That is Messiah "cut off" in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel. But more than that follow Daniel 9:26:
26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

That is the prophecy of the destruction of the temple. Now Daniel goes back to Jesus in 9:27:

27And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”

This is where the problem is! It is not properly translated because the "he who makes the firm covenant", is Jesus! It was Jesus who said "this cup is the New Covenant in my blood", that confirms the New Covenant! Jesus is the one who ends sacrifice and offering when He dies on the cross. After that the passage speaks of the coming temple destruction.

Where does it say the 70th week stops? It doesn't! It says Messiah is cut off "in the middle of the week" but it doesn't say the 70th week ends. So in the middle of the week Jesus dies on the cross and is resurrected!

Please show me where the 70th week stops. You can't!

The futurist (dispensational), view is the the 70th week continues somewhere in the future, but the temple was destroyed and the "abomination of desolation" occurred when the Romans surrounded Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Jerusalem was left desolate!

That is what Jesus is prophesying in Matthew 24...that is the time of Jacob's trouble! You look for a future temple, but it won't happen!

 

[JLB777]

This is where the problem is! It is not properly translated because the "he who makes the firm covenant",

Please show from scripture, where Jesus made a 7 year covenant.

The "he" in verse 27 refers to the last person mentioned, which was "the prince who is to come"!

This is where the problem is, you don't seem to understand "basic" grammar construction!


JLB

 

[Interplanner]

JLB, I think you're a bit rattled. There is no 7 year covenant. It's "firm." There are several features of the paragraph that are not as exact as we would like (like 'the end will come with a flood'--not literal). But re: a firm covenant, you must have heard of the New Covenant at some point and of its superiority as Hebrews 9, 10 explain.

There is no scholarly agreement that the 'he' in v 27 refers merely back to the most immediate. There is a larger person in the picture (Messiah) and even that is part of the picture of the prayer of Daniel, which is about 'what does Israel do about all its failures?' The interesting answer is that something is done apart from it, on behalf of it. It's sin will be atoned for by that event--the Messiah event. So lets all remember what this thing (this paragraph) exists for. Hopefully this will relieve some of the pressure we are putting on this delicate piece to make it prognosticate for us, so that we can brag to people that we have something better than Nostsradamus or something. Sorry to be so blunt, but I have to wonder why some people are so driven to make Dan 9 operate so perfectly when it is really rather messy. I wonder why you study this so much while I listen to what you say.

What is the passage's question and did it get answered? The question is what atones for Israel's sins, and the answer is the Messiah sacrifice. There is a suggestion that anticipates that Israel might not accept that, but it's just hinted.

On any passage that is not as clear as we would like (there is a reason why the debate has been so wide-ranging), at least try to grasp all the lines of reasoning.

--Inter

 

[JLB777]

--Inter

JLB, I think you're a bit rattled. There is no 7 year covenant. It's "firm." There are several features of the paragraph that are not as exact as we would like (like 'the end will come with a flood'--not literal). But re: a firm covenant, you must have heard of the New Covenant at some point and of its superiority as Hebrews 9, 10 explain.

Maybe you have trouble reading black and white. I already know you struggle with 3rd grade grammar!

Let's look at the verse -Daniel 9:27

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;

Again, please show me from scripture where Jesus "confirmed" a covenant for a 7 year period!

Hopefully you understand that a week is a 7 year period!

There is no scholarly agreement that the 'he' in v 27 refers merely back to the most immediate. There is a larger person in the picture (Messiah) and even that is part of the picture of the prayer of Daniel, which is about 'what does Israel do about all its failures?' The interesting answer is that something is done apart from it, on behalf of it. It's sin will be atoned for by that event--the Messiah event. So lets all remember what this thing (this paragraph) exists for. Hopefully this will relieve some of the pressure we are putting on this delicate piece to make it prognosticate for us, so that we can brag to people that we have something better than Nostsradamus or something. Sorry to be so blunt, but I have to wonder why some people are so driven to make Dan 9 operate so perfectly when it is really rather messy. I wonder why you study this so much while I listen to what you say.

Well I think if you ask your 3rd grade English teacher, you would find all the "scholarly" agreement you need, so that even other verse's of the bible will make more sense to you once you learn this simple basic tool called grammar.

Again, "he" in verse 27 refers to the last person mentioned, which is "the prince who is to come".

The prince who is to come is certainly not Jesus since He came long before 70 AD!

What is the passage's question and did it get answered? The question is what atones for Israel's sins, and the answer is the Messiah sacrifice. There is a suggestion that anticipates that Israel might not accept that, but it's just hinted.

On any passage that is not as clear as we would like (there is a reason why the debate has been so wide-ranging), at least try to grasp all the lines of reasoning.

The question is what atones for Israel's sins?

In the time frame of Daniel 9, I would have to say the blood of Bulls and goats!

The problem you have is, that question is not asked in Daniel 9:24-27!




JLB

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

To reply to this is this simple...Why would Jesus as well as the disciples Peter,Paul and John warn people in the 1st century about something they would NEVER see happen?

Why would Paul tell the Thessalonians:
5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

Why would John say:
Rev 1:3
3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Why would John tell us in Revelation that he was in the tribulation:
Rev 1:6:
I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus

Why would John tell us these things will "SOON" take place.

You see...you have a problem. Jesus prophesied around 33 A.D. this:
Matt 24:34
34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

A generation is 40 years. In 70 A.D. Rome destroyed the temple and left the land desolate! Just as Jesus said. 37 years later...almost a generation!

You futurist change the meaning of "this generation" in only that passage...why?

You put a big gap in Daniels 70th week...when there is none why?

You say Ezekiel's temple (which is a vision) will be built...where does Ezekiel say it will be built? Where does anyone say it will be built?

The scripture placed the gap. Like it or not, the present time we live in is after 69 weeks yet prior to the 70th week. Messiah was cut off (Calvary), the people of the prince who SHALL come (future) but hasn't yet, destroyed the city and sanctuary (Roman legions in 70 A.D.). The prince who shall come in the 70th week hasn't come yet.

The gap is filled with the church age, the first fruits of the New Covenant!

Scripture?

Luke 21:2424 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Notice what happens immediately after the times of the Gentile being fulfilled.

Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


The event that will mark the "end" or fulfillment of the "times of the Gentiles" will be "Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;"


JLB

Yes.
I notice a lot of preterists don't like to quote from Revelation anything regarding the Olivet Discourse. I Luke 21 is fulfilled on 1st century Jerusalem, that so is Revelation

Captivity and sword Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10

Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword
and shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Deuteronomy 28:68/Reve 11:2/13:10]

Why would Jesus include the SAINTS in this verse?

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the Saints

Jeremiah 15:2
“And it shall be, if they say to you, ‘Where should we go?' then you shall tell them, ‘Thus says the LORD:
“Such as are for death, to death;
And such as are for the sword, to the sword;
And such as are for the famine, to the famine;
And such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.” '

.

 

[ToServe]

During this time Jesus speaks of a signal event connected with the Temple; its desecration by an abomination which was prophesied by the Prophet Daniel (Matthew 24:15; Mark 13:14). What Temple is being spoken of here by Jesus? Was the Temple that was to be desecrated the same Temple as the one predicted to be destroyed? There are a number of contrasts within this text that indicate that Jesus was talking about two different Temples:

Yes, that is true.

(1) The Temple described in Matthew 24:15 is not said to be destroyed, only desecrated (see Revelation 11:2). By contrast, the Temple in Jesus' day (or Matthew 24:2) was to be completely leveled: " not one stone would be left standing on another" (Matthew 24:2; Mark 13:2; Luke 19:44).

The two Temples are contrasted by the one that is the 'Type' which was destroyed and the other the 'Anti--Type' which is the Post Pentecost Temple of God that is defiled only for a time, in that if it were possible even the Elect are at risk of being deceived. The 'Type' is destroyed in contrast to the 'Anti-Type' which is spared towards the end when the Saints of the Most High (The Elect) take back the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever (Daniel 7:18).

(2) The Temple' s desecration would be a signal for Jews to escape destruction (Matthew 24:16-18), " be saved" (Matthew 24:22) and experience the promised " redemption" (Luke 21:28). By contrast the destruction of the Temple in Matthew 24:2 was a judgment " because you did not recognize the time of your visitation [Messiah' s first advent]" (Luke 19:44b) and resulted in the Temple being level[ed] to the ground and your children [the Jews] within you" (Luke 19:44a).

You have got this totally wrong. The 'Anti-Type' Temple is the New Testament Temple of God to whom the Elect as the Living Stones are every part of. The Elect are being warned by Jesus to not be deceived by the false christs (leaders) and the false prophets (ministers) who infiltrate its very walls (congregations). It has nothing to do with ethnicity of being Jewish or a nation building a brick and mortar temple without God sanctioning it, since the Pentecost Temple is the only Temple that God has sanctioned from Pentecost.

(3) The generation of Jews that are alive at the time that the Temple is desecrated will expect Messiah' s coming " immediately after" (Matthew 24:29), and are predicted to not pass away until they have experienced it (Matthew 24:34). By contrast, the generation of Jews who saw the Temple destroyed would pass away and 2,000 years (to date) would pass without redemption.

Not the unbelieving Jews as you say, but the believing Saints of the Most High, the Elect who endure and overcome the apostasy that is playing out within the very body of Christ that is the Temple of God being desecrated by the many Judas Iscariot like sons of perdition.

(4) The text Jesus cited concerning the Temple' s desecration, Daniel 9:27, predicts that the one who desecrates this Temple will himself be destroyed. By contrast, those who destroyed the Temple in a.d. 70 (in fulfillment of Jesus' prediction)- the Roman emperor Vespasian and his son Titus- were not destroyed but returned to Rome in triumph carrying vessels from the destroyed Temple.

2 Thessalonians 2 presents the Man of Sin who are the many sons of perdition who loved not the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness who are removed by the breath of Christ's mouth and destroyed by the brilliance of his coming. Man of Sin is Anthropos of Son which really means Peoples of Sin and these are once Christian believers who originally were given the knowledge of the truth but darkness entered their hearts and they fell away from the faith within the context of the falling away mentioned.

(4) The text Jesus cited concerning the Temple' s desecration, Daniel 9:27, predicts that the one who desecrates this Temple will himself be destroyed. By contrast, those who destroyed the Temple in a.d. 70 (in fulfillment of Jesus' prediction)- the Roman emperor Vespasian and his son Titus- were not destroyed but returned to Rome in triumph carrying vessels from the destroyed Temple.

The ones destroyed as recorded in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 are the sons of perdition who like Judas Iscariot trampled the Son of God under foot and who offend the Spirit of Grace. God destroys the apostates within his very own Holy Chuch City Jerusalem where the false christs and the false prophets had infiltrated and had overrun (Matthew 24).

(5) The time " immediately after" (Matthew 24:29) the time of the Temple' s desecration would see Israel' s repentance (Matthew 24:30), followed by, as Matthew 23:29 implies, a restoration of the Temple. By contrast, the time following the destruction of the Temple only saw a " hardening" happen " to Israel," which is to last " until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in" (Romans 11:25)- still 2,000 years and counting.

Desecration of the Temple (definite article) can only occur if it is the Temple that God has ordained and sanctioned by his Holy Spirit. The Brick and Mortar temples after Pentecost cannot be desolated because they are not the New Testament Temple that offers the Daily Sacrifice (Romans 12:1, 1 Peter 2:5)

1 Peter 2:5
you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

(6) For the Temple that is desecrated, the scope is of a worldwide tribulation " coming upon the world" (Luke 21:26; compare Matthew 24:21- 22; Mark 13:19- 20), a global regathering of the Jewish people " from one end of the sky to the other" (Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27), and a universal revelation of the Messiah at Israel' s rescue (Matthew 24:30- 31; Mark 13:26; Luke 21:26- 27). This scope accords with the prophesied end-time battle for Jerusalem recorded in Zechariah 12- 14, where " all nations of the earth will be gathered against it" (Zechariah 12:3). By contrast the a.d. 70 assault on Jerusalem predicted in Luke 21:20 is by the armies of one empire (Rome). Therefore, if there are two different attacks on Jerusalem, separated by more than 2,000 years, then two distinct Temples are considered in Matthew 24:1- 2 and Matthew 24:15.[6]

Zechariah 14:1-4 describes the Church City Jerusalem where the Elect are being trodden under foot by the many false christs and the many false prophets. Jesus comes to their defence on the Day of Great battle when he separates the goats from the sheep by casting them out of his Holy City Jerusalem and giving back the Kingdom to the Saints of the Most High (The Elect) Daniel 7:18.

The above points demonstrate preterist problems that have no resolution in their attempt to cram still future prophecy into a past mold. Details of Matthew 24 cannot be made to fit into a first century fulfillment.

Both Preterists and Futurists who present a literal 'Type' brick and mortar temple that is absent of God's Holy Spirit completely ignore the 'Anti-Type' Temple of the Holy Spirit that God sanctions as the only Temple that can make the Daily Sacrifice offering as taught in Romans 12:1 and 1 Peter 2:5.

The pretext you raise is in complete agreement with the Preterist position, albeit from an opposite perspective in relation to time, yet both Preterists and Futurists are in agreement in regards to a brick and mortar building that is NOT the Temple of God. The Preterists position in regards to the Temple context is not different and in this regard, they are the same coin with different faces. Their position is both in error as they totally neglect the 'Anti-Type' Temple of God. Both the Preterist and the Futurist position as far as the New Testament Temple identification in relation to true woship and the true daily offering of sacrifice is but a fable based on an Old Covenant pretext that has no merit what so ever post Pentecost.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The last four remaining churches on earth:

Thyatira is the Roman Catholic Church and the eastern Orthodox Churches. At the end, this assembly will be tried by death. The passage seems to imply that most in this assembly are cast into great tribulation and that the descendants of this Church are killed in the tribulation. This Church has good works but most were in adultery with mystery Babylon.

That would make the great City in Revelation 18:7 Vatican City/Rome, and the Rich man in Luke 16:19 the Pope. Interesting view.

Let's look more closely at that 1st century Church in the city of Thyatira.

The Church in Thyatira is the one where Jesus proclaims Himself Son of God and mentions Queen Jezebel, the persecutor of Elijah and the prophets in the OT.

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series

Rev. 2:18-20
“These things saith the Son of God, who hath His eyes like unto a flame of fire, and His feet are like fine brass; I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee,
because thou sufferest that woman/wife Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols”

The church in Thyatira has a longer message delivered to it from Jesus Christ than any of the seven churches, although it is interesting to note that the church there is the smallest of the seven, and the city of Thyatira is the smallest of the seven cities.
Thyatira means “sweet perfume of sacrifice” and when you study this word it speaks of a perfume that sends forth its fragrance as the result of bruising, crushing, or breaking. .................

JEZEBEL

As queen of Israel, she immediately set up the altars, shrines, and temples of her false gods, and began to require the people of Israel to worship these gods.
The Bible tells us that she also practiced witchcraft and that at one time Jezebel had four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal and four hundred prophets of the grove who “ate at her table” (I Kings 18:19), which undoubtedly means that she supported and influenced every one of these false prophets............

Verses in the OT:

1 Kings 19:1
And Ahab declareth to Jezebel all that Elijah did, and all how he slew all the prophets by the sword,
1Kings 21:25
surely there hath none been like Ahab, who sold himself to do the evil thing in the eyes of Jehovah, whom Jezebel his wife hath moved,..............

Now let's look at the Rich Man in Luke 16 who is dressed in purple and fine linen:

Luke 16:19
A certain Man was rich and clothed in purple and fine linen making-merry down to a-day, shiningly

And the widow Queen in Revelation 18 who is also dressed in purple and fine linen:

Revelation 18:
7 As much She as glorifies herself, and indulges be giving to Her tormenting and mourning that in Her heart she is saying
'I am sitting a Queen and widow not I am
and mourning not I shall be seeing'.
16 and saying, Woe, woe, the great City, that was arrayed with fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and gilded in gold, and precious stone, and pearls -- because in one hour so much riches were made waste!

Vatican City/Rome

I would think 1st century Jerusalem being symbolized in Revelation is more scriptural than the view of the Roman Papacy, Pope and Vatican City/Rome......but what the heck do I know...........

Is the GREAT CITY in Revelation symbolizing the LAKE OF FIRE?

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

One thing that disturbs me about a lot of those that preach partial preterism is I rarely see the Olivet Disourse mentioned in relation to the book of Revelation.

I believe there are some partial preterists that view the 1st 33 or 35 verses as fulfilled and the rest future.

This was said by a PP that also wrote a book on Matthew 24 some time back.
quote Dee Dee Warren:

Proponents of the former view include Dan Trotter and Gary DeMar,
and proponents of the latter include Kenneth Gentry and Marcellus Kik.

proponents of the former view [that there is a break in Matthew 24 beginning with either verse 35 or 36 [Switch-On]] include Kenneth Gentry and Marcellus Kik

proponents of the latter view [that holds that the entire enchilada primarily belongs to the first century [Switch-Off]] , include Dan Trotter and Gary DeMar

Frankly there are strong arguments for both, and I have held both positions, in fact in writing this piece I have waffled - when I started writing I was becoming very convinced of a Pro-Switch view, now upon writing it I am back to my former position of a No-Switch view.

If in fact there is any change after verse 34, this would be what I would propose (I have not—or my poor memory is not allowing me to recall—read anyone who has made this type of the characterization): the entire Discourse has primary and typological ramifications as does almost the entirety of the Bible, properly understood


,

 

[claninja]

Please show from scripture, where Jesus made a 7 year covenant.

There is no scripture that specifically states Jesus made a 7 year covenant. Additionally, there is no scripture that specifically states an "antichrist" will make a 7 year covenant.

The debate seems to be over the identity of the one making a covenant and putting and end to the sacrifice and offering. As Daniel 9 does not specifically give us the identity of this person, we should look to scripture in order to interpret scripture.
Daniel 9:27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week,g and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering.

1.) Confirming a covenant

Jesus is the messenger of the covenant
malachi 3:1 “I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

Hebrews 9:15 Therefore Christ is the mediator of a new covenant,

Luke 22:20 In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is poured out for you.

Are there any scriptures that state the antichrist will make a covenant? Not that I could find, maybe you have some verses that you know of that you coul share?



2.) Sacrifice and offering will be put to an end.

Jesus did away with first (sacrifices and offerings) to establish the new covenant.
Hebrews 10:8-9 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second.

The other passages in Daniel only refer to the daily burnt offering (1 morning lamb and 1 evening lamb) and not sacrifices and offerings in general.
Daniel 8:11 It became great, even as great as the Prince of the host. And the regular burnt offering was taken away from him, and the place of his sanctuary was overthrown
Daniel 11:31 and shall take away the regular burnt offering
Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away

Are there any scriptures that specifically state an Antichrist will take away the sacrifices and offerings? None that I could find, but maybe you know of some that you could share?

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;

Hopefully you understand that a week is a 7 year period!

Again there is no scripture that specifically states Jesus confirmed a covenant with many for 1 week.

However, many scholars agree that Jesus' ministry was between 3 and 3.5 years

This information is based on the start of his ministry at his baptism in the 15th year of Tiberius' reign (either 26AD or 29AD)
Luke 3:1,23 In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar; Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age

Jesus celebrated at least 3 Passovers during his ministry, so based on this info, at minimum, Jesus' ministry was 2 years
John 2:13 The Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
John 6:4 Now the Passover, the feast of the Jews, was at hand
John 13:1 Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart out of this world

Jesus died on a Friday, the day of preparation, before the sabbath. It's generally accepted that there are only 2 Fridays between the years 26AD and 36 AD that the day of preparation fell on: Friday April 7, 30 AD or Friday April 3, 33 AD.
Matthew 27:62-63 The next day, the one after Preparation Day, the chief priests and Pharisees assembled before Pilate. “Sir,” they said, “we remember that while He was alive that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise again.’ So give the order that the tomb be secured until the third day
Luke 23:53-54 Then he took it down, wrapped it in a linen cloth, and placed it in a tomb cut into the rock, where no one had yet been laid. It was the Preparation Day, and the Sabbath was just beginning.


Possible options for the length of Jesus ministry:

1.) 26AD to 30AD ~ 3.5 years
2.) 26AD to 33AD ~ 6.5 years
3.) 29 AD to 33 AD~ 3.5 years

I learn towards options 1 or 3 as 6.5 years seems too long with the available information

The prophecy of the 70 weeks is specifically about Daniel's people: israel
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeksc are decreed about your people
While Jesus did interact with some gentiles, He was only sent to Israel.
Matthew 10:5-6 “Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matthew 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

**Thus Jesus ministry to Israel was around 3.5 years, from his baptism until his death resurrection and ascension.

After Jesus ascended to heaven, the gospel went only to Jews in Jerusalem.
Acts 6:7 7And the word of God continued to increase, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests became obedient to the faith.

It wasn't until after a great persecution arose against the church in Jerusalem, that the gospel went OUTSIDE of Jerusalem.
Acts 8:1 And Saul approved of his execution. And there arose on that day a great persecution against the church in Jerusalem, and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles

So how long was it from Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension until the gospel was scattered outside of Jerusalem? 1260 days or 3.5 years

When the child (Jesus) was caught up to heaven, the woman (Israel) is nourished for 1260 days.
Revelation 12:5-6 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rulea all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, 6and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 day


Thus we have the final week: Jesus 3.5 year ministry, then his being cut off in the midst of the week and putting and end to the sacrifice and offering, followed by 3.5 years of the gospel nourishing Israel in Jerusalem. After the 70 weeks were accomplished, the gospel began going to the ends of the earth (gentiles).

 

[claninja]

The scripture placed the gap. Like it or not, the present time we live in is after 69 weeks yet prior to the 70th week. Messiah was cut off (Calvary), the people of the prince who SHALL come (future) but hasn't yet, destroyed the city and sanctuary (Roman legions in 70 A.D.). The prince who shall come in the 70th week hasn't come yet.

The gap theory actually creates a logical contradiction. Ill start with a story:

I tell you I will build you a house in 12 months. I then proceed to work on your house for only 1 month out of the year (let's say june) followed by gaps of no work for 11 months. 12 years later, the house is finished. Now the first statement is still true "I will build you a house in 12 months", as I worked on it for 12 Junes, even though it was finished in 12 years.

The same idea applies for the 70 week prophecy. There are 6 things that must be accomplished in 70 weeks :
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeksc are decreed about your people and your holy city, 1.) to finish the transgression, 2.) to put an end to sin, 3.) and to atone for iniquity, 4.) to bring in everlasting righteousness, 5.) to seal both vision and prophet,6.) and to anoint a most holy place.d

As long as these 6 things are accomplished in the 70 prophetic weeks, then Daniel 9:24 is a true statement, regardless if there are gaps of hundreds or thousands of years between the prophetic weeks.

Back to the house story: Now, again, the 1st statement is true " I will build your house in 12 months" ONLY as long as I work on the house in month of June. As soon as I do ANY work on the house outside of june, in the gap months (July-May) of no work, the first statement becomes false.

This also, is true for the 70 weeks. If any of the 6 points of Daniel 9:24 are fulfilled in a gap, outside of the 70 prophetic weeks, Daniel 9:24 becomes a false statement.

The angel tells us that it would be 7+62 weeks (69 weeks) UNTIL the Anointed one comes.
Daniel 9:25 Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem UNTIL the Anointed One, f the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens

This means that when the 69 weeks were accomplished, the anointed one came. Due to the Hebrew word UNTIL, this means that the anointed Jesus did not come during the 69th week, but when the 69th week was completed.

So, if there is a gap between the 69th and 70th week, that means that Jesus was anointed, ministered, died, resurrected, and ascended in a gap. This means that Jesus did not fulfill any of the 6 points of Daniel 9:24, otherwise, if Jesus did fulfill any of the 6 points of Daniel 9:24 at his first coming in the gap, Daniel 9:24 becomes a false statement.

So in order for one to make the claim that there is a gap between the 69th and 70th week, that person must therefore claim that Jesus did not fulfill ANY of the 6 points of Daniel 9:24 at his first coming.

However, As there are numerous NT scriptures to validate the fulfillment of the 6 points of Daniel 9:24 through Christ's first coming, then the gap theory is proved false.

 

[parousia70]

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that Jesus' parousia would occur within the lifetime of His apostles.
(Matt 24:34, Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32,Matt 16:28, Luke 9:27,Matt 10:23)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that all things written would be fulfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.
(Luke 21:20-22)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that as it was in Noah's day, So would the coming of the Son of Man be. The wicked would be taken in Judgement, and the rightesous would be "left behind" on earth.
(Matt 24:37-41)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that salvation was not complete until Christ's parousia.
(Hebrews 9:28)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that The way to heaven was not opened until the Temple was destroyed.
(Hebrews 9:8)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that on the "new earth" Birth, death, ageing and sinners would continue to exist.(Isaiah 65:17-21, Revelation 21 & 22)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that Christ is an invisible King, He was to come "in His kingdom" and that the coming of His kingdom would be "unobservable"
(1Timothy 1:17, Luke 17:20)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that Christ took the kingdom from the Jews, and gave it to the church, who is the holy nation that bears it's fruits.
(Matt 21:43, 1Peter 2:9)

The Bible,and therefore preterism, teaches that the Church is the "Israel of God" and the only heir to the promise of Abraham. (Gal 6:16)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that the true inheritance of Abraham is not earthly, but the better country of Heaven. (Hebrews 11:16, 1 Peter 1:4)

The Bible, and therefore preterism, is true and correct.