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Faith Movement

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by Annabel Lee, Jun 6, 2002.

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  1. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "God had given but it was not God who was taking it away. "

    So you're saying God didn't have control over satan?

    wrong ;)

    "As for Timothy. Pls show me where in the Bible it says he fell sick and remained sick till he died?"

    What's very clear is that he was indeed sick and at that time being very faithful to God. Also if you look closely you see that Christ in certain portions of his life did not heal everyone that came in contact with him and it speaks nothing of lack of faith, just that he didn't heal everyone.


    "I'm just saying that every Christian needs to exercise their faith in every area of the walk with God, health and healing included. So if a Christian is constantly sick, then he is not exercising his faith in the area of healing. Prob doesnt know about healing in redemption. "

    Okay, I'll challenge you to your faith then. Go and contract the E-bola virus then pray hard for God to heal you and don't take any medicine. We will see if he does or not. God is not some cosimic bank. He is God he takes away and he gives, what he gives is what you NEED not what you WANT.

    Andrew..no I was talking about timothy

    "1Ti 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. "

    OFTEN...see that word? do you think he had a lack of faith?
     
  2. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    quote: ""1Ti 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. "
    How is it you take this one verse an apply it soley to Tim? The whole context is Paul giving instructions to Tim to pass on the the church Tim was looking after. He is telling Tim: "and tell the people to not just drink water, a little wine is good for your health, since you guys are often falling sick".

    See here we have wisdom from God as to how to live in good health. God wants his children healthy (dont you?).

    Quote: "Okay, I'll challenge you to your faith then. Go and contract the E-bola virus then pray hard for God to heal you and don't take any medicine."

    Dont make foolish statements like that and think that those who believe in divine health will actually test the Lord. We're talking about claiming health thru the cross by faith, so dont make stupid statements!

    So you've taken Tim (misinterpreted it) and built your doctrine on 1 verse.

    And you've yet to deal with Isa 53:4 and the fact the Christ has redeemed us from the curse of Deu 28:61.

    quote: ""God had given but it was not God who was taking it away. " So you're saying God didn't have control over satan? wrong""

    Havent ye read. It is written: "The devil comes to steal kill and destroy, I come that ye may have life and have it more abundantly." Sure is heretical to believe that Christ came to steal our health and destroy lives. Also, if God has control over Satan, then Jesus shld have said, "I have come to control Satan and stop him from stealing killing and destroying, dont worry, I'm in control and he wont do these things anymore".

    But its obviously not like that in the world right? Was God in control when Sept 11 happened? Only a fool wld say God was in charge then! If He was, Jesus Christ wld be reigning on earth now.
     
  3. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    It appears that you did not carefully read both my posts. Both issues were mentioned.

    In Job 2:6 it's God Who says "Behold, he is in your hand; only spare his life". God had control but the distruction to Job did not come from His hand.

    In Job 42 it is Job who is repenting to God for his rashness of words due to his lack of understanding and his fear.

    In regards to Timothy, I do not see that he was continuously sick. It might me similar to us saying "puting some vitamon E ointment on that scar".

    In my first post I mentiond reasons why we are sick and poor. Nowhere in the Word does it say it is Gods will to be be sickly and poor.

    It does tell the rich to give their wealth away, however, other scriptures tell us that as a result of giving God gives us more. So actually, we should be in position to be able to continuously giving away.

    How can we give food to the hungry if we have no money to buy food? How can we clothe and house the homeless if we have not money to buy it?

    This message is not for those who are greedy and will horde everthing to themselves but to those who want to follow God in every way He calls.

    The body of Christ needs money to fullfill the call. God supplies that in all kinds of ways. But, there are qualifiers of which I wrote in my first post on this subject.

    We are called to be balanced. If your heart is greedy and you can't handle the riches God wants to give you, then get before God and repent. He wants to change that heart and use you to further His Kingdom.
     
  4. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    No need to respond to this. We should be cautious in this area of discussion.

    Our faith can be shaped by understanding God's nature. When we study faith we attempt to understand by the experiences and knowledge of others as they are written (including the Bible). However, one single experience (touch) will give you more knowledge of His nature than all the words ever written. How can we be touched by God? By faith alone. We need teaching and Biblical knowledge to compare experiences so as not to be fooled. However, we should not use knowledge to limit God. The story of Lazarus is revealing in the area of faith.

    Thomas went with Jesus when the news came about Lazarus because He wanted to die with him when they stoned Him. That is faith but different than Martha and Mary's faith when they said that Lazarus would not have died if Jesus had not left him. There again faith, but different than the faith of the ones that followed along to see if Jesus could actually raise Him from the dead. They had faith that something was about to happen. The thing they did not do was put limits on God as did Thomas, Martha and Mary.

    When we talk about faith we need to first evaluate our faith. Are we on God's side, ready to fail with Him as Thomas was? Do we believe that when bad things happen, that God somehow forgot to "be there" or was not interested?. Is our faith one of; "something is about to happen"? It seems that the ones that followed along to see what was about to happen had more faith than the very closest friends of our Lord. It totally depends on how you look at it.

    Be cautious when discussing faith. I do not know what is about to happen but with God it can be anything.

    Many times a persons understanding of faith is based upon personal "touches". I can't question that.

    Allow faith to grow in others, don't box it in with head knowledge.



    Blessings
     
  5. Messenger

    Messenger Simplicity of Life

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    Amen Eldermike very well stated.
    Love and God Bless.
     
  6. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    Each of us is given a measure of faith (Rom 12:3) Jesus compared that measure to the size of a mustard seed. (Luke 17:6 and Matt 17:20)

    What we do with that measure of faith depends on us. (Matt 13:30-32, Luke13:18-20, Mark 4:30-32) It can grow by us watering it or it can lay dormant. It’s up to us to build upon what God has given us. (Matt 25:27-29)

    Without faith it is impossible to please God and He is a rewarder of them that seek Him (Heb 11:5-7)

    The righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith and we are supposed to live by faith (Rom 1:16-18)

    No one is to stand in judgement of another’s faith. However, neither should a person of great faith remain silent when they can help others learn more. This is not to make them feel less but to help them grow. If one feels less because of another’s great faith it is not the fault of the one with great faith. It is our enemy, satan, who is out to kill, steal, and destroy (John 10:10).

    When we don’t have the knowledge needed to mature and grow then we perish (Hosea 4:6) Our lack of knowledge leads to fear which then lead to our mouths speaking death not only to ourselves, but our situations and our families. We choose the way we feel by what we concentrate on. (Phil 4:8)

    I choose to walk in health but there are times when symptoms of illness appear. I claim the promise of Jesus that I am healed by His stripes. If I’ve abused my body and I’m sick as a result it is my fault. I repent and get back on track. I am still healed by His stripes.

    None of the things scripture tells us to do are suggestions. They are commands. We are expected to educate ourselves and to change accordingly.

    Once when I was working for a religious organization and during a devotional time the person read the scripture where Paul tells us to “rejoice in the Lord always”. They looked up and said, “oh come on, nobody does this.” Unfortunately, this is the way too many claiming Christians think. They have not believed the scriptures. They have selectively chosen to believe what their circumstances are instead of what God says. Our faith should not be built on our circumstances but on what God says.

    Again, it’s a very simple problem to remedy. Going into depression and feeling less of the person God says you are is not the way to go. The way to go is through repentance. Once you understand what God wants, then walk according to the faith given you. Don’t you judge anyone or allow anyone to judge you. (Romans 8:1) And, don’t allow satan to steal the Word that is in you. (Matt 13:17-19)


    2 Cor 9:8 says, "And God is able to make all grace (every favor and earthly blessing) come to you in abundance, so that you may always and under all circumstances and whatever the need be self-sufficient [possessing enough to require no aid or support and furnished in abundance for every good work and charitable donation]. (Amplified)

    According to this scripture, it is God’s will that we have everything in abundance. This is so that we can meet all needs as they come, for ourselves and others. We are not to seek blessings, however, if we are always sick, or poor, or never can help anyone else then something is wrong. God’s Word promises that when we seek Him and do what He says, it is impossible not to be blessed.
     
  7. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    Quaffer,

    I agree, everything must be compared to scripture.

    The meaning of abundant life is another issue.

    I could be sick every day of my life, be poor every day of it, be hungry for food, not even have proper shelter and still be blessed because I have been fogiven and set free from sin. An abudant life is a life in God's hands, in His abudant grace. God is sufficent, that is the key, it's not about abundance of things. Every American is rich by the worlds standards, there is no measure of abundance that is Godly, only by our preception do we measure it. God's grace is abundant.

    Blessings
     
  8. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    2 Cor 9:8 conveys the message that even in the poorest of situations when God's Word is believed in every situation, God will supply abundantly whatever is needed. Whatever is abundance to the receiver. . .that's what God supplies. Whether it's rice or a car.

    If one needs food, God supplies food, by either another person or giving you money. This happened to me. . . One morning, during prayer I asked God to supply food. I had none. While walking my dog, in the apartment parking lot, I looked down and under my feet and blowing in the wind were 6 $20 bills. For me that was abundance. I had only asked for food for myself. I was then able to help someone else and buy for myself as well.

    I have found bags of canned food sitting at the dumpster. And they weren't old and dented.

    Another time, a friend was moving and because she did not want to carry it with her, gave me a basket full of quarters, dimes, nickels, and pennies. There was more than $200. Again, I blessed others with some as well as met my own need of the moment.

    Another time I was ministering Jesus to some Russian neighbors, several of them. They expressed a desire for Bibles. I prayed, Lord, I have only enough money to buy maybe one, please supply the rest. The pastor of my church found out about it and took up a collection so that I could buy many Russian Bibles. I had Russian people that I did not even know come up to me and ask me for a Bible. God had supplied in abundance. That was more than 4 years ago and God is still putting Russian Bibles into my hands and I come in contact with Russians who need them. And I don't live in Russia, I live in Florida.

    I have been healed and cured miraculously and through modern medicine. In this day and age either one takes faith.

    I've had furniture, cars, clothes, etc. given to me because they were needed for the situation I was in. I've also given these types of things to other people. I keep giving things away and more continues to come back.

    That's exactly the way scripture says it will happen. I don't give for that purpose though, I give because it's obedience to God. And, as a result of obedience, He gives back. It's His promise.

    The scripture means what it says. God is able...to supply all my needs. And the extra is for blessing others with.

    God is not a dead-beat dad. Yes, I am blessed just being saved, but there is even more. And if God is handing it out I don't want to be the one to tell Him "no thanks".
     
  9. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "I do not see that he was continuously sick. It might me similar to us saying "puting some vitamon E ointment on that scar". "

    okay, did you not read the verse? it says often infirmeries...


    the word used is

    769 astheneia {as-then'-i-ah}

    from 772; TDNT - 1:490,83; n f

    AV - infirmity 17, weakness 5, disease 1, sickness 1, 24

    and the other word used for often is

    4437 puknos {pook-nos'}

    from the same as 4635;; adj

    AV - often 2, oftener 1; 3

    This means that he was very often sick. So again I ask, do you think timothy had no faith?

    "Nowhere in the Word does it say it is Gods will to be be sickly and poor. "

    He allows it to happen. IE he says no when some people are asked to be healed. If someone is sick, it just means they are sick, not that they don't have enough faith. that's an OT way of thinking that sickness was a punishment for sin. Jesus himself spoke against that. As for the wealth thing, I'm ready for it, I'm faithful, and I don't have it..why? BECAUSE I DON'T NEED IT. That's the point. God takes care of our needs. Material wealth doesn't matter and just because you don't have it doesnt mean you can't handle it.
     
  10. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    quote: "IE he says no when some people are asked to be healed."

    There's no such thing. you are going by experiences.

    Mark 11:24 "Whatsoever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them"

    Mat 8:2 and behold, a leper came to him and knelt before him, saying, "Lord, if you will, you can make me clean."
    3* And he stretched out his hand and touched him, saying, "I will; be clean." And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.

    God is no respector of persons. He doesnt just heal some and leave others to die. Again, it is not about whether God will or will not, but the truth is that he has done it thru the cross

    ¥ Surely he hath borne our pains and sicknesses (Isa 53:4)
    ¥ And with his stripes we were healed.
    ¥ Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law which includes all sickness (Deu 28:61)

    Healing (as well as prosperity) is part of redemption and the atonement. So, dtop ignoring this and believe.
     
  11. Martin

    Martin Senior Veteran

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    Where did Jesus EVER refuse healing to anyone?
    Where did Jesus EVER say that a person's healing was to achieve a higher purpose of God?
    Where did Jesus EVER indicate that now was not the time to be healed?
    When did Jesus ever indicate or say that their sins prevented them from being healed?

    Jesus often said and indicated that He only ever did the Father's will, did what He saw the Father doing...etc. So when you look at Jesus you are seeing an exact representation of the Father. The will of Jesus and the will of the Father are the same, so in the same way that Jesus was willing to heal everyone, so does the Father.

    The only criteria was that they came to Him in faith....
     
  12. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    I do not believe that every person who is sick is that way because of sin.

    Not having what you need to eat or pay your bills on a continuing basis or being sick on a continuing basis is a curse. (Deut 28:17 – 68) God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. If He called it a curse in the Old Testament it’s still a curse.

    We may be under that curse as a result of our or a parents/spouse’s sin. We may be under a curse as a result of our ignorance. Or, we may be under a curse because of an attack from satan.

    Because of what Jesus did for us on the cross we are no longer bound to these curses. However, unless we take hold of the healing Christ paid for we remain there.

    Is it too hard for you to ask God why you are under this curse on yourself? Are you afraid to do that? If He does not reveal to you any sin is it too hard to ask Him to show you where you are missing it then? Is it possible that you’ve just been ignorant on the subject. And you’re sick or poor because of ignorance? Is it possible? Are you afraid of the answer God might give you? Is it possible that God wants to use you to bless your church but He can’t because He can’t get to the issues He wants to get to?

    Even in the poorest of countries, God is meeting the needs of the believers. They may not have what we in America have but their needs are still met.

    I do not believe that every Christian is to be rich in money. But I do believe they are to be able to give when necessary. When you see a brother in need and you cannot help then you are not able to obey God in the area of giving. Why would God tell us to give to those in need and then not give us what is needed to give?

    Again, God is not a dead-beat dad. Nor is He abusive and make His children sick so that He can get glory. Sickly children do not bring glory to anyone. There is a brother in my church who travels throughout Fl spreading the gospel. God told him to give up everything. The brother has never gone without his needs being met. He does not have to beg on a street corner. He does not have his own place to live but yet he always has a place to sleep. God is blessing him.

    I use to believe the way you do but have become more knowledgeable on the subject. Through that knowledge I have seen my life improve greatly.

    If you think that God has made you sick then you will most likely remain sick. If you think that God has made you poor then you will remain poor. It’s all in what you believe.

    If we are sick we can be healed. At one point in scripture we see that Timothy WAS sick. It does not say that he never received healing. Just like we learn and grow so did they.


    Regarding Healing or the Lack thereof

    Jesus healed everyone who came to Him. Some, because of the faith of a family member going to Jesus were healed. The only time it’s recorded that He did not heal is in Matt 13:58. And, it was because of their unbelief.

    Matthew 13:58
    And He did not do many works of power there, because of their unbelief (their lack of faith [1] in the divine mission of Jesus).


    Here is a list of scriptures where Jesus said it was because of their faith that they were healed.

    Matthew 9:22
    Jesus turned around and, seeing her, He said, Take courage, daughter! Your faith has made you well. And at once the woman was restored to health.

    Luke 18:42
    And Jesus said to him, Receive your sight! Your faith ([Joseph Thayer, A Greek-English Lexicon.] your trust and confidence that spring from your faith in God) has healed you.

    Luke 8:48
    And He said to her, Daughter, your faith (your confidence and trust in Me) has made you well! Go (enter) [Richard Trench, Synonyms of the New Testament.] into peace ([Hermann Cremer, Biblico-Theological Lexicon.] untroubled, undisturbed well-being).

    Mark 5:34
    And He said to her, Daughter, your faith (your [Joseph Thayer, A Greek-English Lexicon.] trust and confidence in Me, springing from faith in God) has restored you to health. Go in [Kenneth Wuest, Word Studies.] (into) peace and be continually healed and freed from your [[Joseph Thayer, A Greek-English Lexicon.] distressing bodily] disease.

    Matthew 21:22
    And whatever you ask for in prayer, having faith and [really] believing, you will receive.

    Luke 17:19
    And He said to him, Get up and go on your way. Your faith (your trust and confidence that spring from your belief in God) has restored you to health.

    James 5:15
    And the prayer [that is] of faith will save him who is sick, and the Lord will restore him; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.


    Regarding Poverty

    2 Corinthians 9:8
    And God is able to make all grace (every favor and [1] earthly blessing) come to you in abundance, so that you may always and under all circumstances and whatever the need [2] be self-sufficient [possessing enough to require no aid or support and furnished in abundance for every good work and charitable donation].
     
  13. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "There's no such thing. you are going by experiences.
    "

    OKay, I think you're not reading your bible carefully ;) There are places that Christ healed some but not all.

    "So, dtop ignoring this and believe."

    So why was timothy often sick? you're ignoring this question.
     
  14. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    I find it really funny how none of you want to address timothy ALWAYS being sick...
     
  15. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    The scripture does not tell us why Timothy was sick. But the fact that he was frequently sick does not negate the fact that God heals. Epaphradites was sick because he did not rest as he should.

    It does not matter to me why Timothy was sick but I'm sure it mattered to Him. I don't think he believed that God wanted him to be sick. I'm also sure it had nothing to do with his faithfullness to Christ.

    I have a believer friend who was sick all the time. She went to doctors and none of them could figure out what was wrong with her. One night in a dream the Lord appeared to her and set in front of her 3 bowls with a different kind of food in each one. He told her that she should stop eating those foods. They were what was causing her to be sick all the time. She stopped eating those foods and her sickness went away.

    The problem does not lie with people being sick, but with people believing that God wants them that way. If it were true that God wanted us sick, then we would be working in opposition to Him by going to a doctor.

    I go to a doctor who is a member of my church. She believes in healing, both miraculously and through medicine.

    When sickness hits me, I first ask God to show me why. Usually, the only time I get sick is when I don't get enough rest. God shows me that. I repent, claim the healing Jesus gave me at the cross, and go on with my life.

    In Jan. I chose to have surgery because of a major prob that I had fought with since I was a teenager (I'm 48). It was interferring with the ministry God has called me to and it was affecting other parts of my body.

    About 4 years ago, when I first began to learn about and practice faith, I saw changes in my body. The problem stopped progressing but still everyday was a struggle. I stood on faith but it became too much for me. The Lord provided the means for me to have the surgery so I did. And, I do not condemn myself for it.

    Now, I can serve God better in the capacity that He called me. In my mind, I was healed, because the Word says I am. As to why there was not full manifestation I don't know. It did not matter to me.

    There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. If anyone is sick, they can be made well. If they are sick because they have sinned, they can be made well. If they are sick because they are ignorant, they can be made well. If they are sick because of an attack from the enemy, they can be made well. God's Word says so.

    Why take this hope away from people who desperately need it? Why tell them they have to learn to live with it?

    If one is sick, there is the option to just accept it and try to get by or there is the option to pray for healing and then walk in faith until that healing manifests. If one dies before the healing manifests, Oh well. Jesus does not condemn you and neither do I.

    We are not your enemies. However, we have learned something that has increased our ability to walk as God has called us. You should not condemn us either.
     
  16. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "The scripture does not tell us why Timothy was sick. But the fact that he was frequently sick does not negate the fact that God heals"

    but timothy was faithful...it sure does put a big hole in this false docterine you're teaching though.

    "If anyone is sick, they can be made well. "

    I disagree. Some people are sick and cannot be physically healed no matter what. God will give them the ulimate healling of leaving this world and being with them.


    "If one is sick, there is the option to just accept it and try to get by or there is the option to pray for healing and then walk in faith until that healing manifests. If one dies before the healing manifests, Oh well. Jesus does not condemn you and neither do I. "

    Here is the crux of the issue. You say if it doesn't manifest then that person is not faithful. I disagree because that thought is not biblical.
     
  17. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    Louis quote:You say if it doesn't manifest then that person is not faithful.


    My brother Louis,

    I did not say that at all. Please re-read my post. You are quite argumentive and therefore not paying attention.

    See the 2nd paragraph where I posted that it had nothing to do with his faithfullness. Timothy was faithful. I've not posted any particular doctrine. I've only posted scripture.

    You are putting words into several persons mouths by misquoting.

    Louis quote:
    I disagree. Some people are sick and cannot be physically healed no matter what.

    Are you saying it is impossible for God to heal some people? Does not the scripture say "with God, nothing is impossible?



    Quaffer quote
    If one dies before the healing manifests, Oh well. Jesus does not condemn you and neither do I. "

    Louis quote:God will give them the ulimate healling of leaving this world and being with them.


    That's exactly the point I was making. In a different way I merely said the same thing you just did. You seem to be arguing with yourself now.

    I'm sorry you are so angry over this issue. Perhaps you should get alone with God and ask Him to show you where your anger comes from. It certaintly is not from Him.
     
  18. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "You are putting words into several persons mouths by misquoting.
    "

    NO, I'm quoting you exactly. If you don't believe that then just say so without responding to anything else. You're the one that's being arugmentative ;)

    "Are you saying it is impossible for God to heal some people? Does not the scripture say "with God, nothing is impossible? "

    I'm saying God chooses not to heal some people regardless of their faith.

    I'm not angry at all. What gave you that impression? I am just pointing out this docterine for what it is. False :)
     
  19. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    You have pasted and copied peoples words and then refrased them in your own words to mean what we are not saying.

    You have not bothered to ask questions. You've only thrown acusations. I have repeatadely told you I do not believe the acusations you have made but you continue on.

    If you want to be sick, then by all means, stay sick.

    Do not think that because I'm ending it that you have blown holes in scripture. I will discuss the issue with you no more.

    Sorry sir,

    Quaffer
     
  20. pcmixoye

    pcmixoye New Member

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    As a member of a Rema Church, this does not mean I agree with all their doctrines though, I would like to give a Hearty Amen to what has been said by the others. The Faith Movement Is doing a Good work for God.

    God Bless Pete


    Annabelle Lee: Are there any other kind of Klingons?
     
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