Faith in the living, resurrected Word (while the scriptures are only 50% historically accurate).

[Saint Steven]

So what's the takeaway on a literal reading - kids shouldn't mock bald prophets in bear territory?

The fact that we have some otherwise gratuitous numbers '42' and '2' indicates what the Hebrews call a 'remez' - a hint of something deeper going on. Rejoice, they say, and dig for the gold! The bald head I'd say is also relevant and symbolic.

Now I don't profess to have grasped the full meaning of the passage (I could be off-base already), but I won't dismiss it's deeper significance.

I agree that there may be a deeper significance. Jesus was "three days...", that was not arbitrary.

I think this passage fits in the chapter. There is a whole story here about Elijah and Elisha and the double portion. Actually the double portion mantel is the BIG takeaway for me. This passage is a demonstration of that power. (be it all so terrible)

Moral: If you want some respect, it needs to be earned.

2 Kings 2:23-25
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys. 25 And he went on to Mount Carmel and from there returned to Samaria.

 

[Saint Steven]

My word. Doesn't mean it can't be taken literally as well. But that's not where the true value is.

Let's not get the cart before the horse.
To me, the historical account is the horse and the take away is the cargo in the cart.
Without the horse, you're going nowhere. - lol

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I think this passage fits in the chapter. There is a whole story here about Elijah and Elisha and the double portion. Actually the double portion mantel is the BIG takeaway for me. This passage is a demonstration of that power. (be it all so terrible)

Possibly. This event is not counted among Elisha's double portion of miracles though.
THE SECOND BOOK OF KINGS - The Miracles of Elisha

Again, I'd be reluctant to accept this passage is about the power of God to terrorise blasphemers or whatever.

Moral: If you want some respect, it needs to be earned.

Haha, really? Don't think those 42 kids had time to repent of their folly. Still, I guess their buddies didn't come back with a howitzer.

[edit] Forgive me, but that's such a Yank exegesis. Get some respect with a vulgar display of superior firepower lol.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Let's not get the cart before the horse.
To me, the historical account is the horse and the take away is the cargo in the cart.
Without the horse, you're going nowhere. - lol

Nice, but I'd say the horse is Christ, the cart is Christ and the cargo is Christ. If we can't find Jesus all over that passage, we're not putting our hand to the plough right.

 

[public hermit]

So what's the takeaway on a literal reading - kids shouldn't mock bald prophets in bear territory?

The fact that we have some otherwise gratuitous numbers '42' and '2' indicates what the Hebrews call a 'remez' - a hint of something deeper going on. Rejoice, they say, and dig for the gold! The bald head I'd say is also relevant and symbolic.

Now I don't profess to have grasped the full meaning of the passage (I could be off-base already), but I won't dismiss it's deeper significance.

I don't want to sidetrack this conversation, but I did want to share this. I've been reading Hans Boersma's book Scripture as Real Presence: Sacramental Exegesis in the Early Church, where he discusses the allegorical interpretations of the early church and why they saw Christ throughout the OT. If you're interested, I highly recommend it.

https://www.amazon.com/Scripture-Real-Presence-Sacramental-Exegesis/dp/0801017033

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I don't want to sidetrack this conversation, but I did want to share this. I've been reading Hans Boersma's book Scripture as Real Presence: Sacramental Exegesis in the Early Church, where he discusses the allegorical interpretations of the early church and why they saw Christ throughout the OT. If you're interested, I highly recommend it.

https://www.amazon.com/Scripture-Real-Presence-Sacramental-Exegesis/dp/0801017033

No matter your starting point, you can surely take the Bible anywhere you want to go with allegorical interpretation.

 

[public hermit]

No matter your starting you, you can surely take the Bible anywhere you want to go with allegorical interpretation.

That's the charge, but it's not quite accurate. The early church's allegorical interpretations often went to the same place: Christ. I don't see that as a bad thing. Jesus even used that type of interpretation in John 3:14-15. That's where they learned it.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I don't want to sidetrack this conversation, but I did want to share this. I've been reading Hans Boersma's book Scripture as Real Presence: Sacramental Exegesis in the Early Church, where he discusses the allegorical interpretations of the early church and why they saw Christ throughout the OT. If you're interested, I highly recommend it.

https://www.amazon.com/Scripture-Real-Presence-Sacramental-Exegesis/dp/0801017033

Thanks. Yes, the early church was all about allegorical interpretation, because for the Jewish converts Christ was revealed as the fulfilment of the Torah, and for the Greeks the qualitative ideals of Platonism were perfected and the divinity revealed. Hearts and minds blown, scales fallen from eyes, spirit poured out on all flesh. Heaven has come to earth, and how!

Literal interpretation is contingent, but the symbolic is eternal and absolute. Hence 'the letter kills, only the spirit gives life'. That's Jesus teaching us to choose the spiritual/ allegorical sense over the literal, is it not?

Which I hope leads back towards the OP.

 

[public hermit]

Thanks. Yes, the early church was all about allegorical interpretation, because for the Jewish converts Christ was revealed as the fulfilment of the Torah, and for the Greeks the qualitative ideals of Platonism were perfected and the divinity revealed. Hearts and minds blown, scales fallen from eyes, spirit poured out on all flesh. Heaven has come to earth, and how!

Literal interpretation is contingent, but the symbolic is eternal and absolute. Hence 'the letter kills, only the spirit gives life'. That's Jesus teaching us to choose the spiritual/ allegorical sense over the literal, is it not?

Which I hope leads back towards the OP.

I won't go so far as to reject a literal interpretation, out and out. But, I am very interested in the early church's use of typological/allegorical interpretations. Jesus said the law and prophets spoke of him. I think he meant they spoke of him in ways beyond the fact that he fulfilled the law and promises. I also think modernity and historical/critical approaches have had an acidic effect on faith, in general. So, I am trying to learn from the ancients, as it were.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I won't go so far as to reject a literal interpretation, out and out. But, I am very interested in the early church's use of typological/allegorical interpretations. Jesus said the law and prophets spoke of him. I think he meant they spoke of him in ways beyond the fact that he fulfilled the law and promises. I also think modernity and historical/critical approaches have had an acidic effect on faith, in general. So, I am trying to learn from the ancients, as it were.

I'd agree that's the right approach. How can you possibly find Jesus in the OT with only the tools of literal interpretation? For example, the cross represents the new exodus. The OT is basically incoherent to us today without Christian typology. For the Jews, prophecy was more about pattern than anything else. So we see the logos, the pattern underlying the Torah revealed in Christ. It truly is one of the great proofs of the supernatural origin of the Bible, and hence the existence of God.

 

[public hermit]

How can you possibly find Jesus in the OT with only the tools of literal interpretation? For example, the cross represents the new exodus. The OT is basically incoherent to us today without Christian typology.

Yes, I agree. Mileto of Sardis' Peri Pascha, for example, is a fascinating interpretation of the Exodus (Passover) through the lens of Christ.

On the Passover - Melito of Sardis - Kerux 4:1 (May 1989)

 

[public hermit]

Yes, I agree. Mileto of Sardis' Peri Pascha, for example, is a fascinating interpretation of the Exodus (Passover) through the lens of Christ.

On the Passover - Melito of Sardis - Kerux 4:1 (May 1989)

Side note: Melito had a very high Christology. He is already speaking of the divine and human natures of Christ, united in the one Person without admixture. His death is dated c.190. This is significant given that the Councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon were in the 5th century.

Melito of Sardis - Wikipedia

 

[Tolworth John]

So, we agree?

Only that idolitory is to be avoided.

 

[Billy UK]

We Christians have a habit of equivocating over the phrase "word of God." We use it to refer to Christ, to statements and commands God makes in the scriptures, and to the scriptures.

Do you believe the scriptures and Jesus Christ are identical? Are they the same thing? Do you worship the scriptures? If you reply, "No" then determining their respective status, relationship, and function are important.

The passage you quoted is in reference to the book of Revelation and not the scriptures as a whole. Finally, your somewhat veiled threat that I am in danger of hell fire is duly noted. It has already been implied that I am Godless so you're in good company.

Its illogical to say that God only cares if people disrespect the book of revelation and not the rest when we see that God says all scripture is inspired by him.

According to the words of Jesus his Words are Spirit. The Scripture in the psalm I quoted says God would preserve his word , do you believe he failed to do that ?

John 6:63-70 (KJV)

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the WORDS that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT , and they are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

That's why I believe you should be careful as according to God Scripture is inspired by him and according to Jesus those words are Spirit.

When I read your statement I felt a spirit of doubt and a thought came into my mind that I cant trust God to get me through because the words I believe in are not true. I know that was a lie from Satan because I have done much research which proves that Gods word has been preserved so I know that thought of doubt was the enemy. Gods word is the only thing thats getting me through the most difficult storm of my life and when I listen to it I feel strength and hope. If Satan did that to me when I read your statement how many more people could he do that to through such types of statements and how can this at all help peoples faith.

I would also like to emphasize that all our words will be brought into judgement before God.

Matthew 12:36 (KJV)

36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

 

[Hillsage]

I'd agree that's the right approach. How can you possibly find Jesus in the OT with only the tools of literal interpretation?

Personally I don't think you can find JESUS in the OT at all. Though that is an oft repeated statement in the church, for sure. I don't believe it because Jesus was a man, consisting of spirit/soul/body. He was the WORD became FLESH. And in that flesh was the Sspirit of Christ, not the Holy Spirit of GOD. And that happened during that 30 period between the OT ending and the NT beginning.

Even Paul said;
2CO 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Now, the Sspirit of Christ, which was IN the man JESUS, I do agree was in the OT.

1PE 1:10 The prophets who prophesied of the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired about this salvation; 11 they inquired what person or time was indicated by the Spirit of Christ within them when predicting the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glory.

 

[public hermit]

I would also like to emphasize that all our words will be brought into judgement before God.

Look, bud. I'm glad you were able to get through that moment of doubt. And, I appreciate your concern. I will take it to heart.

 

[renniks]

Would you give up the faith if you knew some of the scriptures were not historically accurate and yet you knew that Jesus is in fact the living, resurrected Son of God through whom salvation is given?

The whole Bible points to Christ and who he is. If it is mostly error, why would one trust that Christ was who it says he is?

 

[public hermit]

The whole Bible points to Christ and who he is. If it is mostly error, why would one trust that Christ was who it says he is?

Great question. I'll consider that. Thanks.

 

[Billy UK]

Look, bud. I'm glad you were able to get through that moment of doubt. And, I appreciate your concern. I will take it to heart.

what do you believe about Jesus and why do you believe what you do about him and where did this information originate from ?

Myself personally when I recieved the Holy Spirit I began to experience God communicating with me. As I read the Bible what I read in Gospels began to explain what I was feeling and what was happening to me which is how I new in a personal experiential way that Scripture was truth even before I fully researched the history of its preservation.

 

[public hermit]

what do you believe about Jesus and why do you believe what you do about him and where did this information originate from ?

Myself personally when I recieved the Holy Spirit I began to experience God communicating with me. As I read the Bible what I read in Gospels began to explain what I was feeling and what was happening to me which is how I new in a personal experiential way that Scripture was truth even before I fully researched the history of its preservation.

I believe Jesus Christ is the Incarnated Son of God who died for our sins and rose again on the third day. This information originated with the witness of the apostles which has been handed down faithfully from one generation to the next and is recorded in the scriptures. Why do I believe this? God's grace and the witness of the Holy Spirit.

I'm grateful for your faith.