Faith Movement

[Andrew]

quote: " It really gets my goat when people think I have not been healed yet because I do not have faith - and yes,"

Let's say a person doesnt get healed and he gives up. Does the 'problem' lie with God or with man? If you say that it is NOT becos the man does not have faith (ie not his 'failure', then what is it? That God chooses to heal some and not others? That it is NOT God's will to heal all who come to him in faith? Sometimes he does sometimes he doesnt? a 50-50 thing? Is God like that?

Then you wld have to relook the whole theology on divine healing. it means one cannot accept the fact that "by his stripes you WERE healed". Faith is not saying God can and will heal me, but that he HAS done it 2,000 years ago, and now I'm going to live like it has happened becos it has.

I'm not unfamiliar with sickness. I have a wife who suffers from asthma, womb problems. My mum had cancer and only has a 1/4 stomach left, my dad had a benign brain tumour, and I still have a crackling shoulder. But that does not mean I believe otherwise. I must go by the Word, not by +ve or -ve testimonies. I'd rather die confessing the Word to heaven then to die in unbelief!

so i'm not trying to put someone down when I say that they dont have the faith to get healed simply becos I dont believe the problem lies with God. Man fails, not God.

 

[LilyLamb]

The problem does not lie with God but with "our" perception that a healing MUST take place when we want it to take place - God HAS healed me - it just hasn't been manifested yet - and it may not be until I reach heaven's gate - I can accept that - but there are too many out there that think outside of God's will and His timing - His will is perfect and I can accept having to wait for the manifestation of my healing - I do know that I will receive a new body and that it is possible I may not be healed until I recieve that new body. I don't have a problem with that - it doesn't mean I have "given up" on being healed - I am healed - it just doesn't look like it yet.

 

[Blackhawk]

Lilylamb,

I am impressed. That was a powerful display of faith. Thank you for your wonderful post. I will pray that God will heal your body even before Heaven's gate. But I know that He supplies all needs becaue He has supplied yours.

blackhawk

 

[LilyLamb]

Thank you blackhawk - I have found God to be a great source of comfort to me and He has used me to reach people that I never could have reached had I not understood their pain and suffering. I appreciate your prayers

 

[Ima Knerd]

There is a difference between being healed and being cured. I work with cancer patients who die of their disease but attain the healing in their life that they had taken birth for.

Jesus healed: By accepting the marginalized into the community of humanity, he healed them--even though he did not always "cure" their infirmatives. In first-century Palestine there were strict holiness codes dividing what was considered "righteous" and what was considered "sinful," what was deemed permissible and what was seen as forbidden. Jesus stepped across those cultural boundaries and set the captives free (and at the same time angered and upset the established and conventional world).

At religious healing shrines such as Lourdes in France, there are many cast-off crutches, canes and wheelchairs at the end of the site. You will also find a similar assortment at the end of the pagan healing site in northern Turkey to the god Aesepsylus. But in neither place will you find any thrown-away artificial limbs.

Jesus healed within the bounds of the divine consistency of the known universe. He didn't do magic tricks.

 

[Andrew]

quote: "he healed them--even though he did not always "cure" their infirmatives."

is there a difference? so when Jesus healed deaf, blind and withered hand, he didnt cure them?

quote: "But in neither place will you find any thrown-away artificial limbs."
There are testimonies of limbs growing out, organs being replaced with new ones etc ie creative miracles.

 

[Gunny]

It is my contention that the Health, Wealth & Prosperity Gospel being taught discounts the true sovereignty of God and attempts to render our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ into the role of one who does our bidding as some kind of errand boy or bell-hop.

I don't believe that faith is like some kind of casino chips you can cash into your miracle of choice.

The Mighty and Awsome God of scripture heals, delivers and blesses whom He wants, when He wants and in the manner in which He chooses.

Greater men of faith then myself have suffered from affliction galore but this "thorn in their side" kept them humble and continually sensitive to the move of the Holy Spirit.


GySgt
James

 

[Lynn]

I agree that there can be a difference been "heal" and "cure". God can heal us in many ways, not just physicial. Although he may not cure our disease or infirmity, and make it go away, the healing comes by the change in our outlook or our attitude. Healing can mean acceptance and peace even though physically our condition has not changed. Someone mentioned Joni Erickson Tada. She's a good example. Although she is, physically, still in a wheelchair, her life is full of joy in the Lord. She has been healed.

just my 2 cents, lynn

 

[Andrew]

Lynn,

so you're making a distinction betw physical and spiritual healing, and saying that the latter occurs more frequently. ie settle for the latter and dont 'complain' if you dont get the former. But is this what the Bible says?

Firstly, dont you believe that spiritual and physical healing are part of the atonement -- Isa 53:4. This verse is repeated in Peter and Matthew (I think) -- two place in the NT -- and the context clearly refers to physical healing.

Secondly, the Greek word for "salvation" or "saved" in the NT -- "sozo" -- means physical healing too, besides being saved from hell.

 

[Blackhawk]

"Secondly, the Greek word for "salvation" or "saved" in the NT -- "sozo" -- means physical healing too, besides being saved from hell."

But many who are not physically healed right now are saved though. But all will be physically healed when we go to Heaven. But I do alsobelieve there is spiritual and physical healing. God can do both at anytime but is not on call when WE want to be healed. He has His own purposes and His own timing.

I think that we need to get back to understanding that God's blessings are not what we should be after. If it is then we miss His true blessings. What we should be after is God Himself. If we obtain a strong relationship with God, no matter if we are rich or poor or if we are healthy all our lives or sick, we will gain more than the most worldly blessed man.

Blackhawk

"My treasures are in Heaven where moth and rust do not spoil." My Paraphrase

 

[TruelightUK]

Originally posted by Blackhawk
I think that we need to get back to understanding that God's blessings are not what we should be after. If it is then we miss His true blessings. What we should be after is God Himself

I wholeheartedly endorse that comment! As an 'insider' on the Word of Faith Movement, one of my main concerns was that the way the Gospel was marketed led to many people (not all, and not always) coming to Christ for what (they hoped) they could get out of Him. Not because of any deep-seated conviction of their own sin, or God's holiness, but because they thought this was the way to get the wealth/health etc. that they failed to gain in the world. When they failed to be healed, or did not magically get their debts paid, they 'went away disappointed' and embittered, because, basically, their faith was imperfect and misplaced. It was a faith conditional upon results; 'If God delivers the goods, I'll know He's real and praise Him for it".

By contrast, often when I see folk come to Jesus out of a real conviction of His inherent worth, glory, love etc., with no real thought for themselves and what they can get out of Him, very often they have ended up gaining material blessings which they never actively sought. This is a basic of Christ's teaching - "Deny yourself (your rights, your comfort, your best interests) and follow me - surrender your life in order to gain it".

Sadly, 'Name it and Claim it' preachers have a tendency to degrade God, from the Almighty, Holy, Righteous Lord of the Universe, who commands our respect, obedience and adoration simply because of who He is, into some sort of 'divine slot machine' - put your faith confession in the slot, press the right button and out pops the blessing you desire - 100% guaranteed, everytime; everyone a winner! Of course God, being a good and loving Father, delights to bless His children, however, like Daniel and his companions, we need to be able to say "My God will deliver me from this negative situation, but even if He doesn't He is still worthy of my love and service, and I will continue to praise His Name".

Anthony

 

[Lynn]

Originally posted by Andrew
Lynn,

so you're making a distinction betw physical and spiritual healing, and saying that the latter occurs more frequently. ie settle for the latter and dont 'complain' if you dont get the former. But is this what the Bible says?

Firstly, dont you believe that spiritual and physical healing are part of the atonement -- Isa 53:4. This verse is repeated in Peter and Matthew (I think) -- two place in the NT -- and the context clearly refers to physical healing.

Secondly, the Greek word for "salvation" or "saved" in the NT -- "sozo" -- means physical healing too, besides being saved from hell.

No, I never said that we should "settle" or used the word "complain". But I do think that spiritual or emotional healing can be just as important, or even more important, than physical healing. God may not want a physical healing for all of us. But he does want us to be emotionally and spiritually healthy. If our spiritual lives are strong and healthy, then we can face our physical problems better. If God also wants us to be healed physically, that is a blessing. But if that is not what he wants for me, then so be it. Just because I may not be physically healed, it doesn't mean that I am not "saved".

lynn

p.s. I don't know how the Happy Birthday popped up, but thank you, its soooo cute!

 

[Andrew]

quote: "God may not want a physical healing for all of us. But he does want us to be emotionally and spiritually healthy."

That's where I can't agree. It's not a matter of whether God wants to or not becos the truth is he has, thru the cross. Healing (spiritual and physical) is part of the atonement, and we claim that by faith.

Also, I've come across too many terminally sick people to believe that emotional/spiritual healing (I'm not talking abt being saved) is good enough for them, and that they should settle for that if God doesnt heal them physically. I can't bring myself to tell that to a person dying of cancer.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

2 Cor 9:8 says, "And God is able to make all grace (every favor and earthly blessing) come to you in abundance, so that you may always and under all circumstances and whatever the need be self-sufficient [possessing enough to require no aid or support and furnished in abundance for every good work and charitable donation]. (Amplified)The whole chapter is about giving and receiving.

I believe most people do not have a full understanding of the "name it claim it" term. Even many of those who are in that group do not fully understand the term.

There are some who believe that you just say what you want, find a scripture that backs it up, and then God is abliged to obey their commmand. However, that's not the way it is.

We most definately are intitled to every blessing that God promises His own. However, there is a qualifier to the blessings.

Take a look at Deuteronomy, chapter 28. The first verse starts out with "If you will listen diligently to the voice of the Lord your God, being watchful to do all His commandments which I have commanded you this day, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth." The next 13 verses is a list of all the blessings.

Then at verse 15 it says, "But if you will not obey the voice of the Lord your God, being watchful to do all His commandments and His statutes which I command yuou this day, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you." The rest of the chapter is is the list of curses.

Now in Romans, Paul tells us we are not longer under the law but we are saved by grace through faith. In chapter 5:21 he writes that "just as sin has reigned in death, [so] grace (His unearned and undeserved favor) might reign also thrugh righteousness (right standing with God) which issues in eternal life thrugh Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) our Lord." Chapter 6:1, 2 says, "What shall we say [to all this]? Are we to remain in sin in order that God's grace (favor and mercy) may multiply and overflow? Certainly not! How can we who died to sin live in it any longer? Read all of Romans for the full message.

Just because we are no longer under the law does not mean it's OK to live as we please and still reap God's blessings here on earth. This is seen in Galations 6:8,9 where we are told "For he who sows to his own flesh (lower nature, sensuality) will from the flesh reap decay and ruin and destruction, but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not lose heart and grow weary and faint in acting nobly and doing right, for in due time and at the appointed season we shall reap, if we do not loosen and relax our courage and faint". Hense, the blessings and curses in Deut 28.

Now looking back at 2 Cor 9:6 "[Remember] this: he who sows sparingly and grudgingly will also reap sparingly and grudgingly, and he who sows generously [that blessings may come to someone] will also reap generously and with blessings. This is not just money but other blessings as well. Again, see Deut 28:1-14.

So in my opinion, I believe we are being told that when we live as God has called us as "sons of righteousness", not as "sons of disobedience", then we have the right to name and claim the blessings that God has named.

There are basically three reasons we do not have what God says. 1. We walk in disobedience. 2. We don't know what our claim is (lack of knowledge:Hosea 4:6) 3. An attack of our enemy, satan.

We can win the battle in all of these situations. First by walking in obedience, second by finding out what God promises to His own, and third by standing firm in the Word and overcoming our enemy. It does not usually happen in an instant but over time. We are "being" conformed into His Image.

I know this isn't everything but hopefully it's enough to get all who desire to follow God to the fullest to start checking out what God promises. We don't have to live defeated lives. To do so is a discrace to our Father.

I have not got it all together yet myself. I'm still learning all this stuff too. That's why it is so important to watch what we say. "Death and life are in the power of the tongue" (Prov 18:21). We can speak death or we can speak life. God's blessings are life.

God Bless,

Quaffer

 

[LouisBooth]

"Healing (spiritual and physical) is part of the atonement, and we claim that by faith. "

So if you're sick or don't die of old age you're not faithful? Okay, shall we look at the bible for that? Its clear that timothy was sick, are you saying he wasn't faithful enough? I'm just amazed that you really believe that...

 

[Andrew]

AMEN Quaffer!!!
----------------------
quote: "Okay, shall we look at the bible for that?"

sure:

Besides our sins, Jesus bore our sicknesses and pains on the cross. He was also whipped 39 times on His back (till His flesh was torn and His bones exposed) to buy us healing.

Isaiah 53:4 -- Surely he hath borne our griefs [sicknesses], and carried our sorrows [pains]: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

The words "griefs" and "sorrows" actually mean "sicknesses" and "pains" (physical and mental) in the original Greek (see Strong's numbers 02483 and 04341). The translation is thus unfortunate.

The verses are quoted again in Matthew 8:17 and 1 Peter 2:24. Some have insisted that the verses have to do with spiritual healing only. But the immediate context of Matthew 8:17 (verses 15,16) proves that they are refering to physical healing. This is not to say that spiritual healing is not included as demons were cast out too.

Matthew 8:15 -- And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

What does all this mean for us Christians? Because Christ bore our sicknesses and pains on the cross 2,000 years ago, it would make no sense for us to bear them again today. Do we go around carrying our sins and feeling condemned? No, because Jesus already bore our sins for us, and was judged and punished by the Father in our place because of our sins. So, for us to carry on bearing our sins and condeming ourselves is to not trust in the finished work of Christ and to dishonour it!

It is the same with sickness and pain. Why should a Christian suffer cancer and be in pain when, in his place, Christ had already born that particular cancer and pain in His own body on the cross? If Christ had already been punished with that cancer, why should that Christian be punished again with that same cancer? The same crime cannot be punished twice! If you get a speeding ticket, you don't pay the fine twice or thrice, do you? God is not unjust, He is faithful to the perfect sacrifice of His Son. It is Satan who is unjust. It is the devil, not God, who puts the cancer on the ignorant Christian.

God says that His people are destroyed due to a lack of knowledge (Hosea 4:6). Christians are still getting sick and dying prematurely because they do not know their rights or inheritance in Christ, and Satan has taken advantage of their ignorance.

So, start seeing that cancer on Jesus' body on the cross, not on your body. The disease cannot exist in two places at the same time. Focus on the fact that Jesus did bear that cancer on His body for you 2,000 years ago. Stop focusing on the cancer. Stop focusing on the medical reports. Stop focusing on your circumstances. Look unto the finished work of Jesus!

That is why Moses lifted up the bronze serpent wrapped around a pole -- a type of the crucifixtion (and the medical symbol used today). Any Jew who was bitten by a snake in the wilderness received healing as long as he "beheld" the bronze serpent on the pole. But those who focused on their snake bite wounds died.

Numbers 21:9 -- And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

How can the bronze serpent be a type of Jesus? A serpent symbolises sin and curse. Jesus was made to be both on the cross.

2 Corinthians 5:21 -- For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Galatians 3:13 -- Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Bronze speaks of judgement. In God's temple, the bronze altar is where the animal sacrifice is burnt. On the cross, Jesus bore God's wrath and fiery judgement as God had to punish our sins that were in His Son's body. Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death, but Isaiah 53:5 says that the chastisement that brought us peace with God was upon Jesus. The pole, of course, symbolises the cross.

In Deu 28 the curses of the Law include "all other types of sicknesses". But Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law, ie he has redeemed us from sicknesses, ie HEALING IS PART OF THE REDEMPTION.

SO either we believe this and claim the promises by faith and act on it, or we ignore it and get sick. The choice is yours.

Is it a sin to be sick? NO. But its a sin to think God put it there. It's ignorance abt redemption to think God heals some and doesnt heal others.

Do Christians who believe in this still fall sick? Yes, but very much less often. Usu the symptoms come, but they stand their ground on the Word of God and the symptoms go. Or even if they do fall sick, they recover very much faster. I fall sick only about once or twice a year. And I usu dont need to see a doctor.

you see, the results are the same with a Christian's sin consciousness. Some Christians go around carrying their sins still and feeling condemed. Some really believe that "there is now no condemnation" for him. But the fact remains that Christ has borne all their sins, and was punished in their place. It is the same with sickness.

 

[LouisBooth]

"The words "griefs" and "sorrows" actually mean "sicknesses" and "pains" (physical and mental) in the original Greek (see Strong's numbers 02483 and 04341). The translation is thus unfortunate.
"

first of all what are you looking at? Isiah wasn't written in greek was it?

I'm still waiting for an answer about timothy..was he not faithful enough? Paul clearly tells us he was sickly ..some sort of stomach problems.

also

Psa 41:3 The LORD will strengthen him upon the bed of languishing: thou wilt make all his bed in his sickness.

strengthening is sickness.....hmm...

 

[LouisBooth]

"But its a sin to think God put it there. "

Wrong. I think you need to do a word study on sickness. God does allow and send it. Read job, then read pslams.

 

[Andrew]

"first of all what are you looking at? Isiah wasn't written in greek was it? "

Ok sorry I meant Hebrew. Here is Strongs numbers:

GRIEFS:
02483 \^ylx\^ choliy {khol-ee'}

from 02470; TWOT - 655a; n m

AV - sickness 12, disease 7, grief 4, sick 1; 24

1) sickness

SORROWS:
04341 \^bakm\^ mak'ob {mak-obe'} sometimes mak'owb {mak-obe'}
also (fem. Is 53:3) mak'obah {mak-o-baw'}

from 03510; TWOT - 940b; n m

AV - sorrow 12, pain 2, grief 2; 16

1) pain, sorrow
1a) pain (physical)
1b) pain (mental)

-----------------------

As for Timothy. Pls show me where in the Bible it says he fell sick and remained sick till he died?? I think you meant Epaphroditus:

Philppians2: 25 I have thought it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier, and your messenger and minister to my need, 26* for he has been longing for you all, and has been distressed because you heard that he was ill. 27* Indeed he was ill, near to death. But God had mercy on him, and not only on him but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.
28* I am the more eager to send him, therefore, that you may rejoice at seeing him again, and that I may be less anxious. 29* So receive him in the Lord with all joy; and honor such men, 30* for he nearly died for the work of Christ, risking his life to complete your service to me.

Obviously he was healed or Paul wldntbe able to send him to them.

Also, I think you are confusing faithfulness with faith for healing. I'm not saying that Christians who fall sick are not good faithful Christians. I'm just saying that every Christian needs to exercise their faith in every area of the walk with God, health and healing included. So if a Christian is constantly sick, then he is not exercising his faith in the area of healing. Prob doesnt know about healing in redemption.

quote: "God does allow [sickness] and send it."

Allow? Yes. Obviously since there are Christians who are sick. Author of sickness? No! that's pure heresy and denying the work of Christ. If you want to quote from the OT, make sure you interpret it in light of what Christ has done and not talk as if Christ did not die! eg Job wished he had someone to mediate betw him and God, an avocate. His wish is our reality.

Now deal with Isa 53:4 and the fact that Christ has redeemed us from the curse of sickness.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

LouisBooth,

Ah, Job, a perfect example.

It is important to note that just because it is recorded that someone in the Bible said something, if what they said disagrees with God then what they said was not the truth.

Look at Job 1:21. I'm reading the Amplied Bible, Job said, "The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away". Now look at Job 2:6, God says, "Behold, he is in your (satan) hand; only spare his life". Job was wrong in his assessment of the situation. God had given but it was not God who was taking it away.

In Hosea 4:6 God says, "My people parish for lack of knowledge.

True God gave satan permission to attack, but it was actually Jobs lack of knowledge that brought it on, Job 42:3 Job said, "I have rashly uttered what I did not understand".

Prov 29:25 says, The fear of man bringeth a snare:but whoso putteth his trust in the Lord shall be safe".

In Job 3:25,26 Job says, "For the thing which I greatly fear comes upon me, and that of which I am afraid befalls me. I was not or am not at ease, or had I or have I rest, nor was I or am I quiet, yet trouble came and still comes upon me".

Look also at Job 13:3 (Amp) Job said, Surely I wish to speak to the Almighty, and I desire to argue and reason my case with God [that He may explain the conflict between what I believe of Him and what I see of Him]." Job did not turn against God but he did turn on Him. Jobs attitude was one of self pity, self-righteousness, complaining, defiance and lack of trust.

We see God's correction using Elihu beginning in chapter 32. The last chapter, after Gods correction of Job, 42:1-6 "Then Job said to the Lord, I know that You can do all things, and that no thought or purpose of Yours can be restrained or thwarted. [You said to me] Who is this that darkens and obscures counsel [by words] without knowledge? Therefore, [I now see] I have [rashly} uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. [I had virtually said to You what You have said to me:] Hear, I beseech You, and I will speak; I will demand of You, and You declare to me. I had heard of You [only] by the hearing of the ear, but now my [spiritual] eye sees You. Therefore I loathe [my words] and abhor myself and repent in dust and ashes.

A perfect example of lack of knowledge, leading to fear, and resulting in Job letting the words of his mouth run amuck and bringing death (Prov 18:21).