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Faith Movement

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by Annabel Lee, Jun 6, 2002.

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  1. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    Yes Jesus heals, but His main purpose for healing people was not simply just heal people, but also to show His power.  Had He walked around only stating He was the Christ, without any miracles, would anyone have believed Him at all?
    What is the main teaching of the NT?  Is it health and prosperity?  The thing is that many do not see is that when Jesus said to ask anything in His name, He did not mean wealth and such, but those things that are according to the will of God, not the will of man.

     
     
  2. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "Insisting that death is a form of healing or that we shld wait for the rapture to be healed, which may not even happen in this lifetime. "

    Why not? Christ purposefully let people die THEN raised them..Again, your healing might be when you recieve your imperishable body.

    "You seem to be so bitterly sore about the faith movt, healing, prosperity etc, sometimes I wonder if there's something else that's causing all this bitterness and anger, that's causing you not to even read posts carefully and just jumping to your preconceived notions.
    "

    Yup, its called the false teaching of the faith movement. I don't like false teachers out there saying things that are unbiblical and perverting the word of God.
     
  3. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    quote:"Why not? Christ purposefully let people die THEN raised them..Again, your healing might be when you recieve your imperishable body. "

    In the Bible

    ¥ "They shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover" (Mark)

    ¥ "Is anyone sick among you? Let him call for the elders...annoint him with oil...and the prayer of faith shall save him...." (James)

    Not in the Bible

    ¥ They shall lay hands on the sick, and help them die to get healed. (sounds like euthanasia/mercy killing).

    ¥ Is any one among you sick? Let him wait for the rapture, in the meantime, bear with it. (sounds like a sin of omission)

    so guess who's the false teacher? :)
     
  4. mtucker

    mtucker Grand Poo-Bah

    46
    +2
    Christian
    Mandy:
    "Yes Jesus heals, but His main purpose for healing people was not simply just heal people, but also to show His power.  Had He walked around only stating He was the Christ, without any miracles, would anyone have believed Him at all?"

    If "proving His power" was all He was trying to do, is healing the best way? Why didn't He instead command the moon to disappear? Or cause supernatural things in the sky to happen? He healed because He loved.
     
  5. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

    282
    +0
    If ya gonna tell me it is out a context, your gonna have to do a better job than that Louis.

    What makes you think that this scripture is what you say it means, you base everything on scripture mate but I can’t see your interpretation. Every scripture you guys have come up with is put with your own twist and explanation were as , all I have done is pasted scripture that speaks for its self.

    The fact that you are so shore I have this out of context has proved that your biblical knowledge isn’t divine like you seem to think because I recon you are the one that has it all out of context.
    For a start , I have never said that god would give you something that was totally against his will. You’re the one telling me I am saying that over and over?????????

    Look at it again, only take those tunnel vision glasses of this time mate. ;)

    Matthew 7
    7. Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
    8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
    9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
    10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
    11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, “how much more” shall your Father which is in heaven give “good things to them that ask him”?

    Now, I have never said that god will give you what ever you want.. All you need to do is read my posts Louis to see that. I think you need to get what I have said in context because you keep saying that this is what I am saying and also the faith movement, even though I have tried to explain many times, if you would have read my posts.

    Scripture speaks for it’s self but ya got to laugh at how Christians twist it to say what ever they want :D:D:D.



    Yes , so what is your point hear????

    I have never ever said any such things LOUIS , will you please stop putting words in my mouth because your interpretation of my posts is extreamly out of context. Stop saying I said this and that!!! Quote me but do not put words in my mouth!!!


    Ya gotta read my posts mate or what is the point????

    My goodness, are we even reading the same book??:D

    Talking about out of context mate??? This was talking about us not worrying because god takes care of us. The heathen worries about such things because they are without faith in gods.

    Read it carefully mate because I disagree with your scriptural interpretations “totally”. He says not to worry about theses needs because our heavenly father will automatically take care of us. He said,” first seek the kingdom of god and its righteousness “, then all these things will be added to you.”

    .



    28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?
    29 And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.
    30 For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.
    31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
    32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.



    So if someone prospers because they give, that is against the bible??? Were would that leave people like Job and Abraham and David and Solomon and many other men of god that made god first in their life and god made them rich.???

    Luke 6

    38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye meet withal it shall be measured to you again.


    So if one prospers by living by this scripture, how can someone that disagrees, ever convince them that what they do is against gods will

    They can’t!!! because it works just like the scripture tells us.

    I feel for all you people that don`t have the faith to believe that god would desire to do any more than just put a little food in your mouth????

    Celtic.
     
  6. Jewel

    Jewel New Member

    35
    +0
    Celtic, post #147 was a fluffy post that I don't think anyone would argue about what you generally addressed but you still have basicly evaded being specific about the word "abundant," and what that word EXACTLY means to you.

    I'm not a Calvinist but I find a lot useful information just about everywhere and William Barclay in his commentary on John says of the passage in 10:10

    I know Barclay is right because that is what happened to me when I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour.

    The word "abundant" can apply to material possessions or to the quality of our lives spiritually. I believe the latter is what Jesus was referring to in John 10:10. It is a joy that comes with knowing the truth. And that truth is that Jesus came as a ransom for many to deliver us from sin.

    If we look at Mark 10:17-26, in (v.26) the disciples ask "Who then can be saved?" It was a common Jewish belief that in Jesus' time, if a man was rich, God must have honoured and blessed him. Wealth was proof of excellence of character and of favour with God. So the disciples are astounded when Jesus showed how this rich man wouldn't enter into the kingdom of God.

    Because someone believes that their prayers for material things are answered, doesn't mean they are in favoure with God or that they have excellent character. And like I pointed out before satan is ruling in this world til Jesus comes a second time to claim what is His. If Jesus refused to accept satans offer of a gift of the things this world has to offer, how much more should we stop and think about this?

    Thank You Jesus, Your Grace Is Sufficient For Me! No matter what happens in my life :clap:
     
  7. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

    282
    +0
    That post that you recon was all fluffy or what ever , well , if you read it with the holy ghost , you would have seen that exactly what this calvinist has said is totaly 100% along the lines of my testamony and I think it explains my abundant life through christ Identical to this if you care to look Jewel???;

    So , again , while you and louis are consistantly miss understanding me and trying to say I am claiming all soughts of things and since that is also what you guys are doing to the faith movement as well ,I supose I gotta asume that you miss understand the faith movement just like your miss understanding me in every single thing I say??? I wonder if that is a purposeful action regardless if I am write????

    If there is no reason , then I am waisting my time!!! :scratch:

    Celtic. :)
     
  8. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "so guess who's the false teacher? "

    *chuckles* I think you are. Did you not read how christ was summoned and PURPOSELY stopped along the way and let the person die, then raised them. Or did you cut that part out of your bible?

    "Matthew 7 "

    Okay, then by your logic God will give drug users more drugs. yeah, its not out of context *rolls eyes* Celt, until you sit down and honestly look at the scriptures, you're going to get no where.

    "Now, I have never said that god will give you what ever you want.. "

    That's exactly what you said. If you're changing it now, then we have nothing more to discuss. the faith movement doesn't say that. It says if you're christian and poor, you're not being faithful enough, which is a lie.

    "This was talking about us not worrying because god takes care of us. The heathen worries about such things because they are without faith in gods. "

    Exactly meaning you shouldn't be worried about material goods, worry about spiritual blessings. I think you didn't even bother to read the passage. While you're at it read Ecc chapter 5.

    "So if someone prospers because they give, that is against the bible??? "

    *sigh* I never said that. See above.

    "I feel for all you people that don`t have the faith to believe that god would desire to do any more than just put a little food in your mouth???? "

    *sigh* as God said to Paul I also say to you, NO, his grace is sufficent. Its not physical blessings or anything material you should worry about. Christ makes that very clear thus, why himself and ALL of his disciples were poor in pretty much everyway, EXCEPT spiritually.




    "he has preformed miracles through me that souly came by my faith "

    another interesting thing you said...NO, God preforms the miricles through you, NOT through your faith. Your faith isn't the greater then God thing. Again, here you advocate your faith is greater then God.
     
  9. Jewel

    Jewel New Member

    35
    +0
    Get off the wounded crusader kick celtic. I asked you to explain the word abundant and you went into this long tirade and really skirted the question I asked. Then you totally ignored the point I made about the rich man and the disciples asking "who can be saved."

    You did this because you know it shows you that just because you have material wealth and money doesn't mean you have found favor with God and He has rewarded you for being a "good boy."

    If you know your bible backwards and forward then you will be familiar with this:

     
  10. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "you miss understand the faith movement "

    Nope, not at all, you should read some of their books sometime, they are quite affirming of what we accuse them of. they are quite unbibilical.
     
  11. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
     

    I never said that Jesus healed only to show His power.  Yes He healed because He loved, but also to show who He was, so many would believe on Him. 
     
  12. Jewel

    Jewel New Member

    35
    +0
    Mandy, I loved the picture of the horses you sent into the member photo section, wouldn't mind being somewhere like that about now! LOL.

    The Jews always required signs and when we look at the Old Testament we see that God gave signs, wonders and miracles to Moses that continued during the ministry of Joshua, then at the close of one short generation after the death of Moses, the signs, wonders and miracles ceased.

    For nearly five hundred years there were no men empowered with signs, wonders and miracles. Then there is a major shift in the Bible half way through the Old Testament. God turned from dealing with Israel directly through the law and began to deal with them as lawbreakers through His prophets.

    Elijah came with something that had not been seen since the generation following the death of Moses: signs, wonders and miracles. Elijah performed these signs in the sight of Israel so they would know that he was their God-sent messenger and that God now spoke through him, not through the law which they were not keeping, but through prophets who would speak to them as lawbreakers.

    It's interesting to note that on the Mt. of Transfiguration when Jesus was revealed in all His kingly glory there were two men who appeared with Him. These two men were Moses, and Elijah who like Jesus, God had given signs, wonders and miracles to give proof to the Jews that they were God's messengers. It is interesting to note that Moses is an example of the saints that are dead and will rise at the rapture and Elijah of those that will be raptured from the living.

    Any who, when Elijah was taken up to heaven the power to work signs, wonders and miracles was passed on to Elisha. Then, at the close of this one generation after Elijah the era known as the porphets ceased along with signs, wonders and miracles.

    Since Lord Jesus had come as God's Christ with the gospel(a new message; a change in God's dealing with the nation of Israel), He had signs, wonders and miracles. The message became: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved (Acts 16:31). We must put faith and trust, not in continual sacrifices of the law but rather, in the finished blood atonement of the Lamb of God. Having believed, we do not observe the feasts which were a shadow of good things to come but gather at the Lord's table and partake in the memorial of His broken body and shed blood which took away our sins.

    A careful reading of Acts and the Pauline epistles shows that by the close of the apostolic generation, (the one immediately following the earthly ministry of Jesus) the signs were already on the way out. Paul, Timothy and Trophimus were all sick an could not get healed.

    :angel:
     
  13. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    quote:" the signs were already on the way out. Paul, Timothy and Trophimus were all sick an could not get healed."

    "chuckles" you're still in the dark ages. healing is part of the atonement my friend. It'll only die out if the cross dies out first.
     
  14. Jewel

    Jewel New Member

    35
    +0
    Andrew, the sign gifts did not last. If Paul being an apostle of Christ had been given the gift of laying hands on the sick and they would recover, why didn't he lay hands on Trophimus 2Tim.4:20, heal him and bring him along with him?

    In this Laodicean period of the church, people are told to seek the manifestation of the apostolic sign gifts. Preachers and ministers claiming to be apostles and claiming there is a rivival and new outpuring of the Holy Spirit are never tested by scripture. When was the last time that someone claiming to be an apostle drank poison or handled poisonous snakes to prove they have the sign gifts. Even churches that make a practice of handling snakes have people die and are bitten so bad they have to be hospitalized.

    Read Galatians and show me where the sign gifts of Mark 16:17,18 are mentioned. The gospel message is:

    Where is there a guarantee that everyone that gets sick will be healed? Where is the guarantee that everyone that has faith will get whatever they pray for?

    A person that is born again should earnestly want the will of God in operation in their lives.

    Jesus said:

    Paul said:

    Charity is the love of God for humanity, or a love of one's fellow human beings; and act of goodwill or affection; the feeling of goodwill, benevolence; kindness or leniency in judging others; a voluntary givng of money or help to those in need. Charity is always a translation of the Greek word "Agape" a word that suggests unselfish, self-sacrificing concern.

    Thank You Jesus! :clap: Your Grace is sufficient for me! :hug:
     
  15. heydeerman

    heydeerman "Bow Huntin' Fool"

    143
    +0
    I was involved in the Faith Movement for a many years. It is an oppressive performance motivated religion. My heroes back then were Copeland, Hagin, Price, Hickey, Parsley. Roberts, etc. You were not even allowed to mention sickness in my house. Man I dont miss that garbage for nothin. I felt like i got saved again when I left that junk and learned about the grace of God. Grace is where its at.
     
  16. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    Jewel,
    "If Paul being an apostle of Christ had been given the gift of laying hands on the sick and they would recover, why didn't he lay hands on Trophimus 2Tim.4:20, heal him and bring him along with him? "
    Anyone who understnds the gifts of healings will know that you dont turn it on and off like you own some kind of power. It is as the Spirit wills. Sometimes people get healed instantly, sometimes over a period of time. but they get healed. some people have faith to be healed some simply dont. I mean you preach healing to them and they get upset? How to receive from God that way? Anyway, just becos some remain sick does not mean that God does not want to heal. Do you stop having crusades and preaching the Gospel of salvation just becos some dont get saved/dont respond in faith? No you wld cont preaching it cos its Bible.

    There's no way of escaping from the truths about healing cos it's so clearly part of redemption. Just look at the word "saved" in your Bible. Look up the Greek meaning, and you'll see that it includes physical healing. Look at Isa 53:4. Everyone knows Isa 53 is about the suffering of Christ on the cross. It says he bore our sicknesses and pains in the Greek. Look at Deu 28:61 -- Every sickness/plague is one of the curse. And Galatians says we've been redeemed from the curse of the Law thru Christ work. Clearly, healing is part of the atonement/redemption. Look at the miracles of Jesus, did he ever turn any sick person away. Did he ever tell someone "come here, you are too healthy, receive cancer!"

    Lastly, the gifts of the Holy Spirit have not died out. They are more alive today than in the past century.
     
  17. heydeerman

    heydeerman "Bow Huntin' Fool"

    143
    +0
    I dont misunderstand the faith teaching doctrines. i understand them very well. I was on my way to Rhema. My uncle graduated from there and was real close to recruiting me before I left the movement. I posted a story on another thread about a healing that took place in the life of a good friend of mine. I was involved in the healing. I prayed for my friend and she was healed of lymphoma. She had gone through the chemo and everything else and was pretty much left to die by the doctors who were treating her. I was watching her die. God healed her. Someone heard of this and wanted me to pray for their friend who had the same cancer. I did and she died. This lady called me the day she died and cursed me because I didnt have enough faith when I prayed for her friend. She was so upset she moved out of state. this experience got me to thinking about these doctrines and the things I was taught. I soon left the movement. I am one who was. i can speak from experience. Imo the Faith Movement is a dangerous movement with the potential to do more harm than good. Men like Jerry Seville promote wealth like a good Amway convention speaker. Rod Parsley promotes power and an elitest attitude. Oral Roberts and his son promote all kinds of junk....where are the good teachers in the faith movement who teach truth and good doctrine. They promote experience, experience, experience. Like I said before it an experience, performance based religion that has no place for the grace of God. You get to be the God in the Faith Movement. It's closer to New Age spiritualism than authentic Christianity.
     
  18. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    heydeerman,

    Like you said, base your beliefs on the Bible, not some movement or experiences. Determine for youself if healing is part of the atonement in God's word, if Christians are commanded by the Lord to pray for the sick. I preach healing not becos I'm part of some movt, I'm not, but becos I see it in the Bible. If you "give up" becos of one -ve experience, which wasnt even your fault, its like saying I give up on preaching on salvation cos someone did not want to get saved.
     
  19. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

    +1,390
    United States
    Charismatic
    Single
    Hey Andrew,

    I see the arguments are the same.  I guess that's why Jesus said "those who have an ear, let them hear". :D

    I firmly believe we are told to follow the example of Jesus.  He claimed that He only did what He saw the Father do.  And nowhere do we see the Father or Jesus telling anyone to read another man's writings.  In fact what He does say on the issue is "let God be true and every man a lier".  Therefore to all who go by what other believers teach, that is wrong.  We are to get alone with God and our bibles and ask the Holy Spirit to help us understand what we read and what we've been told.

    Since God cannot contradict Himself we must look at the appairent differing scriptures and say "God, why do these seem to contradict each other? Help me understand."

    After all, which of our household rules would we not expect our children to obey?  Can we expect that God would be any different?  Why would He tell us to give to the poor if we are the poor?  Why would He tell us to lay hands on the sick and the prayer of faith would heal if He intended for some to be sick?  How do we pick and choose which ones to pray for healing and which one's not to pray for healing (since God wants them that way?)

    Jesus died for all my situations, not just some of them.  It's sorta like the package deal you get at the bank.  You pay one fee and you have access to every thing the bank has.  That's what Jesus did.  He died for it all.  Redemption covers it all.  We can't remove anything from the package.  We can however, of our own choice, not use it.  That only results in not getting all the benefits of the fee. 

    The fee was/is not paid by us.  It was paid for by Him. Why would anyone choose to reject it.  Some choose to reject salvation.  Others choose salvation, but think that that means that's "all there is.".

    No one can make another person feel an emotion except the person themselves.  If I choose to feel looked down on because I'm sick then that is my choice.  Not the choice of the person who told me I could be well.

    I've been a christian about 45 years and I've lived as close to God's word as I understood.  I would read things and I'd find myself asking, "well God, you say it right here, why is it not happening in my life?  He is always faithful to answer and show me. 

    Again, I ask, which of our household rules do we consider it OK for our children to ignore?  I would think the answer would be none of them.  Then why would we expect it to be any different with God?

    He set things in motion at the beginning.  What goes up, must come down.  Whatever a man sows (life or death (physical/spiritual), riches or poverty (physical/spiritual), health or sickness (physical/spiritual)) he will reap.

    Keep up the good work brother.

     

     

     

     
     
  20. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    quote: "I guess that's why Jesus said "those who have an ear, let them hear"
    Yep! One more ... "according to your faith be it unto you".

    quote: "let God be true and every man a lier".Ê
    AMEN.

    quote: "Therefore to all who go by what other believers teach, that is wrong.Ê We are to get alone with God and our bibles and ask the Holy Spirit to help us understand what we read and what we've been told."

    and thank God for the annointing within.

    quote: "Jesus died for all my situations, not just some of them.Ê It's sorta like the package deal you get at the bank.ÊRedemption covers it all"

    absolutely! Its called the "divine exhanges". or focusing on Christ and Christ crucified. Uncovering the total value of his work, which we will never fully uncover!

    quote:"The fee was/is not paid by us.Ê It was paid for by Him."

    Exactly! That's why there nothing we can do on our part but "name it [dig, study and find out] and claim it [faith in action]" in a sense. That's honouring the work of Jesus.

    quote: "Keep up the good work brother."

    You too!!!
     
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