Fallacies of Preterism

[Jipsah]

The scriptures say the antichrist will “confirm” a covenant with many for 7 years.

I didn't see any mention of "the antichrist" in the verses you posted. You just kind of assigned that "meaning" to the Scripture based on your a priori doctrinal suppositions. Saying "Scripture says..." when in fact it does not is doubleplus ungood.

 

[Jipsah]

On the contrary, The prince who is to come is a reference to the antichrist

Says so right there in your doctrine.

then puts and end to sacrifice and offering, in the middle of the 7 year period.

So there's how you identify your prince who is to come. Who put an end to sacrifice and offering? (They did end, you know.)

Do you teach people that the coming of the Lord and the resurrection is past?

No. Do you believe that our Lord's followers saw Jerusalem compassed with armies? If so, then do you still deny that our Lord's prophecy to that effect was fulfilled?

 

[JLB777]

So there's how you identify your prince who is to come. Who put an end to sacrifice and offering? (They did end, you know.)

Yes and if you read the passages with the context, you will see that the prince who is to come, put an end to the sacrifice and offering, after the the events of 70 AD.


“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 9:26

The city and sanctuary are destroyed, and this no more sacrifices and offering are made, because the Roman soldiers have destroyed both the city of Jerusalem as well as the sanctuary where the sacrifices take place.

Now comes the events of the 70th week which comes well after the events of 70AD.

Notice the language used in verse 26, that describe the “prince”.

The “prince who is to come”, is plainly referred to as a ruler who will come in the future; Certainly future of 70AD.


Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.” Daniel 9:27


So we see that during the 70th week, sacrifice and offering had begun again, and the prince who is to come, put an end to sacrifice and offering in the middle of the week.

That’s that 31/2 year time marker.

The remaining 31/2 years is referred to as the great tribulation, also know as, the times, time and a half of time, as well as the 1260 days, of the great tribulation.


Jesus refers to Daniel, and this prophecy in His Olivet Discourse.

• For then there will be great tribulation,

“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened. Matthew 24:15-21



JLB

 

[jgr]

Yes and if you read the passages with the context, you will see that the prince who is to come, put an end to the sacrifice and offering, after the the events of 70 AD.


“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 9:26

The city and sanctuary are destroyed, and this no more sacrifices and offering are made, because the Roman soldiers have destroyed both the city of Jerusalem as well as the sanctuary where the sacrifices take place.

Now comes the events of the 70th week which comes well after the events of 70AD.

Notice the language used in verse 26, that describe the “prince”.

The “prince who is to come”, is plainly referred to as a ruler who will come in the future; Certainly future of 70AD.


Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.” Daniel 9:27


So we see that during the 70th week, sacrifice and offering had begun again, and the prince who is to come, put an end to sacrifice and offering in the middle of the week.

That’s that 31/2 year time marker.

The remaining 31/2 years is referred to as the great tribulation, also know as, the times, time and a half of time, as well as the 1260 days, of the great tribulation.


Jesus refers to Daniel, and this prophecy in His Olivet Discourse.

• For then there will be great tribulation,

“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened. Matthew 24:15-21



JLB

There is only one individual specifically identified as a prince in Daniel 9:24-27.

It is Messiah. (Daniel 9:25)

He is the grammatical antecedent of the prince in Daniel 9:26.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Jesus refers to Daniel, and this prophecy in His Olivet Discourse.

• For then there will be great tribulation,

“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
JLB

Daniel 12:1
“Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise.
And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time;
and at that time your people escape, everyone who is found written in the book.

The whole Jerusalem/Temple discourse talks about the existing 1st century Temple and City.
To make it mean anything other than that, is severely twisting the Scriptures to create a man made doctrine.....

Let me put Luke 21 up first to better compare it to Daniel 12:1

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Post #2..."Coming out from the Temple"........

Luke 21
5 and of some saying concerning the Temple, that to goodly stones and votive-offerings<334> it has been adorned<2885>

20 Whenever yet ye may perceiving/seeing Jerusalem being encompassed by armies, then be knowing that is nigh<1451> the desolating of Her...[Revelation 18:19]
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

36 “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Matthew 24
Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.

15 Whenever then ye may be seeing the abomination of the desolation, the being declared thru Daniel the prophet, having-stood in a place, holy
(the one-reading let him be minding/understanding)

21 “For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Mark 13:14
1 And He going forth out of the Temple, one of His Disciples is saying to Him

14 `Whenever yet ye may be seeing the abomination of the desolation, the being declared thru Daniel the prophet, having-stood where not it is binding,
(the one-reading let him be minding/understanding),.......

19 “For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.



..

 

[BABerean2]

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.” Daniel 9:27

The following comes from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.


Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.

 

[JLB777]

The following comes from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.


Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.

Looks like they were still learning how to spell in 1599.




JLB

 

[JLB777]

There is only one individual specifically identified as a prince in Daniel 9:24-27.

It is Messiah. (Daniel 9:25)

He is the grammatical antecedent of the prince in Daniel 9:26.

Total Blasphemy. Total Heresy.


“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 9:26

Messiah is no longer on the earth, but is now at this point seated in heaven at the right hand of God.

The year 70 AD and the events of that year have taken place.


Now comes verse 27 which takes place on earth, some time after the year 70 AD in which the temple has be destroyed.


Please explain how the sacrifice and offering will resume without and temple.


Please explain how Jesus Christ the true Messiah makes a covenant with many for years while He is in heaven?


Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”




JLB

 

[claninja]

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;

the "he" that confirms the covenant is Christ.

However, since it seems we disagree on who the "he" is, maybe you could provide scripture outside of Daniel 9 where an antichrist makes a covenant.


For example, here are 2 verses, outside of Daniel 9, showing Jesus is the messenger of the covenant and makes the new covenant with his blood.

Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send My messenger, who will prepare the way before Me. Then the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to His temple—the Messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight—see, He is coming,” says the LORD of Hosts.

Luke 22:20 In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is poured out for you.

So can you provide any scriptures of an antichrist making a covenant to support your theory that the "he" is the antichrist?

Please explain how the sacrifice and offering will resume without and temple.

Why would they resume?

Jesus took away the physical sacrifice and offering for all those who believe. and by the temple destruction in 70ad made it impossible for the rituals of the old covenant to continue.

Hebrews 10:8-9 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second.

Please explain how Jesus Christ the true Messiah makes a covenant with many for years while He is in heaven?

The Law and prophets were until John the Baptist. The new covenant: the gospel of the kingdom of God, was preached starting with Christ's earthly ministry.
Luke 16:16 The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the gospel of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.

 

[BABerean2]

Now comes verse 27 which takes place on earth,

Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18 reveal the time period of about 7 years when the Gospel was taken "first" to Israel before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.



Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

.

 

[jgr]

Total Blasphemy. Total Heresy.

Better get hold of the Holy Spirit, Gabriel, and Daniel; forthwith; and alert them to their egregious prophetic errors: Their unforgivable exclusions of the word “antichrist” and references to him, and their inexcusable inclusions of the word “Messiah” and references to Him.

Be prepared, however, to be informed of the Scriptural definitions of blasphemy and heresy.

To wit: The attribution of the divine works of Christ, to Satan. Matthew 12:22-32.

AKA the “prophetic” malformations and mutilations which emanate incessantly from the oracles of dispensational modernism.

When the shoes fit...

...they must be worn.

 

[ToServe]

7 years is the entire duration of the New Covenant from the ministry of Christ to his coming.

 

[Calminian]

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Daniel 9:26-27


The antichrist is referred to in this scripture as “the prince who is to come”....

Yeah, very obvious reference to Antichrist and the breaking of a seven year covenant with Israel (who make these sacrifices). He will be of the people who destroyed the Temple (has to be Rome). And he blasphemes the Temple (which must be future and rebuilt). "And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” Setting all theological biases aside, this is the most most natural understanding.

 

[anna ~ grace]

I have heard that a partial preterist reading of Revelation is possible.

 

[jgr]

Yeah, very obvious reference to Antichrist and the breaking of a seven year covenant with Israel (who make these sacrifices). He will be of the people who destroyed the Temple (has to be Rome). And he blasphemes the Temple (which must be future and rebuilt). "And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” Setting all theological biases aside, this is the most most natural understanding.

The only individual appearing in Daniel 9:24-27 is Messiah.

Antichrist is unseen, unsaid, and unknown.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I have heard that a partial preterist reading of Revelation is possible.

Hello GS. It is not only possible, but very probable.

If Luke 21 is the 70ad destruction of Jerusalem [which many Preterists, and even some futurists, agree with, then so must the book of Revelation, at least the 1st 19 chapters.

Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden<3961> by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Deuteronomy 28:68/Reve 11:2/13:10]

Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary of the God and the Altar[Golden Altar] and those worshiping in it
2 and the Court/fold<833>[water lavar/Altar of Sacrifice], without of the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out!<1544> out-side, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the nations
and the holy City they shall be treading<3961> forty two months.
Revelation 14:20 - And the wine-press was trampled<3961> outside the City,
and blood came out of the wine-press, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints

In fact, a lot of my studies mainly involve Luke's 70ad Temple/Jerusalem discourses in conjunction with Revelation.

Is the "parousia" showing in Luke 21?
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...elation-jerusalem-70ad.8090233/#post-73386232
Daniel 12:1 and Luke 21 same event?
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...tion-deliverance-of-ye.8078218/#post-73084511

Here is a link to some early and more modern commentaries on Revelation for those interested.
[I haven't read thru them yet as I am mainly focusing on the Greek and harmonizing the 70ad Temple/Jerusalem discourses of Matt, Mar and Luk.]

https://www.preteristarchive.com/?s=revelation+and+70ad&id=m

Greg Bahnsen: Hermeneutics in the Book of Revelation (1984)
and fifty, or an average of more than ten for each chapter in Revelation.*40 Tenney claims that 250 Old Testament passages are referred to 348 times in Revelation. The Greek New Testament edited by Westcott and Hort listed over 400 references to the Old Testament in Revelation. Other estimates range as high as over 500 (claims Ezell)*41 or approximately 500 (claims Scroggie).*42 The computation by Vanhoye showed that there were 518 allusions in Revelation to the Old Testament, *43 in which case there would be well over one allusion to the Old Testament in each verse of Revelation if those…Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
One man studied and found 348 allusions (not illusions, Light) in Revelation from the Old Testament. You see the similarity in wording and the context mirrored in Revelation and the particular Old Testament story, and immediately can recognize the reference source!
That's IF you know the bible well enough to even notice that.

95 of the 348 plain references used in Revelation as taken from the Old Testament are repeated in Revelation.
That makes about 250 Old Testament passages are cited. How many chapters are in Revelation? 22. That makes about TEN OLD TESTAMENT REFERENCES FOR EVERY CHAPTER!




.

 

[JLB777]

the "he" that confirms the covenant is Christ.

Can you provide scripture that says Jesus confirmed a covenant for 7 years, after the events of 70 AD?




JLB

 

[JLB777]

7 years is the entire duration of the New Covenant from the ministry of Christ to his coming.

Please provide scripture that says the New Covenant is 7 years long.



JLB

 

[JLB777]

7 years is the entire duration of the New Covenant from the ministry of Christ to his coming.

Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant. Hebrews 13:20



JLB

 

[BABerean2]

Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant. Hebrews 13:20

From the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.


Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

Do you think the angel Gabriel came to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant, and then he failed to even mention the New Covenant?

.