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Mandy

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Ok. We are born sinner and are under the curse of sin, which is spiritual and physical death. Now obviously we still die. Jesus did not die to "heal" our diseases. He died that we might live. Our bodies have yet to be redeemed, so they are still fallen. People have diseases and illness etc because of this, not because of satan. Yes I believe satan can and does cause physical ailments, but he doesn't cause them all. Look at what Jesus said to His disciples when they questioned about the blind man, they asked Him who sinned? Jesus said it was for the glory of God that he be born that way. We are NOT promised health and wealth! God cares much more about our eternal and spiritual state than our physical one. We are promised provision, not earthly riches! I think it very sad that people actually tell others that they are poor or sick or disabled because they lack faith and/or are in sin!
 
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Mandy

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Originally posted by LilyLamb


I'm glad you added this ... cause I do believe the Lord has healed me ... I have yet to see the healing, but I know He is faithful and when the time is right I will see the manifestation of my healing ... even if it means waiting til I see heaven's gates or the return of my Saviour.

One afternoon after church I stayed behind to pray (I was a teenager) and as I prayed I confessed that I knew that God "could" heal me and felt a tingling from my head to my feet and a rush of peace like I've never experienced before or since ... I knew that God had "touched" me ... I haven't seen evidence of the healing, but I know it's just a matter of time. I also know that had the Lord manifested the healing back then, I would not know the things I know today and I would not be the person I am today - my sufferings have helped to make me who I am - I have turned to the Lord many times and had I not had this "broken leg" (see story below) then I would not have let my Shepherd be in a position to carry me and teach me His love, His patience, His timing, His grace and His mercy.

Sometimes a sheep wanders alittle to much and for it's on good a Shepherd will break the sheep's leg to keep it from straying. He will then bind the leg and while it is healing He will carry the sheep, singing to it, loving it and holding it until the leg is completely healed - at that point the sheep "knows" the Shepherd and His love and will not wander ... obviously the Lord is still working in me as He conforms me to the image of my Saviour and I so He carries me ......

Amen!! Now that is an awesome testimony!:)
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Originally posted by Mandy
Ok. We are born sinner and are under the curse of sin, which is spiritual and physical death. Now obviously we still die. Jesus did not die to "heal" our diseases. He died that we might live. Our bodies have yet to be redeemed, so they are still fallen. People have diseases and illness etc because of this, not because of satan. Yes I believe satan can and does cause physical ailments, but he doesn't cause them all. Look at what Jesus said to His disciples when they questioned about the blind man, they asked Him who sinned? Jesus said it was for the glory of God that he be born that way. We are NOT promised health and wealth! God cares much more about our eternal and spiritual state than our physical one. We are promised provision, not earthly riches! I think it very sad that people actually tell others that they are poor or sick or disabled because they lack faith and/or are in sin!

And I believe Mandy, that is basically what I was saying.

With exception to satan not being the initiater of all sickness. . . We would not have the knowledge of sickness (evil) if we had not fallen. Remember, they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Before the fall, they had knowledge of God only. He never intended us to know the difference between good and evil.

Yes, God does care MOST about our spiritual condition but that does not mean He ignores us physically. For a father to say, "Hey kid, I gave ya life, I'll make sure ya don't die, but that's all I'm gonna do", would make him a bad father. Our Heavenly Father is good.

Everything else you said, I absoutly agree with and said so in the post.

Oh, and looking at your profile, I see you attend Calvary in Costa Mesa. Good church. I used to go there with friends every Saturday night as a teenager for the free concerts. Do they still do that? It was a great ministry.
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Originally posted by LilyLamb


I'm glad you added this ... cause I do believe the Lord has healed me ... I have yet to see the healing, but I know He is faithful and when the time is right I will see the manifestation of my healing ... even if it means waiting til I see heaven's gates or the return of my Saviour.

One afternoon after church I stayed behind to pray (I was a teenager) and as I prayed I confessed that I knew that God "could" heal me and felt a tingling from my head to my feet and a rush of peace like I've never experienced before or since ... I knew that God had "touched" me ... I haven't seen evidence of the healing, but I know it's just a matter of time. I also know that had the Lord manifested the healing back then, I would not know the things I know today and I would not be the person I am today - my sufferings have helped to make me who I am - I have turned to the Lord many times and had I not had this "broken leg" (see story below) then I would not have let my Shepherd be in a position to carry me and teach me His love, His patience, His timing, His grace and His mercy.

Sometimes a sheep wanders alittle to much and for it's on good a Shepherd will break the sheep's leg to keep it from straying. He will then bind the leg and while it is healing He will carry the sheep, singing to it, loving it and holding it until the leg is completely healed - at that point the sheep "knows" the Shepherd and His love and will not wander ... obviously the Lord is still working in me as He conforms me to the image of my Saviour and so He carries me ......


:hug: LilyLamb,

YES! I cannot say that loud enough or long enough. That's exactly a point being made.

Blessings, :angel:

Just an add on: I understand what you're saying about the shepherd breaking the leg of the lamb but I'm quite uncomfortable with how that would be correlated with God giving us physical infirmaties. I asked the Lord to help me understand, since He is The Good Shepherd and this is what He showed me . . .Generally, broken legs heal naturally, but that does not happen with disease. When the shepherd broke the legs of the lamb he made sure that no disease set in that would kill the lamb, otherwise, the lesson would have been pointless. His point was to get their trust, not to maim.
 
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TruelightUK

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My thanks to Andrew and Quaffer for making an honest attempt at dealing with the points I raised, rather than simply crying 'straw man' to avoid admitting that there is no clear cut answer!

Off the top of my head there are probably three references in Paul's letters to people who - apparently - did not receive a 'miraculous' divine healing (at least not immediately) - and also reference, I believe, to Paul himself going through sickness. Yet some faith preachers would maintain that any faith-filled, righteous-living Christian 'ought' to live totally free of disease - and thus heap condemnation on the 99.9% of us who have to admit that this is not our experience. You guys here may not do it, but I can tell you I've heard it from more than one pulpit - and even more so from well-meaning enthusiasts in the pews! (And it has to be said there are a few very condescending remarks sprinkled through this thread!) But I don't read it in Scripture. And, as in the case of Timothy, I see a distinct lack of the conventional 'faith response' when sickness is encountered of 'rebuke the devil', 'confess Isaiah 53', 'never let a negative confession undermine your faith', 'don't go to the doctor, or God will take that as a sign of doubting His power and willingness to heal' etc. etc. Truly some - not all - faith preachers are 'so spiritually minded' (in their opinion!) as to have totally lost contact with reality, thus becoming 'no earthly good' - or worse, irresponsible in the crazy behaviour they foster in their listeners.

Not to mention the hypocrisy of some - I had a Pastor who totally undermined anyone who went to the doctor as 'faithless' 'spiritual failures' - yet was later revealed to have been receiving medical treatment himself for a recurring gastric ulcer over a number of years!

But there again, as with most things in the church world, such abuses can obscure some very real and positive principles - let's avoid the temptation to write the whole thing off because of a few fanatical crackpots and learn to eat the hay while spitting out the sticks!

Anthony
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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TruelightUK,

Just a note before I leave work for the day,


I belive I can speak for Andrew and Hobart that none of us intended to demean anyone.

Sometimes when human emotions are involved feelings are easily hurt. Sorta like the husband who comes home to a spotless house and asks his wife, "so, what did you do all day?" The question is asked in innocense but the wife is worn and tired and the moment becomes explosive.

From my first post I believe I was attacked. I clearly laid out all the scripture and was very patient in re-answering things I had already answered. But what I got in return was accusations of "false prophet", "false teacher", etc.

In my understanding, a real false prophet is going to hell. So in my estimation of the accusations I was also being condemed to hell. It's very discouraging to hear that from a fellow believer.

When I first began hearing teaching on faith I also had a lot of misunderstanding. But out of respect for the teacher as a fellow believer I approached them and asked if they meant what I thought I was hearing. In being able to talk it over with them I was able to understand. I thank God I did because it has brought a lot of freedom to my life.

We must learn to be gracious with each other. Afterall, we are on the same side. :bow:

Grace and peace to ya, goodnight.
 
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Andrew

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"Sometimes a sheep wanders alittle to much and for it's on good a Shepherd will break the sheep's leg to keep it from straying."

Lily, dont know how to put this lightly but this is really nonsense. My Pastor when he was younger, was taught this exact same words in his former church. that brought fear - that God chastises with accidents.

He and a couple of church leaders went to see a church friend who had been involved in a very serious car accident. Everyone in the car began to say, "Wow, God must be teaching him some important lesson, since he nearly lost his life! I wonder what big sin he committed." Can u see the foolishness there?

Not too long ago, he went to England -- farmstay with his family. There were some sheep there and he casually asked the shepherd, out of curiosity: "Hey, when your sheep wander off, do you break its legs to discipline them!" The shepherd gave him a real disgusted look! I believe the sheep were just as disgusted. And I can just picture the shepherd picking up his sheep and running away from my crazy pastor! And we think that of Daddy God?

Listen, God did not break your leg. You need to repent of that (ie change your mind/attitude abt that). The Bible is clear: Satan comes to steal kill and destroy. He has stolen your ability to walk normally, killed some cells in that leg (if he cld have killed u he wld have done it), and destroyed some parts of the bones. Jesus came to gave you abundant life, and being cripple aint part of it.

This thing about God teaching us a lesson thru accidents/disease. think about it: many Christians have died from cancer. So what was the Godly lesson that was so important that it cost them so much suffering to themselves and loved ones, and even cost them their savings and life! Hey they died in pain. Which means they couldnt live on to learn from their Godly lesson, if there was any. Some suffer for many years, does that mean they are slow learners?!

The Bible says clearly in Hebrews 12 that when God chastises us, its for our own good and we live to enjoy the benefits. we dont die from it.

Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

sure does not say you die from it.

BTW chastise in the Greek means to "child train". I wonder which parent here burns his child's hands when he's naughty to teach him not to play with matches. I wonder which parent here injects cancer cells into his little girl's throat when she says the wrong things. I wonder which parent here breaks his kid's leg when he runs around too much. And I wonder who has killed his kid to discipline him. And we think our Abba God is like that.
 
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LouisBooth

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Since satan is the one who comes to kill, steal, and destroy (John 10:10)I believe it is safe to assume that anything that brings weakness to our bodies or our spirits has begun with him. Statements like that holbert (made by quaf) tell me that people under this docterine believe that all sickness comes from Satan. This is not true. God sends sickness and allows it to happen. It is not because we are less faithful. Not all sickness is from Satan, some of it is from God. He uses EVERYTHING to further his plan, including sickness.


"Well then rip those pages off your Bible since you believe it's addressed only to Tim. "

/me laughs out loud

whatever andrew, you're just not making any sence at all now. According to your logic none of Paul's letters should be used at all since they were written to specific audeiences and peoples. It is clear that this was written to timothy specifically but the teachings can be applied to us. What this tells us is that christians that have more faith then you still get sick and when they are not healed that doesn't mean they are not faithful enough. It just means they are still sick, nothing more nothing less.

Holbert "If you can't and won't believe God wants to heal, then of course you wont have faith to receive healing" another statement that proves my case. You may not believe faith is greater then God but its clear andrew does. God sometimes allows and wants people to be sick, christian and nonchristian alike. Its to further his plan. Believe it not God says no lots of times.

"That's pure nonsense. If you really believe such heresy"

Said in reference to my statement of "God lets people go through sickness for his glory and sometime to teach them something. "

Its not heresy at all, its very biblical. Job for example was allowed to be sick to further God's plan for him. Paul was allowed to be sick to further God's plan for him. My friend is allowed to be sick to further God's plan for him. God doesn't always physically heal because by saying no it makes them trust God all the more.

"So, you practise an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth? "

Yes in the way Christ told me to practice it. Its call do unto others and you would have them do unto you. its pro-active. It also is here "love others". God put that law there to be a pro-active thing. Its something you clearly don't understand. Paul talks about it many many times, something you also seemed to have missed andrew.

"It is sin to tell others that God wants us that way. "

So you beileve God doesn't want anyone anywhere to be sick, diseased or physically die? Then why does he allow it..?
 
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Andrew

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"God sends sickness and allows it to happen...Not all sickness is from Satan, some of it is from God. "

Pure heresy again. So Jesus was annointed to undo the works of God. So i guess you dont go to doctors or take medicine -- just in case you are going against God's will. So I guess you dont pray for the sick, lest you go against God's will. So I guess you've told your sick friend, "Hey God did that for you." So when you evangelise, I guess you tell the sinner, Hey wanna be a Christian, you might just get cancer from my loving God.

quote: "It is clear that this was written to timothy specifically but the teachings can be applied to us. "

That's what I said. Are you reading posts carefully or just skimming thru and jumping to conclusions?

"Paul was allowed to be sick to further God's plan for him."

From what I know, God says that " 11* For I know the plans I have for you, says the LORD, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope." God may permit sickness, but he doesnt author it. He may turn an ugly situation into a good one but he is not the author of ugliness.

"I guess you don't realize that the healiing that she might be talking about is AFTER you physically die huh?"

that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard! THE WHOLE POINT OF HEALING IS SO YOU DONT DIE! What's the point of getting healed when you're in heaven? Picture this: A doc tells his patient: "There's only one hope left for you to get healed, but I'd have to kill you first!"

Louis, I cant believe you are actually saying and believing in some of the things you've said!
 
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SavedByGrace3

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"Sometimes a sheep wanders alittle to much and for it's on good a Shepherd will break the sheep's leg to keep it from straying."

I am not seeing the logic in what is being said, but have heard this concept many times. I have to say that as a father of four, I never broke one of my children's legs to prevent them from wandering away(and they did like to wander!). I did hold on to their hands, protect them in various ways like hiring sitters, building fences, child guard gates at the top of stairs etc... But never physical violence against them. They did suffer multitudes of bumps, bruises, cuts, and even a couple of broken bones as they did wander and grow.

I recall when I was small my parents telling me not to play in the street. I did not listen and so while riding my bike in the street one day got banged up pretty good by a car. Did my parents do that to me? No! But I learned to not play in the road the hard way! If I had listened to them it would not have had happened. But in no way was it their will, design, or plan for me to be hit by a car. If they had broken my leg to keep me out of the road, that would have taught me to stay away from my parents!

 If God broke the legs of everyone who wandered away, the world would be full of hobbled people. But the image of the Eternal Almighty God of heaven, surrounded by singing angels and the multitudes of praisers, reaching down into the life of some poor sinner (or saint) and breaking a leg is just to Monty Python for me. If you imagine that God has broken your leg (or whatever) as some learning experience, then get on with it! Learn whatever (?) it is you think He wants you to learn, and then heal up. If you are a wandering lamb then stop wandering! (Remember now those of you who claim we are heaping condemnation on sick people, this wandering-lamb=leg-breaking is one of your theories, not ours!) Even that little lamb had it's leg heal and lived on. He did not die. He did not live the rest of his life with a broken leg. Strange is it not... all the people who imagine that God is "teaching" them something with sickness and disease can never tell you what He is teaching them! Either God is not a very good teacher(there is none better!), or the sick person is really rebellious and unteachable(I do not believe is the case), or the whole concept is baloney.

What about the people who die in this "teaching" process? What did they learn?
hmmm?

The devil and cars brake people's legs... not God or parents.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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"His point was to get their trust, not to maim."

I guess you don't realize that the healing that she might be talking about is AFTER you physically die huh? Not before.


Say what?

Please tell me you are not saying God heals dead bodies? Nothing is more unhealed than being dead. Please tell me that God does not rid our lives of sickness by killing us: "Jesus went about doing good and killing all who were oppressed by the devil."

Hmmmm...

This is getting way to weird for me!
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Originally posted by LilyLamb


Sometimes a sheep wanders alittle to much and for it's on good a Shepherd will break the sheep's leg to keep it from straying. He will then bind the leg and while it is healing He will carry the sheep, singing to it, loving it and holding it until the leg is completely healed - at that point the sheep "knows" the Shepherd and His love and will not wander 

 

 

Hey all, 

I have heard this story many times but until now never challenged it.

Does anyone know the origin and can it be proven as true?  I'm searching the internet but have found nothing yet.  I read the book "A Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23" many years ago and don't remember if this type of disipline was used in his shepherding days.

Please, if anyone knows, share it with us.

Thanks,  :D
 
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TruelightUK

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Sounds to me like one of those 'urban myths' that abound - or do I mean'rural'!?! Sounds to me like a highly dubious rationalisation of abusive practices in the church - "leave my congregation and God will strike you with sickness, blight your career and scatter your children"! - enough threats and curses and those guys won't dare wander and I'll keep their tithes lining my pockets! (Ooops, that was a different thread!?!)

Anthony
 
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Mandy

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I think a perfect example is Jacob.  God did touch his hip for a reason and did not heal him.  I think some times physical infirmities or diseases can be a result of sin.

I think for the most part, we are prone to disease and illness because our physical bodies have not been redeemed and will not be redeemed until the resurrection or the rapture.

 
 
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LilyLamb

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I'm not going to respond to this thread anymore - I have peace about what God is doing in my life and I'm not gonna pester Him to manifest my healing in "my" time ... I'm ready and waiting ... the timing is His ...

I read about the Shepherd and sheep story in Kay Arthur's book "To Know Him By Name" during a time when I was really tired of my infirmities and ready to give up on life ... that story sustained me and kept me going ... if you choose to not believe it (I'm sure such a well-known author would not put "nonsense" into her books) then that's fine, don't ... but I cling to the peace that God has given me as a result of that story and the truth that remains when He tells me to be still and wait ...

For you to tell me to "get on with the learning" is rude and uncalled for ... learning is a life-long event and we are daily being transformed into the image of our Saviour ... I have yet to see anyone learn anything overnight ...

all the people who imagine that God is "teaching" them something with sickness and disease can never tell you what He is teaching them


I already said what He is teaching me in my post ... added to that is humilty, empathy, and the gift of comforting others with the comfort He has given me.

 
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Originally posted by Mandy
I think a perfect example is Jacob.  God did touch his hip for a reason and did not heal him.  I think some times physical infirmities or diseases can be a result of sin.

A hip out of joint is a far cry from a broken leg.  Now, I'm not a doctor but I think that a hip out of joint can be easily popped back?  Does anyone here know for sure?

Scripture says that Jacob limped the next day but it does not say he limped for the rest of his life.  If it does, please, show me where it is.

 

Originally posted by Mandy
I think some times physical infirmities or diseases can be a result of sin.


According to Deut 28, it was always due to sin.  God said, if you obey you will have blessings and no curses.  If you disobey, you will have curses.

I'm not asking you to question scriptures, I'm asking you to question the stories you've been told to back up doctrine you've been taught.

I have a suspision that it's a religious legend that was created to go with that picture we always see of Jesus carrying the lamb.

If there really is documentation for this behavior on the sheperds part I'd like to know.  We cannot keep spreading a story that may not be true.

Thanks,   

  

 :pink:

 

Please do not jump on the point I made of Deut.  If you read all my post you'll know that I'm not saying that all sickness is due to sin.:holy:
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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LilyLamb,

I'm sorry that you feel you must leave.  I find your perception of your situation fairly balanced.  You believe God has healed you and now you're waiting for the manifestation. 

The reason I question the lamb story is because I've heard it since I was a child.  But I've heard a lot of "good", "incouraging" religious stories that sometimes do not go along totally with what I believe scripture to say.  I just do not believe that God disabled you.  I do believe He's given you His grace to get you through.  You have such a sweet spirit, that is from Him too.

I question the story because I seek for truth.  If the story is true then I want to know so that I can adjust my thinking.  In the Bible I do not see such an activity on the behalf of the shepherd.  If it is there, please show me.  I'm not trying to be argumentive, I really want to know.

Sincerely and in His Grip,  

God Bless you, :bow:
 
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SavedByGrace3

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 :scratch: I think we are skirting the real issues in these discussions (including the forums about healing and prosperity), and are not really addressing the topics where the real differences are. We kind of hint at them here and there, but never actually get into the meat of it.  Having been into faith for over 25 years, I believe that this is the case.

Things like:

  •  what is the nature and will of God, and
  •  how should we read and interpret scripture, and
  •  what the gospel really is.

Most of our disagreements actually stem from these deeper differences. I would like to perhaps address these differences in this forum, if you think they are within the topic at hand. Perhaps Mandy and Louis as moderators can help determine that.

LilyLamb, I hope you remain. Someone said that if something bothers you, then that is a tender spot that you should deal with. :idea::idea: Just a thought.   

  
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Hobart,

 

Perhaps you could start a new thread.  I think this one has gotten very thin.:angel:

Your thought was good.  I know God has pushed His finger into many of my tender spots.   :priest:

It did not always feel good but none the less changed my life.

 :D

 

 

 
 
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