Faith vs Works

[Soyeong]

For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
Titus 1:10

Paul was of the circumcision.

Paul was circumcised, but he was not of the circumcision group that he was opposing. However, that doesn't have anything to do with the fact that Titus 2:11-14 describes our salvation as being trained by grace to obey God.

Your proof text doesn't mention obedience, only faith. Obedience is rule based, faith is more about devotion.

He said that he would show his faith by his works and his works are obedience to God's Law, so i don't don't see how you can deny that he was speaking about obedience. If you think that I'm taking the verse out of context, but please explain why you think so. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law, so obedience to God is about having faith in Him to guide us in how to rightly live and living by faith is also associated with obedience. If we are devoted to God, then we will obey Him.

Paul is teaching his own gospel. The gospel of the kingdom began with the teaching of repentance, which involves knowledge of the law. When Paul says that "it is only the doers of the Law who will be justified.", it is within the context of Paul's gospel, which includes the resurrection from the dead (Romans 1:4). I've addressed problems with this doctrine here.

In Romans 15:18-19, Paul's Gospel message involved bringing the Gentiles to full obedience in word and in deed, so he was on the same page as Jesus in teaching repentance from our sins, so he didn't teach his own Gospel. If we have faith in God, then we will obey him and and if we have faith in God, then we will be justified, so all those who are justified are doers of the Law and vice versa, which is in accordance with the Gospel that Jesus taught.

While that's quite true, that obedience derives from our beliefs about the nature and intent of deity.

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of Elohim more than burnt offerings.
Hosea 6:6

But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew 9:13

But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Matthew 12:7

All of those verses support the importance of obedience and do not detract from the fact that Abraham believed God, so he obeyed God.

 

[cvanwey]

Galatians 3
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 4
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

James 2
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.
2 Corinthians 11:5

As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
2 Corinthians 11:10

Google states, when looking up 'herneneutic scholarship':

'the Association for Objective Hermeneutics (AGOH) was founded in Frankfurt am Main by scholars of various disciplines in the humanities and social sciences. Its goal is to provide all scholars who use the methodology of objective hermeneutics with a means of exchanging information.'

I've had deep discussions with several professed Hermeneutic scholars, in direct reference to the Bible. Some state 'faith and baptism', while others state 'works'. I have also listens to non-denominational pastors, whom state they have saved their fellow family members from hell, whom were previously Catholics. The list goes on, but is not necessary... Is the answer faith based, works based, or both? If it's both, how much of each is required? How do YOU know?

As I've stated elsewhere, if hermeneutics does not actually appear to be the 'objective standard' by which to conclude scripture, as indicated above, and millions have also claimed receiving direct instruction/revelation from God, many of which conflict with one another; by what actual objective standard may one use to assess/conclude such a simple question? (i.e.) faith vs works?

 

[Theo102]

by what actual objective standard may one use to assess/conclude such a simple question? (i.e.) faith vs works?

By way of logical proofs. Logos is translated as word, word -> Elohim (John 10:35, Matthew 9:13, Matthew 12:7, Hosea 6:6) Much of the knowledge of the gospels is hidden (for example by parable).

 

[Theo102]

the fact that Titus 2:11-14 describes our salvation as being trained by grace to obey God.

It's not a fact. Again your interpretation involves adding the idea of obedience when it's not present in the source text. There's a time and place for obedience, but organized religion typically uses the obedience of believers for political ends.

11 For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us, to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly and righteously and godly in this present world; 13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a people for his own possession, zealous of good works.

 

[Soyeong]

It's not a fact. Again your interpretation involves adding the idea of obedience when it's not present in the source text. There's a time and place for obedience, but organized religion typically uses the obedience of believers for political ends.

11 For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us, to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly and righteously and godly in this present world; 13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a people for his own possession, zealous of good works.

How does instructing us by grace to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, to live soberly and righteously and godly in this present world not involve obedience to God's instructions?

 

[Theo102]

How does instructing us by grace to deny ungodliness and worldly, to live soberly and righteously and godly in this present world not involve obedience to God's instructions?

It's not my job to make your argument for you. Do you see the word "obedience" in your source text?

 

[Soyeong]

It's not my job to make your argument for you. Do you see the word "obedience" in your source text?

It's your job to explain yourself in a way that makes sense. It does not make sense to me how you can deny that being instructed to do something does not involve obedience to those instructions.

 

[Theo102]

It's your job to explain yourself in a way that makes sense. It does not make sense to me how you can deny that being instructed to do something does not involve obedience to those instructions.

What instructions?

 

[Soyeong]

What instructions?

Instructions for how to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, to live soberly and righteously and godly in this present world.

 

[Theo102]

Instructions for how to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, to live soberly and righteously and godly in this present world.

How do you think that you should interpret that?

 

[Soyeong]

How do you think that you should interpret that?

If our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, then that straightforwardly means that we should by faith obey God's instructions for how to do what is godly.

 

[Theo102]

If our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, then that straightforwardly means that we should by faith obey God's instructions for how to do what is godly.

Do you have any reason to think that your salvation depends on being "trained by grace" in any meaningful way?

The point here is that Christianity typically interprets its source text selectively, so that the interpretation conforms with the political agenda of Christian leaders.

 

[Soyeong]

Do you have any reason to think that your salvation depends on being "trained by grace" in any meaningful way?

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age,

That's essentially what this verse says. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is defined as the transgression of God's Law (1 John 3:4), so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's Law is what our salvation from living in disobedience to God's Law looks like.

The point here is that Christianity typically interprets its source text selectively, so that the interpretation conforms with the political agenda of Christian leaders.

Please either make the case for this accusation or withdraw it. I do not think that I am interpreting the text selectively in order to push a political agenda of my leaders, so if you could make the case that I am, then I would be interested to find out about it. My goal is to correctly understand the Bible within the Jewish historical and cultural context in which it was originally written.

 

[Theo102]

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age,

That's essentially what this verse says. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is defined as the transgression of God's Law (1 John 3:4), so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's Law is what our salvation from living in disobedience to God's Law looks like.

The remedy for sin from Matthew 1:21 and 1 John 3:4 simply involves keeping the law, again you have added the idea of obedience when it isn't present in your source text.

The Pauline doctrine of obedience is illustrated by his letter to the Romans:

Let every soul be subject (ὑποτασσέσθω) unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Romans 13:1

ὑποτασσέσθω conveys the idea of obedience:

1. to arrange under, to subordinate
2. to subject, put in subjection
3. to subject one's self, obey
4. to submit to one's control
5. to yield to one's admonition or advice
6. to obey, be subject

Please either make the case for this accusation or withdraw it. I do not think that I am interpreting the text selectively in order to push a political agenda of my leaders, so if you could make the case that I am, then I would be interested to find out about it. My goal is to correctly understand the Bible within the Jewish historical and cultural context in which it was originally written.

I'm not blaming you directly, Pauline doctrine is accepted without question by Christianity. To understand the Jewish context you've got to be able to distinguish between Pharisees like Paul and the prophets.

The case for political bias goes back to Constantine, who provided the security context for much of the the settlement of Christian doctrine.

 

[JLB777]

Galatians 3
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 4
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

James 2
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.
2 Corinthians 11:5

As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
2 Corinthians 11:10

So what’s the point?

 

[Theo102]

So what’s the point?

The point point of the verses was to show how the faith vs works argument related to the schism between Paul and James.

 

[JLB777]

The point point of the verses was to show how the faith vs works argument related to the schism between Paul and James.

There is no schism between Paul and James.

They both teach the same principle of faith.

The obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26



James teaches the exact same principle of faith.

• Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:21-26


The works mentioned in verse 21 in obedience.

Not the works of the law.

Not work that earns a wage.

Not good works.


The work of obedience.

The obedience of faith.

JLB

 

[cvanwey]

The point point of the verses was to show how the faith vs works argument related to the schism between Paul and James.

So who's right?

 

[Theo102]

There is no schism between Paul and James.

The schism is evident from James calling Paul a "vain man"in relation to faith, works, and Abraham.

 

[Theo102]

So who's right?

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Revelation 22:12