Faith & works in orthodoxy?

[Momzilla]

Oh and to add to that... my limited understanding of indulgences (derived from a brief study of The Canterbury Tales when I was in high school) is that an "indulgence" was essentially a permission slip to commit a particular sin, which one could purchase. It was a means of funding the church.

I may well be wrong about this, and I hope someone will correct me if I am.

 

[ChoirDir]

Indulgences are sort of a point system. If you read the Bible you get so many points, if you say the Rosary you get more points. These are applied to lessen your time in Purgatory. So the indulgences are sort of tied in with salvation. I believe there were also indulgences granted on a monetary basis in the early Latin Church but not exactly sure

 

[Sergius_Lucius]

w w w.osb.org/lectio/cassian/conf/book2/conf13.html#13.0

St. John Cassian the Roman (360-435) "ON THE PROTECTION OF GOD" -- a perfect explanation of the Orthodox view on this question with a lot of quotations from the Scripture.

There is also an excellent work by Patr. Sergius (Stragorodsky) "The Orthodox Doctrine of Salvation" but I'm not sure if it was translated into English.

With love,
Sergey

 

[Isaiah 53]

Now I'm not sure if I am off base here, but I believe that Protestants see works as indulgences which the Orthodox do not believe in. One of Luther's main points was the whole indulgence system in the Latin Church.

If I may chime in (I am not debating merely representing a protestant view). My view as a Southern Baptist on works vs. faith is as such.

Salvation is a gift given us for free by God, works are the result of that gift. So when James states that faith without works is dead, this is not a contradiction of terms. Those works are a result and proof of the salvation already received by faith.

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!

 

[Patristic]

Salvation is a gift given us for free by God, works are the result of that gift. So when James states that faith without works is dead, this is not a contradiction of terms. Those works are a result and proof of the salvation already received by faith.

The problem with this view is that James chapter 2 says faith was working together with works. Both of them were present simultaneously, and through those works Abraham's faith was made mature. If the model you are suggesting is true James should have said Abraham's faith produced the works. James is saying faith and works are both together like husband and wife, the protestant model states that faith is the mother and the works are her children since faith produces the works.

 

[countrymousenc]

I hope you won't mind very much if another Protestant (who is still very interested in Orthodoxy) chimes in. I'd like to get a better understanding of Orthodox thinking on this issue, and I'm trying to develop a more accurate picture of the relationship between faith and works. I'm thinking that we Protestants have created a dichotomy between the two that doesn't represent reality at all. Many months ago, on another board, an Orthodox Christian explained that, in Orthodoxy, the Scriptures and Tradition work together as an organic whole rather than one being elevated over the other. Perhaps this is also the truth about faith and works. Without either one, you don't really have the other. It's not a matter of one before the other. Does that make sense? Whereas we Protestants say that belief must come first and must cause us to work. If we are wrong, then it would be equally an error to claim that works precede belief. Sigh, am I thinking in the right direction?

And thanks ahead of time for your responses.

May God bless you all,
cm

 

[brewmama]

countrymouse,

I'd say you were thinking in the right direction.

I found an interesting article written by a Protestant which denounces the traditional Prot. view of faith vs works.http://www.touchstonemag.com/docs/issues/13.6docs/13-6pg41.html

As you say, Orthodoxy has never created a schism between the two.

 

[Patristic]

I found an interesting article written by a Protestant which denounces the traditional Prot. view of faith vs works.http://www.touchstonemag.com/docs/i...s/13-6pg41.html

That article is interesting. A lot of the arguments presented are based on the thesis of the Finnish Lutherans and their interpretation of Luther. It's interesting that you recommended that article because I am actually reading the book the arguments are taken from.

 

[The Prokeimenon!]

the Scriptures and Tradition work together as an organic whole rather than one being elevated over the other. Perhaps this is also the truth about faith and works. Without either one, you don't really have the other. It's not a matter of one before the other.

Bingo, Countrymouse! You are exactly right. Orthodoxy is not "either-or", it's "both-and"

God Bless you,
Moses

 

[Oblio]

The faith vs. works dichotomy also seems to mimic the spiritual vs. physical dichotomy or dualism that is often seen in Protestant belief systems. In Orthodox theology we do not separate the physical from the spiritual, what we do physically influences our spirit and our spiritual life influences the physical. Likewise we cannot separate faith and works, they are married together, ever intertwined.

 

[Photini]

I heard this interesting thing on the phosphora while listening to one of the cassettes I have. It is a tradition in the Orthodox Church for the faithful to bake and offer the bread that is to be used for the Eucharist...the prosphora. This is symbolic of the part we play in the salvation of our souls. By taking what God gives to us (wheat) and making it into bread and offering it back to Him, and in turn He offers Himself back to us. We do not use wheat and grapes for Communion, but bread and wine...which involves human effort.

For more about the making of prosphora...see: www.prosphora.org

"Let me be fodder for wild beasts, that is how I can get to God. I am God's wheat and am being ground in the teeth of wild beasts to make a pure loaf for Christ...I shall coax them to eat me up at once and not hold off..."
-St. Ignatius, Letter to the Romans

 

[Suzannah]

Here again, I think the problem inherent here, is language...I don't think the Orthodox and the Protestants always speak the same language. I see the "works" in many Protestants. I see those same works, perhaps in a different framework, in the Orthodox. I think we're really talking about "sanctification". It is my understanding, that the Patristic fathers taught that salvation occurred after death and that our works do not guarantee this. Rather, that our works guarantee the "fullness of Christian life" and help us TOWARD our salvation. I think Isaiah 53 has the right teaching: salvation is a free gift. God doesn't "have" to grant it. But he does, because, we have not only "believed" but we have acted on that belief and we have sought Him in all our ways. I don't really know where this leaves those who were "saved" but then "fell away". I don't even pretend to know what happens to them....better I should concentrate on my own problems/sins, and work it out in fear and trembling...But I did want to say that I don't think that many Protestants are totally wrong in saying it is a "free gift"...I think they are right about that...

 

[countrymousenc]

Here again, I think the problem inherent here, is language...I don't think the Orthodox and the Protestants always speak the same language.

I think there's some truth to that; good point!

...But I did want to say that I don't think that many Protestants are totally wrong in saying it is a "free gift"...I think they are right about that...

I don't get the impression that this is different from Orthodox teaching, either (based on what I've read thus far.)

Suppose you're standing on one side of a river and you have a life and death need to get across. There is a boat tied to a post, with a note and a key. The note says that anyone may use the boat to cross at no charge. If you believe that the boat will get you across, and if you trust the writer of the note, you get in the boat and go! The use of the boat is afree gift, but you have to use it; you have to get in and turn the key and drive the boat. Standing there admiring the boat and telling everyone else that you believe in the boat will not save your life.

Make sense?

And the funny thing is, most of my fellow-Protestants (at least the ones I know) would agree. But we have this annoying habit of dissecting and systematically pigeonholing everything about the Christian Faith and insisting on chronologizing... well, you get the picture.

 

[Photini]

Early in my journey of reading, I came to realize that in Orthodoxy...Love = Works. and Works = attaining the virtues of Christ (Christian Virtue), not "works of the Law."

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Im just wondering where Momzilla read "faith alone" in Romans 3:24?

Is that the part where Luther inserted the word "alone" and she is reading from that version of the Bible?

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

If I may chime in (I am not debating merely representing a protestant view). My view as a Southern Baptist on works vs. faith is as such.

Salvation is a gift given us for free by God, works are the result of that gift. So when James states that faith without works is dead, this is not a contradiction of terms. Those works are a result and proof of the salvation already received by faith.

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!

If works are automatic, why does Jesus warn us to keep producing fruit, or we will be cut off and burned?

 

[Momzilla]

The citation of Romans 3:24 is a reference, not a quote. The phrase "faith alone" is my own phrasing, but I'm pretty sure it's the phrasing that I have heard from other protestants. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

The citation of Romans 3:24 is a reference, not a quote. The phrase "faith alone" is my own phrasing, but I'm pretty sure it's the phrasing that I have heard from other protestants. Sorry for the confusion.

Oh, gotcha, thanks. I was confused because the only time the phrase "faith alone" occurs in the Bible is when James says "we are NOT justified by faith alone."

Probably why Luther wanted to throw James out of the Bible.

 

[countrymousenc]

Early in my journey of reading, I came to realize that in Orthodoxy...Love = Works. and Works = attaining the virtues of Christ (Christian Virtue), not "works of the Law."

First, if I'm being too talkative - (this is the TAW forum, and I'm still Protestant) - somebody tell me! Reading your comment, Photini, I realized that my analogy smacks too much of salvation as an almost purely individual experience. You are right, and what you said is what I find in the Holy Scriptures about Christian works, or faithworks. I suppose Lawworks, by contrast, would be like trying to rack up Brownie points with God, an attempt at circumventing His free gift offer, by, say, trying to swim across the river.

Please be patient with me; I'm taking baby steps!

God bless you all,
cm

 

[Photini]

"If a man resolves to treat and heal his soul, he must first apply himself to a careful examination of his whole being. He must learn to distinguish good from evil, the things of God from those of the devil, for `discernment is the greatest of the virtues.' The acquisition of the virtues is a progressive and organic process: one virtue follows another. One depends on the other, one is born of the other: `Every virtue is the mother of the next.' Among the virtues there is not only an ontological order, but also a chronological one. The first among them is faith."

~St. Justin Popovich, Orthodox Faith and Life in Christ