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Faith vs Works

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by Theo102, Oct 11, 2018.

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  1. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

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    So are you insinuating it is works which saves, and not faith? The Bible is a fairly large body of text. I doubt this one line sums it up so neatly.
     
  2. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    Justice rewards good for good and evil for evil. In the Bible salvation isn't directly associated with works, but rather as a consequence of a relationship with Elohim.
     
  3. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

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    So are you then saying it is belief (faith) which saves?
     
  4. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    Where in scripture does James call Paul a vain man?
     
  5. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Please explain how it is possible to keep the Law without obeying it.
     
  6. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    No, beliefs can be true, false, or irrelevant. If there's no working relationship with deity then salvation isn't likely to happen. Such relationships typically involve acting on true and relevant belief or knowledge.
     
  7. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    James 2:20, documented in the OP

    Faith vs Works
     
  8. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    What is collectively called "law" has different forms in this context:

    Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
    Genesis 26:5

    While it's reasonable to think of מצות (commandments) as being obeyed, חקות are more descriptive of customs which are kept, and תורת (torah) is a more like teachings which are observed.

    Of these only torah is significant for the new covenant of Jeremiah 31:33
     
  9. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
    Janes 2:20


    No mention of James referring to the Apostle Paul as being vain here in
    James 2:20.


    James and Paul teach the same principle or law of faith.

    The obedience of faith.

    But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for theobedience of faith: Romans 16:26



    James teaches the exact same principle of faith.


    • Was not Abraham our father justifiedby works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

    Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
    Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
    For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:21-26


    The works mentioned in verse 21 is obedience.

    Not the works of the law.

    Not work that earns a wage.

    Not good works.


    The work of obedience.

    The obedience of faith.




    JLB
     
  10. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Exodus 16:28 And the Lord said to Moses, “How long will you refuse to keep my commandments and my laws?

    1 Kings 3:14 And if you will walk in my ways, keeping my statutes and my commandments, as your father David walked, then I will lengthen your days.”

    1 Kings 6:12 “Concerning this house that you are building, if you will walk in my statutes and obey my rules and keep all my commandments and walk in them, then I will establish my word with you, which I spoke to David your father.

    Leviticus 19:27 And you shall observe all my statutes and all my rules, and do them: I am the Lord.”

    Leviticus 26:3 “If you walk in my statutes and observe my commandments and do them

    As far as I can tell, you are using terms that are synonymous and are splitting hairs. When God has said to do something, then we should do it, and that is all that is being conveyed by "obey".
     
  11. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    You're ignoring the context of the OP #1
     
  12. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    My point is that the essential part of the relationship is doing what deity desires, not what is explicitly asked for. For example, paedophilia isn't explicitly forbidden, but would deity condone it?
     
  13. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    I’m actually discussing the OP.


    You are ignoring the fact that Paul and James taught the same principle of faith.


    There is no schism between James and Paul.


    JLB
     
  14. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    It could certainly be argued that paedophilia is prohibited under illicit sexual activity. In any case, I agree that there are more actions that are righteous or sinful than what the Bible explicitly prescribes or prohibits, but the Law has always been spiritual in that it has always been intended to teach us deeper spiritual principles of which the listed laws are just examples, and which are the character traits of God, such as holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control.

    If we correctly understand a spiritual principle, then we take actions that are examples of that principle in accordance with what the Law instructs. Likewise, if we have a character trait, then we will express it through our actions, so when God gives us His righteousness and declares us to be righteous, He is also declaring us to be someone who expresses His righteousness through our actions in accordance with His instructions for how to do that found in His Law.
     
  15. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    In what way do you think that the OP supports your position that Paul and James taught the same principle of faith?
     
  16. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    Not really. Illicit sexual activity is clearly described (eg incest, adultery, bestiality), but paedophilia isn't mentioned.
     
  17. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    I didn’t say the OP supports the truth that Paul and James taught the same principle of faith.


    But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
    Janes 2:20


    No mention of James referring to the Apostle Paul as being vain here in
    James 2:20.


    James and Paul teach the same principle or law of faith.

    The obedience of faith.

    But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for theobedience of faith: Romans 16:26



    James teaches the exact same principle of faith.


    • Was not Abraham our father justifiedby works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

    Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
    Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
    For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:21-26


    The works mentioned in verse 21 is obedience.

    Not the works of the law.

    Not work that earns a wage.

    Not good works.


    The work of obedience.

    The obedience of faith.




    JLB
     
  18. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    Straw man. My question was about your position, not the truth.

    You're attempting to assert equivalence between Paul's "obedience of faith" and James' justification by works. There's no equivalence because the context of Paul's obedience is in relation to his gospel and the scriptures of the prophets, and the prophets endorse the Torah (Isaiah 1:10, Jeremiah 6:19, Hosea 4:6) with Daniel 9:13 referring to the written Torah of Moses.

    Paul's gospel (Gal 3:10) describes a curse which follows from not doing "all things which are written in the book of the law", which is inconsistent with Daniel's reference to the Torah of Moses.

    You failed to mention the two verses from the OP which evidence Paul acting vainly.
     
  19. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    No, James is calling your interpretation of Paul a vain man.

    You, however, have gotten both James and Paul wrong.

    What JLB777 said before is correct:

    The obedience of faith.
     
  20. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    That's absurd, James could not have known about my interpretation.

    You haven't identified any error on my part.
     
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