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Faith Movement

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by Annabel Lee, Jun 6, 2002.

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  1. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    :eek: Have I just stepped into a full on argument hear :help:

    Hey :D just for the record , I`ll try not to get to take sides hear :hug:

    Great subject though. :)

    Celtic.
     
  2. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

    +1,306
    United States
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    Hey Celtic,

    There really is no argument with those who are not reading others and their own post.

    It's just that one of the posters keeps denying he's saying things but does not bother to look back. Even when we post the numbers for him.

    I've enjoyed your input.  Keep it commin'  :wave:
     
  3. Jewel

    Jewel New Member

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    Hi all, I'm new to the forum. I know that there are certain adherents to the faith movement that even go as far as to deny the blood of Jesus, and it's as if God must adhere to what you want just because you have the faith to believe He will supply what you want. The thing about a lot of these mongrel movements is that they do not rightly divide the word of God. People that do not know their bible can be duped into believing anything.

    Someone brought up a good example of Paul praying thrice and not recieving what he requested. If we look at the example of the death of Lazarus we see that:
    So God might be using an illness or reversal of fortune to bring us to the truth of something or work in our lives that someone might believe in the Living God. :pink:
     
  4. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    Hi Jewel,
    Welcome to the forum , This is a good point and my posts can be made to look like I am subscribing to this Idea but I don’t.
    I also agree that the faith movement does have those that misunderstand the concept and twist it to there own folly.

    I see god as my father. He loves me like his child.

    A good example is, if you’re a parent, this will be easy to understand.

    I feel that my children have certain rights, i.e., food. If they ever ask me for food, I say yes, if they ask me for their "needs" I say yes 100% Of the time. Now, when they ask for what they "Want”, I love them and will do back flips to make what they want happen for them so they can be happy and have fun. If they ask me if the can smoke pot, of course I am going to say no, then I would probably take away allot more freedom from them if that was there attitude towards my love for them. If my children are honest and I trust them, anything they ask will be according to my will because it is by will to bless my children. If I trust them, I will let them do anything but if I don’t, their freedom is restricted and monitored.

    I think that if that is how my love for my children is motivated, how much more does God want to bless his children and give those he trusts anything they ask for.

    I am not saying that we dictate what we get because we believe, I am saying that it is gods will to bless us and if we obey god and he trusts us, it would be his will to do what ever we ask, because through us, he is glorified.

    Without faith we cannot please god or receive from god. It isn’t because he won’t give it most of the time but rather because we wont receive it.

    If the church learned to put "faith in god”, they would believe that it is his will to do our will just as it is my will to do my children’s will.

    If my children want to go to the pool on Sunday instead of church and I want them to go to church and I want to go to church myself , I will think on it and usually in the end, take the children to the pool instead. Not because that is what I want but because it is what they want. Why would god be any different?

    There are times were I would restrict there actions but I would never restrict there recovery from sickness if I could help. I don’t believe god put anything on Paul. Maybe gods grace was sufficient for Paul. I am not to shore why faith filled men like Paul and even Billy graham are not healed but I do now from personal experience that I have been healed at different times and if faith is active or if god imparts the faith to believe, then it will happen. This is not only with sickness but also anything, even a nice car if you like. How many fathers bye there 17 yr old their first car??????

    Peace

    Celtic
     
  5. Jewel

    Jewel New Member

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    Hello Celtic,

    Where did you first learn about the Faith Movement? :pink:

    P.S. I only read a few posts on the first page and I don't think I really remember reading anything you posted, so I'm not even commenting on anything you said.
     
  6. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    I never realized it was called by a name until lately Jewel. I wasn’t shore if you had read my posts or not but they were defiantly one sided in the light of what you had said. So I though it important that I correct myself and not fall into the category of those that miss god in the whole faith thing.

    As for the faith movement, well, it’s kind of a long story. In short, my mom was a medium, I was a medium, something went terribly wrong and I met what I knew was god.
    3 yrs later, living by faith from that experience, I became a Christian and believed in Jesus Christ. I became awear that the same god that led me to Jesus was the Holy Ghost. From there I have had numerous experiences that I don’t talk about because people think it presumptuous and allot of people think "I am mad".

    So, from there, I learned to live by faith through the teachings of Jesus and the bible.

    It is very hard to tell someone like me that the faith movement is hogwash because I live by faith.

    As for the faith movement being a movement, has anyone noticed that there is no human board or head, there is only ministries and pastors, they all work in similar fashion and yet there is no human board of directors or cardinals or any human that is in any type of control of the whole movement.

    That is god to me.

    I assume that this is what the faith movement is.

    Peace

    Celtic :)
     
  7. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "I feel that my children have certain rights, i.e., food. "

    Here is the crux of the matter. People of the faith movement think their faith is greater then God. :)

    "There are times were I would restrict there actions but I would never restrict there recovery from sickness if I could help"

    celtic..this is an important statement. God does allow and cause sickness sometimes. He does this for his glory and to further someone in their walk with him or towards him. This is what the faith movement denies. I would recommend the book counterfit revival.

    "As for the faith movement being a movement, has anyone noticed that there is no human board or head, there is only ministries and pastors, they all work in similar fashion and yet there is no human board of directors or cardinals or any human that is in any type of control of the whole movement.

    That is god to me.
    "

    Hmm..I might be inclined to agree if they didn't preach things that went against the bible. :) I also would say "God" not god...I think ya just made a type-o though ;)
     
  8. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    I said,” I feel that my children have certain rights, i.e., food. "

    then you said,

    I sorta lost ya hear mate. can ya run that one by me again :scratch:

    Yea :) I would denie your statement hear personally too. :)

    hey Louis , I would recommend that you study the revivals from history.

    umm , now this I can relate to. I agree with you hear but then again , who does agree on what the bible says :confused:

    The thing about the faith movement that I like , regardless of doctrinal issues , is that they are the ones drawing the lost to Jesus Christ for there salvation.
    They also seem to be more committed to Jesus as there lord than other Christian sects. They evangelize with there whole heart were as other sects hardly evangelize at all.
    The Holy ghost is among them , that is for shore , while I go to other Christian sects and anyone would think it was a grave yard.

    So , while I don’t subscribe to the doctrines on a general basis of the faith movement , I defiantly respect the evangelizing work they do in Jesus name were I have seen hundred of people set free from a hard way of life (drugs , prostitution and the likes) to follow the way of Jesus Christ there lord. I have seen over and over , these people fix there life up and get on with it after meeting Jesus through the faith movement.

    There isn’t any other Christian sect that I know of that even comes near the success in the harvest field as the faith movement , in the last 10 yrs..

    Why??? Because they believe GOD , and the work that Christ did , they do also.

    I recon there pretty good as far as Christians go , but hey louis , that`s just my opinion.

    Peace

    Celtic.
     
  9. kingskid

    kingskid Kid of the Most High

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    The question is do they have faith in the power of faith or faith in the power of God?

    Jesus was big on the word faith.

    I did a search on the word and found 16 scriptures in Matthew, 6 in Mark, 18 in Luke, but only 1 in John.

    These two are ones I have truly been contemplating since the serch.

    Lu:7:50: And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
    Lu:18:42: And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
     
  10. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    Hey Kingskid, I think the reason that John has only one mention of the word faith is because he uses the word "believed" instead. Try doing a search on the word "believe".

    Your results will be interesting.

    Peace

    celtic. :)
     
  11. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    I find it interesting that the leaders of these faith movement based groups fail to take note of a most important salient fact. The problem (if we look carefully at the scriptures) is not with the person who fails to be healed, but with the person who lays hands on them for the healing. The problem is not with the person who has financial difficulties, it is with the person who "proclaims" an end to those difficulties.

    The Biblical record is clear enough in stating that God will attend to our every need. BUT - a person comes to a preacher seeking to claim those promises, and the preacher lays hands on him thinking that any blame for failure to appropriate the promises lies with the petitioner. IF IT ISN'T DONE, THE PREACHER HAS ACTED WITHOUT AUTHORITY. The putative failure of the petitioner, even if it is justified, is irrelevant. A person with authority to act in this fashion is expected to take the proper steps to prevent raising false hopes.
     
  12. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

    +1,306
    United States
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    Hey Celtic,

    Good thought processing on why you believe what you believe.

    I too am "not" part of the faith movement.  But, I believe what I've read in the Bible.  It's true, there are a lot of wacky people out there who have misunderstood what they've heard and gone way off the deep end.  They claim things God does not promise.

    I've found too that people are basically the same no matter what they believe.  If their just new getting into it they don't understand everything yet and tend to say things they don't fully understand yet and others get all up in arms over it, mainly because they did not ask question and then listen to the answers.

    I've found that those so against "faith" have not bothered to really listen to it's teachers and they go off "half cocked" reporting things that are not taught.  They have not bothered to do what the scripture says about handling dissagreement with your brother.  I guess they justify their actions by claiming the one they dissagree with is not their brother. Hmm!  

    I have not seen one group yet that has everything perfectly correct with the Bible. But some still continue to "throw the baby out with the bathwater".  Offering no grace, except to see things their way, to their fellow brothers and sisters.

    Any and all of the faith teachers I've listened to do have faith in God.  Faith that He keeps His Word.  If He says He'll supply their needs, He'll supply their needs.  They don't know how but they know He will.  They also know that if in the process they go around grumbling they may be the  cause of the need lingering.  We see that with the children of Israel and their 40 years in the desert.

    The main thrust is salvation and then training in how to live for God.  Salvation is not all there is to God's grace.  I've seen many fall away from the faith because they thought that God did not care for them.  They struggled financially, physically, emotionally.  Though ultimately, they are responsible for their lack of knowledge, does not mean those who do have the knowledge should not share it.

    In Proverbs it says "the man who answers a matter without hearing, it is a shame and a folly to him".  There is a whole ministry that started out as a gift to the body of Christ but is now biting and devouring fellow believers.  Right in the front covers of their books they say (I'm paraphrasing) "we tried to contact these people for responce regarding their false teaching but they would not talk to us".  So, in their own words this ministry is stating that they've gone ahead anyway, written the book, without hearing the matter.  They've disobeyed scripture and are so proud of it. Hmm!

    Anyway, for Kingskid and Jewell, when you get the time, if you have not yet been able to. . .read through all the posts on this thread.  Points you brought up have been addressed.  Any other questions I would be more than happy to consider or answer. Reasoning it out with God and your Bible though should be what you do first.  Don't go by anothers opinion, except  God's.  If He says it, it's the truth.

    I want the whole Truth, and nothing but the whole Truth. I don't claim to know everything but I've known the Lord since I was a child (about 3 yrs old), and I'm 48 now.  I've grown to know Him very well.  I speak out of intimate knowledge and experience of Him.  And I plan to keep getting to know Him for eternity.

    In His Grip,

    PS I'm on vacation this next week you won't get a response from me until I get back.  

      

      

      

      

      

     
     
  13. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    Celtic Crusader:

    quote: "As for the faith movement being a movement, has anyone noticed that there is no human board or head, there is only ministries and pastors, they all work in similar fashion and yet there is no human board of directors or cardinals or any human that is in any type of control of the whole movement. "

    hey that's an interesting and insigthful remark! The board is the Holy Spirit.

    I enjoyed reading your post and just want to give the big picture:

    The NT church we read of in the Bible was glorious. Miracles were happening all over and the Christians then preach with real power!

    Then came the dark ages of the church, where false doctrines were introduced and the church began to lose that power. people were prevented from reading the Bibles and a works salvation church grew.

    But things are being restored coming full circle as we near the last days.

    First was the Pentecostal movt, where the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and tongues were reintroduced. Gifts of the Holy Spirit, healings etc (Voice of healing movt) started coming back to the church. Then came the faith movt, followed by the prosperity movt. Slowly, the full impact of the gospel is being restored back to the church. And I believe one of the last moves of the Holy Spirit will be a restoration of salvation by grace -- back to pure grace and righteousness by faith.

    You see, Christ is coming back for a glorious Church, not a half-dead one (when you pick up your bride, you'd expect her to be radiant and adored with jewels (gifts)). Yes the world is getting darker but the church gets brighter and more powerful.
     
  14. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    I find these faith ministers pretty faith filled to Quaffer , The first thing I look for in a good pastor or teacher is there “life”. I notice a lot of these Faith preachers have good families , were there children grow up and become full time missioners for god as well. I look at how well there children turned out and there children’s children. I notice in most cases that the popular teachers have good Christian families.

    Now , someone like that , I want to listen to , because they have the secrets of life.

    These are the faith preachers in the church that are criticized , judged and condemned because they preach what they do, while living a blessed life. These teachers with there Christian families overcome sickness in there families , they have wealth and prosperity were ever they turn. God makes them the head and not the tail , the lender and not the borrower.

    I have had god bless me in these ways so I am sticking to what I know works. “Faith in God.”

    As for the grumbling and moaning , I have a theory that goes like this;

    We live by grace through faith.

    Faith and grace work hand in hand. We believe that god is going to bless our day and the things we under take. Through that “belief” , he provides the grace.

    Now , if we complain and moan , were is faith? it is gone.
    So , without faith are we awear of grace. “no”. so , as soon as we start winging and complaining , we step into doubt and faith becomes inactive so the grace we felt on what ever we were doing for the day has gone with the faith because we are no longer believing that god is on our side and blessing us. So , faith brings grace on our life but winging and complaining is only the production of doubt and that stumbles grace.

    In short , once we winge and moan , we no longer have faith that god is helping us , blessing us, so the belief that he is helping us has gone , so were then is the presence of grace????

    Now , the other thing that will tear gods grace out from underneath us is , once we start thinking that it is us and not gods grace that brings us so much success , pride enters and were there is pride , grace can not function , because god resists the proud.

    So , we maintain gods grace on our life through faith but winging and moaning and pride cut across gods grace so we don’t live in the promise of health and prosperity.



    Hey Andrew , I like your rundown on recent church restoration. Very interesting concept. Very true. :pray:

    Celtic :)
     
  15. Jewel

    Jewel New Member

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    Louis,

    If you have noticed there is very little scripture being used to back up the faith movement.

    First we need to look at what Paul says again
    If I were to follow the urgings of some in the faith movement, wouldn't take a second look at Paul. I would only look for an example to those that have no problems. Isaiah 53:5 has been used to confirm the fact by those in the FM that they are guarenteed a healing or a new car or whatever their heart desires. In actuallity Isaiah 53:5
    is our assurance that to take the Lord Jesus Christ as our personal Saviour is to receive not only His person but His payment for our sin. The purchase price of His own precious blood having been paid at Calvary, we are redeemed from the curse of the law. Galatians 3:13 There are many who cry loud and long that healing is in the atonement. I couldn't agree more but what these shallow students and half-truth teachers fail to mention is when this healing will take place. When we got saved did the thorns and briars cease to grow in our garden? When we treuste Christ did physical labor become easy? When we were born again did we stop sweating while mowing the lawn on a hot summer day? I believe any honest person would have to answer no.

    When Jesus went to the cross He wore the curse, the thorns, of Genesis 3 upon His Holy brow. He died to redeem the spiritual creation from the second death, nd He died to redeem the physical creation from the results of the fall.When the Lord was confronted by satan in the wilderness we read
    When Jesus walked this earth the kingdoms of the world belonged to satan and were at his disposal. Lucifer made this calim and was not rebuked by the Lord Jesus because he spoke the truth. As a result of Adam's transgression satan had truly become the god of this eorls 2Co.4:4. When the Lord Jesus rose from the dead, having paid for sin and having been made a curse Gal.3:3, He declared:
    If that is the truth why do we still have thorns, briars, sweat and dust? It is because the purchase price has been paid but the actual redemption, the act of taking what was purchased unto Himself, has not yet taken place. This will not occur until the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ at the close of the great tribulation.

    Here's another case
    Epaphroditus was a brother in Christ, a companion in lbor and one who fought the good fight right aong with Paul. He was on the ront lines of the Lord's army. He was not only engaged in a spritual warfare but also was a trusted messenger of the local church and ministered to the wants of other servants of God. He was so worn out in body and mind from all the exetion of his Christian service that he was sick. Infact he was so sick that he was about to die. I can't imagaine anyone going to this mighty Christians and and suggest to him that his lack of faith had resulted in his physical condition!

    Paul had another good friend and fellow labourer who he mentions as being a companion during his ministry (Acts 20 and 21). His name was Trophimus. Paul said, but Paul said
    There is no explaining the fact that four faithful servants of God were sick and wither could not get healed or did no get healed, if the doctrine of healing in the atonement as taught by charismatics and adherents to the faith movement is a valid Biblical truth.

    :idea: Thank you Jesus, your grace is suffiecient for me.

    This post doesn't mean that I don't believe Jesus will not heal physical infirmities but you really expect people to believe that every sickness will be healed and every material desire will be answered when the scriptures say the opposite?
     
  16. kingskid

    kingskid Kid of the Most High

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    Wow Celtic!

    85 scriptures in John alone with the word believe.

    Of course those are all not the Lord's words. My search won't break out the Lord's believes from the rest and I don't have the time right now...so it is left as is. 85!
     
  17. kingskid

    kingskid Kid of the Most High

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    I don't believe it was the Lord's fault in Matthew 13 where it says He did not many works. Of course.... I am sure Jesus did not lay hands on the ones in unbelief. This is very thought provoking.

    M't:13:58: And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
     
  18. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    I havn`t read the whole thread yet but up to this point , I haven`t seen much scripture from those against the faith movement. So far , they have been extreamly unconvincing???

    I thaught it was worth re-posting this for you Jewel because you feel that the faith movement hasn`t given any scripture. This with other scriptures were presented a few pages ago before you came into the discusion. It took me all of 5 minutes to find them , If I did a scriptual study , I could present heaps of situations and issues that will prove that the faith movement is a biblical movement. I am shore you feel you could prove other wise :) Isn`t it strange how we all come to diffrent biblical understandings Jewel :scratch:


    Hear is some scriptures that say that without "BELIEVING”, we can’t receive. SO "according to your faith be it unto you". I wont bother explaining them to say what I want them to mean because they speak for themselves.Maybe you could explain some of these before I explain what I see in the scriptures you have just braught up.

    Mark 16
    16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
    17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
    18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
    19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
    20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.


    John 14
    11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
    12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
    13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
    14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.


    Luke 8:50
    But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.

    Matthew 21:22
    And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.


    Matthew 8:13
    And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

    Mark 9:23
    Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
    And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.


    Mark 11:23
    For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
    Mark 11:24
    Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.


    John 3:16
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    John 3:18
    He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    John 4:53
    So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.




    That was on just one word , "believe".

    Should I do an hour study , Wow , I could come up with heaps of situations and issues in the bible , I shorely don`t need to doi that do I , we all know that the whole bible is all about faith don`t we :scratch:

    peace :)

    Celtic
     
  19. Jewel

    Jewel New Member

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    Celtic, Jesus gave many instructions to his disciples and how they were to communicate with the "Lost Sheep of Israel."
    The above passage is what the church is to earnestly look to, not seek signs, or miracles. Jesus also said that when we pray we are to ask that God's will be done. I do not deny that God can answer prayer but He will do it according to what HE SEES FIT TO ANSWER, not because of the fact that you had enough faith to believe He can.

    I have personally stopped a spiritual attack on myself by saying "I rebuke and bind you in the name of Jesus." So I do know that the Lord works in our lives. I believe if you read my last post with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, you would see the truth.

    The passage in Mark 16 is the five fold sign of an apostle. These were proofs that Jesus gave to twelve Jewish apostles to confirm that they were speaking His words. :kiss:
     
  20. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "I sorta lost ya hear mate. can ya run that one by me again"

    People think if they have faith, God will do it no matter what. That is simply not true. When it comes to God you have NO rights at all because you're not God.

    "hey Louis , I would recommend that you study the revivals from history. "

    I have thanks. another book you can read is christianity in crisis. Be sure to get the tape that goes along with it.

    "There isn’t any other Christian sect that I know of that even comes near the success in the harvest field as the faith movement , in the last 10 yrs.. "

    So? and I'd disagree with you on that. That's beside the pt though. The amount of converts doesn't make it right. The faith movement is quite unbiblical about a great many things. AGain, read christianity in crisis and counterfit revival. You'll understand then.

    "Because they believe GOD , and the work that Christ did , they do also. "

    Good, so does Satan. that's how he works if you haven't noticed, he says about 10 things and 9 of them are absolutly true. Its that last thing that twists the message and makes it wrong. That's exactly what the faith movement does.
     
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