Faith Plus Works

justbyfaith said:

I suppose that I forgive you for teaching false doctrine; but does God?

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Jesus says,

Strange, how you like to attack me with your words and yet not address any of my points either Biblically or morally.

justbyfaith said:

Definitely take all of these scriptures into account. Those who are born again are new creatures in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17).

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I don't think you are taking those scriptures into account because they conflict with your belief. You believe the new nature ALWAYS makes a born again believer to persevere in every single case or circumstance.

But this is not what those Scriptures teach.
Those verses say:


None of these things sounds like what you have been proposing to me. Yet, they are taken from things written plainly in Scripture.

The fruit of the Spirit is based in faith alone in Jesus Christ.

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The Holy Spirit is given to those who obey God.


We are actually told to WALK in the Spirit and we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

You said:

If anyone truly believes in Christ, they will persevere; they will be students of the Bible and will heed every warning that is in the word and will obey Jesus' command to persevere. Though I myself am beginning to grow weary, and covet the prayers of those of you who have that as a ministry.

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It's what I have been saying all along. Anyone who truly believes will live holy and obey Christ's commandments. No works or holiness, and they are not exhibiting a true faith. But this is not what you teach because your profile says that you are a justified sinner; And you essentially implied that hypothetically a person can still commit sin and still be saved while in that sin (Even though they will not live an excessive sinful lifestyle). But how do you not see that as a violation of Jude 1:4? There were certain individuals who turned God's grace into a license for immorality. What is the difference morally speaking between justifying one sin under God's grace vs. justifying many sins (with a sinful lifestyle)? Who decides what is a sinful lifestyle?

Jason0047 said:

1. Be hardened by sin.

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That is not something that I desire to do: I think that on that one I will submit to God and resist the devil.

Jason0047 said:

The Holy Spirit is given to those who obey God.

"And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." (Acts of the Apostles 5:32).

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Does God give them the Holy Spirit because they obey Him or does He give them the Holy Spirit so that they will be able to obey Him? Personally, I don't think that anyone can truly obey God apart from the influence and indwelling of the Holy Spirit. So the Holy Spirit comes first, and obedience second. Therefore we receive the Holy Spirit through faith, not through what we do. I would suggest doing an exposition of Romans 5:1-5.

Jason0047 said:

It's what I have been saying all along. Anyone who truly believes will live holy and obey Christ's commandments. No works or holiness, and they are not exhibiting a true faith. But this is not what you teach because your profile says that you are a justified sinner; And you essentially implied that hypothetically a person can still commit sin and still be saved while in that sin (Even though they will not live an excessive sinful lifestyle). But how do you not see that as a violation of Jude 1:4?

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This is a difficult concept to try to explain, but I will try to do it for you. In order to be redeemed, we must admit that we are sinners before a holy God. If we stop admitting our sinful state before Him but begin to justify ourselves, we lose our justification by Him. Now if you admit that you are a sinner perpetually, then He is able to work within you by pinpointing specific sins that are in your life so that He can truly work within you the process of sanctification. But if you deny that you are in a sinful state, then you would harden your heart any time that He begins to pinpoint your sin. You might even blaspheme the Holy Spirit, calling His conviction the condemnation of the devil or something. Therefore He refrains from showing you your specific sins because you would not be open to such a thing; and therefore your spiritual growth (the sanctification process) is stunted.

Now I do not in the whole of what I teach, teach anyone that they cannot have victory over sin. Once you are forgiven, victory will come. But to be forgiven, a part of your prayer must be, "I acknowledge my transgressions; and my sin is ever before me." (Psalms 51:3).

You must also be as the publican and not as the Pharisee in the parable (Luke 18:9-14) if you are going to truly be justified before the Lord.

justbyfaith said:

I suppose that I forgive you for teaching false doctrine; but does God?

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Well, if what you taught was correct, then you would give me a word by word commentary on the texts that I presented instead of insulting me. You would also explain to me how your belief is moral and good, as well. Sure, you can take isolated verses out of the Bible to make your belief work, but you have to do so at the expense of so many other verses. In fact, this is not my first rodeo discussing this topic before. I have argued against this belief for many years and it is the same ole story.

Ask yourself: What was the lie that led to Adam and Eve's fall in the garden?

It was the lie of saying, "You shall not die"

Satan wanted Adam and Eve to disobey God's command (sin) and think, "You shall not die."

Eternal Security says that you can also sin (break God's laws) and you will not die.

On top of that, ask yourself the question: What were the problems that Jesus had with the Pharisees? Was it because they did not have a belief alone on Jesus like what you are teaching? No. Oh, yes, Jesus wanted them to trust in Him as their Savior, but our Lord was also even more concerned about their actions. You say that the Spirit will change a person to a point where they do not need to worry about enduring or overcoming in their salvation (Despite Scripture saying that). Yet, Jesus spoke in a way that not only told them to be born again and to abide in the Spirit, but Jesus spoke in a way that they need to take action in doing good themselves, too. It's not just one or the other. God is not going to do the good work for you. Jesus said things like, if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). He said if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). He said if you look upon a woman in lust, your whole body can be cast into hell fire. John says if you hate your brother, no eternal life abides in you (1 John 3:15).

You need to explain verses like these in order to prove that what you say is correct.

justbyfaith said:

That is not something that I desire to do: I think that on that one I will submit to God and resist the devil.

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We are told to exhort one another so as not to be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. This kind of statement does not make any sense in light of your belief because you say that you are a justified sinner. How can you exhort the brethren on being deceived by sin if you are justifying sin by saying you are justified sinner?

Does God give them the Holy Spirit because they obey Him or does He give them the Holy Spirit so that they will be able to obey Him?

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Why are you doubting what it says/? Read Acts of the Apostles 5:32 again for yourself. The same holds true for God the Father and Jesus, too. If a person will keep His words, then they will make their abode (home) with that person.

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." (John 14:23).

Personally, I don't think that anyone can truly obey God apart from the influence and indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

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I believe in Prevenient Grace. This means that man cannot come to God without His drawing, but that God draws all men unto Himself whereby He gives man the free will choice to accept Him or reject Him. After a person has been born again spiritually by accepting Jesus Christ as their Savior, they need to then continue to abide in the Lord. They still have free will to either walk with the Lord or to turn back. The choice to follow God is a daily thing and God does not re-write a person's mind to follow Him. A person has to choose for themselves if they want to continually follow God or not. For the Bible says, Choose this day in whom ye will serve.

justbyfaith said:

So the Holy Spirit comes first, and obedience second.

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But how can you obey or build on a foundation of disobedience? You say that we are justified sinners (because of your profile states that). This suggests that you are always sinning and you are saved (justified) as a sinner.

You said:

Therefore we receive the Holy Spirit through faith, not through what we do. I would suggest doing an exposition of Romans 5:1-5.

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James says he will show his faith by his works (James 2:18).
The Bible talks about a thing called "Works of faith" (Which is not the same thing as the "Works of the Law" i.e. the whole of the 613 laws as a part of the Law of Moses - contractually speaking).
James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
So works play an integral role or part of one's faith.
It is in fact what makes up a true faith or not.
For if Noah decided to not take action to build an Ark, he would have perished.
A belief alone in God would not have saved him.

As for Romans 5:1-5:

Let's look at the rest of Romans.


So you have to LIVE by faith as a part of the gospel.
How do you live out your faith? See Hebrews 11.
It talks about how faith had led men of God to take action.
For faith without works is dead.

So we see here that the gospel leads to the ultimate end goal of making the Gentiles OBEDIENT by word and deed. Yet, this is not possible in your belief because you are defeated before you even start by saying you are a justified sinner (disobedience) as your foundation.

Jason0047 said:

Well, if what you taught was correct, then you would give me a word by word commentary on the texts that I presented instead of insulting me.

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My experience tells me that when I put all the work and energy into doing such things, my work usually just gets buried because new threads come in and push my work to the bottom. So I have decided to save energy and use simpler statements to declare my theology.

Jason0047 said:

As for Romans 5:1-5:

Let's look at the rest of Romans.

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Okay, you looked at "the rest of Romans". Now look at the passage I suggested you look at (but by now you have already forgotten the context in which I wanted you to study it).

justbyfaith said:

My experience tells me that when I put all the work and energy into doing such things, my work usually just gets buried because new threads come in and push my work to the bottom. So I have decided to save energy and use simpler statements to declare my theology.

Okay, you looked at "the rest of Romans". Now look at the passage I suggested you look at (but by now you have already forgotten the context in which I wanted you to study it).

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Yes, I fully believe Romans 5:1-5 is true. But this passage is not in conflict with the verses I posted that destroys or demolishes your false interpretation on Romans 5:1-5. Explain to me the new verses I provided that destroys your belief.

As for what Romans 5:1-5 says, It is talking about "Initial salvatiion" (Verse 2: "we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand,"). So we come to God's grace by faith and we even to have a continued belief in Jesus as our Savior. No doubt about it. But James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). James says a faith without works is dead. So a person need works, too. If not, their faith is dead or inoperative and it cannot access the saving grace of God. Romans 5:1-5 says that we glory in tribulations. Do you see believers who justify a sin and still be saved type belief glorying in tribulations? Christians are persecuted because they stand up for what is good and right. The world hates us because we are not of the world because we do not run with the world and it's wickedness.

"And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness" (1 John 5:19).

Romans 5:1-5 also says that the love of God is also shed abroad in our hearts. If this is the case, then a person will obey God. For Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).

"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love" (John 15:10).

justbyfaith said:

Here is the deal. Salvation is by a living faith alone. 2 Corinthians 5:17 is the reason why good works always follow after a living faith if there is opportunity.

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Of course. Also, there will always be opportunities ; while some doors will be closed, others will be open.

paul becke said:

Of course. Also, there will always be opportunities ; while some doors will be closed, others will be open.

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Most likely; except in the case in point of the thief on the Cross and other situations like it (deathbed conversions) in which case a living faith alone (apart from works, Romans 4:6) will save.

Jason0047 said:

Romans 5:1-5 also says that the love of God is also shed abroad in our hearts. If this is the case, then a person will obey God. For Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).

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That was a major part of my point. That the Holy Spirit comes in through faith and that we obey because the Holy Spirit has shed abroad His love in our hearts. Not that we obey in order to obtain the Holy Spirit (and His love) but that we obtain the Holy Spirit (and His love) through faith; and that we have the power to obey the Lord because of His indwelling.

Also, I will be one of the first ones to point out, when that side of the coin needs to be presented, that such verses as Romans 13:8-10, 1 John 5:3, and 2 John 1:6 are essential to our understanding. These verses show that if there is no obedience, you can determine that the person does not have a genuine faith; because real faith obtains the love of Christ.

But we must rightly divide the word. It is only faithful and true that the transformation that comes to a believer (2 Corinthians 5:17) does not come about in us because we have given to the poor or done some other good work; but through faith alone in Jesus Christ. He is the way and the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father except through Him.

And when we try to earn our way in through what we do, we are not entering in through the door. We are attempting to earn wages before God (Romans 4:4; see also Romans 6:23, Isaiah 64:6).

justbyfaith said:

That was a major part of my point. That the Holy Spirit comes in through faith and that we obey because the Holy Spirit has shed abroad His love in our hearts. Not that we obey in order to obtain the Holy Spirit (and His love) but that we obtain the Holy Spirit (and His love) through faith; and that we have the power to obey the Lord because of His indwelling.

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Quote the verse to me and see if that is what it says.
Also, I have already given you another testimony in Scripture that you are ignoring, too. The same is true for God the Father and Jesus living in us, as well (See again: John 14:23).

You said:

Also, I will be one of the first ones to point out, when that side of the coin needs to be presented, that such verses as Romans 13:8-10, 1 John 5:3, and 2 John 1:6 are essential to our understanding. These verses show that if there is no obedience, you can determine that the person does not have a genuine faith; because real faith obtains the love of Christ.

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But now you are preaching a double message. How exactly does obedience to God play part in your saying you are a justified sinner (Which is a part of your profile in each of your posts)? That is kind of like a man named Rick who says he is a justified murderer and yet on the other hand he says that if we murder we do not have a genuine faith. This sounds like he is disqualifying himself.

You said:

But we must rightly divide the word. It is only faithful and true that the transformation that comes to a believer (2 Corinthians 5:17) does not come about in us because we have given to the poor or done some other good work; but through faith alone in Jesus Christ. He is the way and the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father except through Him.

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I am not discounting how we must first come to Christ for salvation (by seeking forgiveness with Him) before we can obey. A person who obeys God's commands is the person that God abides in or makes His abode with. It's what John 14:23 says. 1 John 2:4 says that the person who says they know the Lord and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him. Seems like your belief is easily disqualified just by looking at a few verses in the Bible plainly.

You said:

And when we try to earn our way in through what we do, we are not entering in through the door. We are attempting to earn wages before God (Romans 4:4; see also Romans 6:23, Isaiah 64:6.

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Again, Paul was fighting against "Works Alone Salvationism" that did not include God's grace. You have taken Paul's teaching to an extreme whereby works of faith are not included in the faith when in reality Paul was talking about the works of the Law (i.e. the Old Law - the Law of Moses).

justbyfaith said:

Most likely; except in the case in point of the thief on the Cross and other situations like it (deathbed conversions) in which case a living faith alone (apart from works, Romans 4:6) will save.

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Yes, we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. Most of the commands in the New Testament given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers are for believers who live out their faith. Not all commands are for all people. For Jesus says in regards to the laws on divorce (involving marriage), that not everyone can receive such a command. There are eunuchs who are not able to receive such a command (See Matthew 19:9-12). Jesus says, "He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."

In fact, I can prove to you that we are saved by a obeying a particular commandment or Law.

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ,..." (1 John 3:23).

Do you believe that believing in Jesus is necessary for salvation?

If so, then you are in obedience to a commandment of God.
This means you are saved by law keeping.

What about works?
Are you saved by works?
You will probably say... "no."

But Jesus says,
"This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." (John 6:29).

So do you believe in doing the WORK of God that says you have to believe in Jesus to be saved?

If so, then you believe that this particular work.... saves.

Jason0047 said:

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ,..." (1 John 3:23).

Do you believe that believing in Jesus is necessary for salvation?

If so, then you are in obedience to a commandment of God.
This means you are saved by law keeping.

What about works?
Are you saved by works?
You will probably say... "no."

But Jesus says,
"This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." (John 6:29).

So do you believe in doing the WORK of God that says you have to believe in Jesus to be saved?

If so, then you believe that this particular work.... saves.

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In all of the scriptures you have mentioned, God is telling those who are hard-hearted and stubborn, and who will insist on being saved by their works, that the only work that will or ever can save them is faith in Jesus Christ.

Now consider Romans 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

He justifies the ungodly person. Did you get that? He declares us righteous when we are not righteous!

What this means for the true believer is that my new identity in Christ is that I am righteous even when I blow it... The next step after realizing this, of course, is to begin to live according to my new identity in Christ (1 John 3:7). As I continue to walk in the understanding that He has declared me righteous and that this is who I am in Christ, messing up from time to time is not going to affect my identity adversely. Because it is in understanding my identity in Christ that I become able to live according to it. As I continue to walk in this identity that cannot be affected by the enemy, I begin to live more and more like a man who is righteous even as Christ is righteous.

Also, in Galatians 2:20 it becomes clear that the practical aspect of my righteousness has to do with Him living His life in me and through me.

I am a sinner; but He is righteous. Therefore inasmuch as it is not me living my life but Christ living His life in me and through me, my personal walk will be one of holiness in the practical sense; while I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, there dwells no good thing (Romans 7:18).

Jason0047 said:

Quote the verse to me and see if that is what it says.

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So I would ask you if your doctrine is that we can obey the Lord apart from the Holy Spirit?

justbyfaith said:

So I would ask you if your doctrine is that we can obey the Lord apart from the Holy Spirit?

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Are you not aware that men had received the gospel (obeyed) and yet they did not receive the Holy Spirit yet?

Jason0047 said:

Yes, we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. Most of the commands in the New Testament given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers are for believers who live out their faith. Not all commands are for all people. For Jesus says in regards to the laws on divorce (involving marriage), that not everyone can receive such a command. There are eunuchs who are not able to receive such a command (See Matthew 19:9-12). Jesus says, "He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."

In fact, I can prove to you that we are saved by a obeying a particular commandment or Law.

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ,..." (1 John 3:23).

Do you believe that believing in Jesus is necessary for salvation?

If so, then you are in obedience to a commandment of God.
This means you are saved by law keeping.

What about works?
Are you saved by works?
You will probably say... "no."

But Jesus says,
"This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." (John 6:29).

So do you believe in doing the WORK of God that says you have to believe in Jesus to be saved?

If so, then you believe that this particular work.... saves.

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I believe you may be taking John 6:29 out of context. Jesus is answering the question “what work does God want from us?”

“They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:28-29‬

Jesus is answering their question by saying this is the work God wants from you that you believe in the One He has sent.

Jason0047 said:

Are you not aware that men had received the gospel (obeyed) and yet they did not receive the Holy Spirit yet?

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If you are referring to the men in Acts 19 it is not certain that they had not received the Spirit. They did not know about the Spirit because they hadn’t heard about Him. They could’ve already received the guidance of the Spirit and didn’t know it. We know if we have received the Spirit because we know what to look for. Those men didn’t. Yes after they were baptized Paul laid hands on them and they received gifts of the Spirit but they could’ve already received guidance from the Spirit before receiving those gifts. The Holy Spirit had already done work in the apostles before Jesus was crucified and before they received the gifts on Pentecost.

“He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:17‬

Jason0047 said:

Are you not aware that men had received the gospel (obeyed) and yet they did not receive the Holy Spirit yet?

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There is a drawing work that the Holy Spirit does before regeneration happens.

justbyfaith said:

In all of the scriptures you have mentioned, God is telling those who are hard-hearted and stubborn, and who will insist on being saved by their works, that the only work that will or ever can save them is faith in Jesus Christ.

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Which verses?

You said:

Now consider Romans 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

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Keep reading.

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" (Romans 6:1-2).

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1).

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

So the part in Romans 4:5 that says "justifieth the ungodly" in reference to the believer's past old life. It's talking about how to initially get right with God.

"By whom also we have access by faith into this grace" (Romans 5:2).

2 "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, " (Ephesians 2:2-3).

"And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness." (1 John 5:19).

As for the part in Romans 4:5 that says, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him... his faith is counted for righteousness."

Again, this is talking about initial salvation.
You did not have to do a work in order to come to God and be initially saved.
Paul is fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" as the alternative here.

Please, just please read Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24. Then read Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, and Galatians 6:15 and it will then be clear in the context of which Paul speaks.

You said:

He justifies the ungodly person. Did you get that? He declares us righteous when we are not righteous!

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This is turning God's grace into a license for immorality!!!
Do you not get that?
Please read Jude 1:4 again.
Why on Earth do you think the believers who thought they did wonderful works in his name were told to depart from Jesus? Was it because of their wonderful works? No. It's because they worked iniquity (sin) (See Matthew 7:23).

The context is not greasy grace or a belief alone, either.

This is the context!

26 "And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."
(Matthew 7:26-27).