Faith vs Works

[Theo102]

Galatians 3
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 4
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

James 2
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.
2 Corinthians 11:5

As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
2 Corinthians 11:10

 

[HTacianas]

Galatians 3
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 4
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

James 2
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.
2 Corinthians 11:5

As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
2 Corinthians 11:10

The idea that a Christian is justified by faith alone is not found in the history of Christianity. It is only a later doctrine adopted by some protestant groups based on a mis-reading of scripture, including one you quoted above, Galatians 3.

In reading:

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse

Many choose to believe that this means all works. But it does not. Properly read:

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse

The writer to the Colossians give examples of just what works of the law he was referring to:

Col 2:20
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Col 2:21
(Touch not; taste not; handle not;

Col 2:22
Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

He is talking about the works of the law Jews were required to keep in order to maintain their righteousness, in this case, their dietary laws. It is not those works of the law that determine our relationship with God. That's why Christianity abandoned those works of the law long ago.

James goes on to answer the question directly when he says:

Jas 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[Theo102]

The writer to the Colossians give examples of just what works of the law he was referring to:

But the Paul's doctrine of faith was to the Galatians, who would not have made that distinction.

Also, the Council of Jerusalem ruled that they abstain from pollutions of idols, which in context of the law of Moses would include the prohibition against eating food offered to idols. (1 Co 8:10, Revelation 2:14)

 

[HTacianas]

But the Paul's doctrine of faith was to the Galatians, who would not have made that distinction.

Also, the Council of Jerusalem ruled that they abstain from pollutions of idols, which in context of the law of Moses would include the prohibition against eating food offered to idols. (1 Co 8:10, Revelation 2:14)

The letters written to the several Churches were not their first exposure to Christianity. Paul, or someone else, had already been there and taught them all the "elementary principles".

Your mention of the Council of Jerusalem does not contain references to those same works of the law, but prohibits sin. Worshipping an idol or participating in a sacrifice to an idol would be a sin. Christianity has never abrogated the notion of sin, only those acts under the law of obedience necessary for righteousness.

 

[Theo102]

The letters written to the several Churches were not their first exposure to Christianity. Paul, or someone else, had already been there and taught them all the "elementary principles".

What "elementary principles" do you think would be relevant here?

Your mention of the Council of Jerusalem does not contain references to those same works of the law, but prohibits sin. Worshipping an idol or participating in a sacrifice to an idol would be a sin. Christianity has never abrogated the notion of sin, only those acts under the law of obedience necessary for righteousness.

They're the same because they both originate with the law of Moses.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1 John 3:4

 

[HTacianas]

What "elementary principles" do you think would be relevant here?


They're the same because they both originate with the law of Moses.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1 John 3:4

The writer to the Hebrews touches on elementary principles:

Heb 6:1
Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

Heb 6:2
of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment

The two we are speaking of are not the same, even though they originate in the law of Moses. You can see the rabbinical list of the 613 laws of Moses here:

Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

It contains a section on the dietary laws. Violating the dietary laws is not a sin, but renders a person ritually defiled. Christianity did not adopt those practices. It is our faith that keeps us from being defiled.

 

[com7fy8]

Also, Paul says we are not saved by "works of righteousness which we have done," in Titus 3:4-6, "but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit".

So, what we need mainly is how the Holy Spirit changes our nature to be more like God's love . . . so we are transformed more and more into the image of Jesus. Our works do not do this, but God in us does.

Even so, James does say there are works which justify us >

"You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (James 2:24)

But these works are not works of the law nor "works of righteousness which we have done". But you might read in the same chapter the examples of works which James is talking about, right while he is saying there are works which we need.

These are works of God's love. These are works which God in us has us doing, while He is effecting our nature with His renewing us to become how Jesus is > 1 John 4:17-18. And there are things the Bible plainly says we need to do, in order "that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation" > please consider Philippians 2:13-16.

And Hebrews 12:4-11 says we need to actively seek our Heavenly Father for His correction which changes us to "become partakers of His holiness" in His love's "peaceable fruit of righteousness".

Also >

"Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." (James 5:16)

I personally think that "healed" here means healed more together with God in His love so our character is not available to sinning and then suffering emotionally in the weakness of our sin problems. So, if this is correct, then we need mutual confession with mutual prayer for this "for one another".

There is "faith working through love," our Apostle Paul does say, in Galatians 5:6. And being justified means to be made just, or right. So, faith's works of love can help us to become right the way God's love in us is right > we exercise in God's love, by doing works of this love, so we are stronger and more healthy in Jesus.

If a child does no activities of love, how will that child develop? The child can have faith in his or her parents, but without wholesome activities of relating in love, the child can not benefit really right from trusting his or her parents. A child needs to do things with a person who knows how to relate in love, so the child can feed on that example of that loving and caring person. And, like this, we need to do things with God in us, so we feed on how God in us is > Ephesians 4:31-5:2.

So, I think this shows how Paul and James and John actually agree > Galatians 5:6, James 2:24, 1 John 4:17.

 

[Theo102]

The writer to the Hebrews touches on elementary principles

Why do you think that a letter to the Hebrews (Torah observant) would be relevant for the Galatians (non-Torah observant)? Also, what do you think the phrase "the foundation of repentance from dead works" means, in the context of the following verse?

For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name
Hebrews 6:10

The two we are speaking of are not the same, even though they originate in the law of Moses

What difference do you think is meaningful between them?

Violating the dietary laws is not a sin

Do you think that 1 John 3:4 isn't relevant here? If not, why not?

 

[Theo102]

So, what we need mainly is

How do you account for James' argument against Paul's doctrine?

 

[HTacianas]

Why do you think that a letter to the Hebrews (Torah observant) would be relevant for the Galatians (non-Torah observant)? Also, what do you think the phrase "the foundation of repentance from dead works" means, in the context of the following verse?

For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name
Hebrews 6:10


What difference do you think is meaningful between them?


Do you think that 1 John 3:4 isn't relevant here? If not, why not?

The letter to the Hebrews is relevant to the entire Church, because they had all been taught those same "elementary principles". That is the gospel all of the apostles taught to all Churches.

"Repentance from dead works" means to abstain from sin, whatever that sin may be. The difference between those two is that the works the writer is congratulating the Hebrews for is "ministering to the saints", meaning that they had taken them in and cared for them. That would be the opposite of "dead works".

 

[com7fy8]

How do you account for James' argument against Paul's doctrine?

In my post I have explained why I understand that James and Paul and John agree. I therefore do not think James is arguing against Paul.

But I do think that how people understand things can have them seeing James and Paul and John as being in disagreement.

For one example, ones think Paul means that any and all works can not do us good. But when Paul says we are not saved by works, he means works of our own ego and effort. But do we not need to repent? Is not repenting a work? It is something we do, isn't it? And ones say no works at all are needed; yet, the Bible says the preaching of the cross is the power of God to us who are saved. Preaching is a work, isn't it?? And others demand that a sinner say a prayer; a prayer is a work, isn't it???

But ones might do things they are told to do, but not get anywhere. It is what God does in us that matters.

 

[bling]

In my post I have explained why I understand that James and Paul and John agree. I therefore do not think James is arguing against Paul.

But I do think that how people understand things can have them seeing James and Paul and John as being in disagreement.

For one example, ones think Paul means that any and all works can not do us good. But when Paul says we are not saved by works, he means works of our own ego and effort. But do we not need to repent? Is not repenting a work? It is something we do, isn't it? And ones say no works at all are needed; yet, the Bible says the preaching of the cross is the power of God to us who are saved. Preaching is a work, isn't it?? And others demand that a sinner say a prayer; a prayer is a work, isn't it???

But ones might do things they are told to do, but not get anywhere. It is what God does in us that matters.

I think you might want to do a further study of how the Bible uses the word "work".
The pagans had "paid" worshippers running the temple so they 'worked" at the temple. The priestly tribe was given a portion of the income of all the rest of the tribes whether they did anything or not it was not contingent on anything. The priests were not paid to worship God, that sound totally offensive for God to have paid worshippers. Worship is never "work", so the priests on the sabbath fully observed the Sabbath rest since they were worshipping, so not working.
If you are "doing" stuff in obedience to God's commands (that can be helping others) you can offer up that obedience as worship to God, so it is not "work". We are to be in constant worship to God, obedient to God's commands, in this Jubilee age (Sabbath rest), so we should never be working.

 

[Theo102]

But when Paul says we are not saved by works, he means works of our own ego and effort.

There's nothing from the context that supports that.

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse" ~ Paul

If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them;
Then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.
And your threshing shall reach unto the vintage, and the vintage shall reach unto the sowing time: and ye shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.
And I will give peace in the land, and ye shall lie down, and none shall make you afraid: and I will rid evil beasts out of the land, neither shall the sword go through your land.
And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword.
And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.
For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you.
And ye shall eat old store, and bring forth the old because of the new.
And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
And I will walk among you, and will be your Elohim, and ye shall be my people.
Lev 26:3-12

 

[dzheremi]

"versus", no. It's better to say "and", or else you risk being in exactly these kinds of arguments that pit the Holy Bible against itself all for the benefit of some later cooked-up doctrines of some guy from Switzerland vs. some other guy from Germany or whatever in the 1500 or 1600s. That's way too late to be messing around with such basic concepts, as though they hadn't been clear before then.

I agree with St. James and I agree with St. Peter, as both quoted above, and I agree with all of the saints since the beginning, who have taught one thing: that we are as workers in the vineyard (of the 11th hour or not, it doesn't matter in the end), and also about what works actually are to be done (the good works without which faith is dead), and how they are to be done:

"Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen." (Hebrews 13:20-21)

That which is pleasing in His sight according to His will He makes us complete through. This is the synergy spoken of in partaking of the divine nature (as in 2 Peter 1) whereby those who do the will of God become one in union with Him. How is this possible if we are not supposed to do anything? And for those who are completely on the other side, how can we ever do these things of our own strength so as to 'earn' that which is given of God, as described above in Hebrews 13? It says that God will make you complete, not that you will make yourselves complete because you act rightly or whatever. Pelagianism is also bunk.

The key is to be in the middle, cooperating with God.

 

[Theo102]

The letter to the Hebrews is relevant to the entire Church, because they had all been taught those same "elementary principles". That is the gospel all of the apostles taught to all Churches.

You're simply restating your position without showing any supporting argument.

"Repentance from dead works" means to abstain from sin, whatever that sin may be.

So you think that "repentance from dead works" doesn't involve actual repentance?

Previously you argued that "... the Council of Jerusalem does not contain references to those same works of the law [that were mentioned by Paul], but prohibits sin.". This is a false distinction because of 1 John 3:4

Then you acknowledged that the CoJ and Paul were both speaking of law that originated with the law of Moses, but maintained that there was a difference.

The difference between those two is that the works the writer is congratulating the Hebrews for is "ministering to the saints", meaning that they had taken them in and cared for them. That would be the opposite of "dead works".

You're presenting a secular interpretation of Hebrews 6:10, i.e. omitting the name of deity.

Your position seems to be that the difference is that secular works are real works but works that honour deity are dead works. Perhaps you could clarify if this isn't the case.

 

[Theo102]

"versus", no. It's better to say "and"

It's versus because of James argument against Paul's doctrine from the OP.

 

[Soyeong]

Galatians 3
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 4
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

James 2
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.
2 Corinthians 11:5

As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
2 Corinthians 11:10

According to Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His Law. According to Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do things that describe what God's Law was given to do. According to Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience that faith requires. According to 2 Peter 3:17-18, growing in grace is contrasted with being taken away with the error of Lawless men. According to John 1:16-17, grace was added upon grace, so the grace of Christ was added upon the grace of the Law. According to Jude 1:4, the ungodly pervert God's grace into license for immorality. According to Strong's, "grace" is defined as "the divine influence upon the heart and its reflection in the life" and when God's will is reflected in our lives, it takes the form of obedience to His Law (Psalm 40:8), so grace is the power of God to overcome Lawlessness in our lives and it is by grace that God teaches us to walk in His ways in accordance with His Law.

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law, so obedience to God's instructions is about having faith in Him to guide us in how to rightly live. Living by faith is always associated with having a willingness to obey God's instructions, such as with the examples of saving faith listed in Hebrews 11, whereas disobedience to God's instructions is referred to as breaking faith, such as in Numbers 5:6. In James 2:17-18, he said that faith without works is dead and that that he would show his faith by his works, so obedience to God's Law is not about adding our own efforts on top of our faith, but rather it is what our faith looks like, which is why Paul said in Romans 2:13 that it is only the doers of the Law who will be justified. So we are not saved by our obedience to the Law, but rather we have received grace to bring about the obedience that faith requires (Romans 1:5), so the same grace and faith by which we are saved also requires our obedience, which is why Paul said in Ephesians 2:8-10 that we have been saved by grace through faith, not by works, but rather we have been made creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works.

So while it is true that Abraham believed God's promise and was counted as righteous, it is also true that Abraham believed God's promise, so he didn't hesitate to obey His command to offer Isaac, reasoning that God would raise him from the dead in order to keep His promise. Our beliefs are expressed by our actions and our actions reveal our beliefs, so again obedience is what faith looks like.

 

[Theo102]

According to Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His Law.

There's nothing about YHWH teaching David obedience in that verse. David's appeal for Torah was a remedy for dishonouring the truth. David is describing YHWH's bestowing of Torah as an act of grace.

Remove from me the way of lying: and grant me thy law graciously.
Psalms 119:29

In James 2:17-18, he said that faith without works is dead and that that he would show his faith by his works, so obedience to God's Law is not about adding our own efforts on top of our faith,

Non sequitur. James is talking about faith, not obedience.

but rather it is what our faith looks like, which is why Paul said in Romans 2:13 that it is only the doers of the Law who will be justified.

Paul's reasons for endorsing the law should be taken in context of his ownership of the teaching:

In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Romans 2:16

reasoning that God would raise him from the dead in order to keep His promise

According to the text is was about fear of Elohim, not obedience.

"for now I know that thou fearest Elohim, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."
Genesis 22:12

 

[Soyeong]

There's nothing about YHWH teaching David obedience in that verse. David's appeal for Torah was a remedy for dishonouring the truth. David is describing YHWH's bestowing of Torah as an act of grace.

Remove from me the way of lying: and grant me thy law graciously.
Psalms 119:29

Psalms 119:29 (ESV) Put false ways far from me and graciously teach me your law!

The word "Torah" means "instruction" so the purpose of God giving the Torah is to teach us how to rightly live, and this is how God is gracious to us. Furthermore, Titus 2:11-14 also describes our salvation as being trained by grace to obey God.

Non sequitur. James is talking about faith, not obedience.

James 2:17-18 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

James was speaking about both faith and obedience.

Paul's reasons for endorsing the law should be taken in context of his ownership of the teaching:

In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Romans 2:16

I agree that the context should be considered and can influence how to correctly interpret a verses, but I do not see why you think Romans 2:16 changes what I said about 2:13.

According to the text is was about fear of Elohim, not obedience.

"for now I know that thou fearest Elohim, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."
Genesis 22:12

Our fear of God leads us to obey Him.

Hebrews 11:17-19 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, 18 of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 19 He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back.

 

[Theo102]

Furthermore, Titus 2:11-14 also describes our salvation as being trained by grace to obey God.

For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
Titus 1:10

Paul was of the circumcision.

James was speaking about both faith and obedience.

Your proof text doesn't mention obedience, only faith. Obedience is rule based, faith is more about devotion.

I do not see why you think Romans 2:16 changes what I said about 2:13.

Paul is teaching his own gospel. The gospel of the kingdom began with the teaching of repentance, which involves knowledge of the law. When Paul says that "it is only the doers of the Law who will be justified.", it is within the context of Paul's gospel, which includes the resurrection from the dead (Romans 1:4). I've addressed problems with this doctrine here.

Our fear of God leads us to obey Him.

While that's quite true, that obedience derives from our beliefs about the nature and intent of deity.

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of Elohim more than burnt offerings.
Hosea 6:6

But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew 9:13

But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Matthew 12:7