Faith in the living, resurrected Word (while the scriptures are only 50% historically accurate).

[redleghunter]

So Christ comes back with bloodlust and vengeance in his heart? Does he also spit swords at ppl, or could this be metaphorical/ symbolic language being used?

It’s all hearts and bunny rabbits and teddy bears at the Second coming?


Jesus will come as conquering King.

I know why don’t we just “spiritualize that” away too.

 

[redleghunter]

That's why it's dangerous to rely too heavily on the Bible without the Spirit as revealed in Christ. It is too easily found to contain contradictions and disjunctions on a literal reading, and this is exactly what gives rise to errors, which has certainly happened historically due to a process of accretion of religious dogma and manipulation by sinful men and the devil. Or do you say theology has never been healthier than today?

Judgment and Grace are not contradictions. The people of Israel and Judah found that out the hard way.

 

[public hermit]

Okay. I thought as much. You want a Thomas Jefferson Bible.

Pro Tip: If you have a God who cannot confront you, you have no God but yourself.

So, according to you, if I'm not a biblical inerrantist, then I'm Godless. I went from being evangelical to being Godless in only a few short posts. Whatever the case, I appreciate your sincere efforts at making a correct judgment about me. As for me, I pray God's blessing on you and yours.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

So Christ comes back with bloodlust and vengeance in his heart? Does he also spit swords at ppl, or could this be metaphorical/ symbolic language being used?

Sure it's metaphor — for something unspeakably horrible — God's wrath poured out on unrepentant sinners.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

So, according to you, if I'm not a biblical inerrantist, then I'm Godless. I went from being evangelical to being Godless in only a few short posts. Whatever the case, I appreciate your sincere efforts at making a correct judgment about me. As for me, I pray God's blessing on you and yours.

You aren't Godless. I didn't say that. It's just that when you seek to remove parts of God's Word that you disapprove of, the god you imagine is simply your own reflection in a mirror.

God's Word offends *all* people. Remove the "offense", rather than letting it shape you, and you only do harm to yourself.

 

[coffee4u]

I think it's important to treat the scriptures according to their purpose. And, I think it's important to avoid idolatry when it comes to how the scriptures are treated.

What is the purpose?

How is it to be treated?

 

[public hermit]

You aren't Godless. I didn't say that. It's just that when you seek to remove parts of God's Word that you disapprove of, the god you imagine is simply your own reflection in a mirror.

God's Word offends *all* people. Remove the "offense", rather than letting it shape you, and you only do harm to yourself.

This thread was never about passages that cause offense. It's about whether or not the scriptures are 100% historically accurate, and if the gospel is somehow dependant on them being 100% historically accurate. I am arguing it does not.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

This post is primarily for those who believe the scriptures (original documents) are an inerrant, perfect representation of historical events. Of course, anyone may comment. (This post may need to be moved, but I figured the topic would be controversial for some so I placed it here).

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that only 50% of the scriptures are (in some sense) historically accurate. Nonetheless, Jesus Christ is the resurrected Son of God whose death and resurrection are efficacious for salvation. Assuming this were true, how would this affect they way you think about the scriptures?

I get the impression from some, who argue for the inerrancy of the scriptures, that if something within the scriptures were not historically accurate, then we could not trust that Jesus Christ is Son of God, whose death and resurrection are efficacious for salvation. But, one does not necessarily follow from the other.

Logically speaking: there is a possible world where Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who is incarnated, dies and rises again, and yet there are no scriptures in the sense that we know them today. Someone might balk and say, "But, how would we know about it?" Well, any number of ways. A different set of writings, perhaps? The point being that the scriptures are not that which makes his death and resurrection efficacious for salvation. They are simply a means to knowing about Christ, as fallible as they might be.

Again, imagine a community of 1st generation Christians, a community that possesses no copy of the scriptures, they find a hermit, they proclaim the gospel in her hearing, and she comes to faith. What does she lack? She has faith in the resurrected Son of God, she has a community within which to worship and learn and grow, so what does she lack not having an opportunity to read the scriptures?

Would you give up the faith if you knew some of the scriptures were not historically accurate and yet you knew that Jesus is in fact the living, resurrected Son of God through whom salvation is given? I dare say you would have no good reason to do so. Thoughts? Comments?

Protestant Liberalism had a similar start.

 

[public hermit]

What is the purpose?

How is it to be treated?

I did answer this question in the thread. The primary purpose of the scriptures is to bring us to faith in the risen Christ. Beyond that, they are a guide to faith and practice.

They are to be treated as a means to knowing and following Christ. They are to be treated as means, not an end. Various examples of potential historical inaccuracies are brought up and discussed in the thread. The inerrantist is tasked with trying to reconcile or harmonize them. I am arguing that is not necessary.

 

[Billy UK]

Revelation 22:19 (KJV)

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

We see that God notices those who dishonor and disrespect word. Those who do it may have no worry or fear about doing it now just as the rich man had no worry or fear until he found himself in the fire. That rich man is still in that fire all these years later so while we are here and have access to mercy we should honor Gods word and not seek to damage others faith by casting doubt on it before the Lord.

Proverbs 15:3

“The eyes of the LORD arein every place, beholding the evil and the good.”

Psalm 12:6-7 (KJV)

6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

 

[public hermit]

We see that God notices those who dishonor and disrespect word. Those who do it may have no worry or fear about doing it now just as the rich man had no worry or fear until he found himself in the fire. That rich man is still in that fire all these years later so while we are here and have access to mercy we should honor Gods word and not seek to damage others faith by casting doubt on it before the Lord.

We Christians have a habit of equivocating over the phrase "word of God." We use it to refer to Christ, to statements and commands God makes in the scriptures, and to the scriptures.

Do you believe the scriptures and Jesus Christ are identical? Are they the same thing? Do you worship the scriptures? If you reply, "No" then determining their respective status, relationship, and function are important.

The passage you quoted is in reference to the book of Revelation and not the scriptures as a whole. Finally, your somewhat veiled threat that I am in danger of hell fire is duly noted. It has already been implied that I am Godless so you're in good company.

 

[Saint Steven]

You could take an alternate course and try to correct my misunderstanding.

This should help.

An "alternate" moves between two options.
An "alternative" is a different option from the one provided.

Therefore, an "alternate course" goes nowhere.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Don’t you see the different situations that the context brings to light? Elisha was facing a wicked generation. To the point even the children he encountered were speaking blasphemies to Elisha. These young lads or young boys obviously were not small children. They knew the ministry of Elijah especially how he defeated the prophets of Baal which made him undesirable number 1 with King Ahab and the kingdom of Israel.

They told Elisha go up you bald man go up. Which is get lost Elisha just as Elijah went up why don’t you get lost too. These youths were under the Law. Bethel was one of two centers of Idolatrous worship in the Kingdom.

2 Kings 2: NASB

23Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!”24When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number. 25He went from there to Mount Carmel, and from there he returned to Samaria. (NASB)

Verse 23 other Bible versions.

2 Kings 2:23 From there, Elisha went up to Bethel, and as he was walking up the road, a group of young men came out of the city and jeered at him, chanting, "Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!"


Finally, do you see the difference in the children who came to Jesus to hear him and bless them. No comparison to punk idolatrous youth who mocked the anointed prophet of God.

Or shall we also throw out the entire annihilation of cities like Sodom and Gomorrah? Did the children escape that judgement? Only Lot and his daughters survived.

All the Canaanite cities laid waste? Women children and cattle? So let’s chuck that out as well.

Or you can just claim Marcionism and be done with it.

There's no 'chucking out', we aim to understand these passages.

I daresay the answer is more spiritual. The youths represent the sinful thoughts and devil's tempting Elisha to allow doubt and fallen selfish ambition to creep in and put God to the test (like he tried by taunting Jesus in the desert and on the cross). The prophet shows no mercy and doesn't entertain those 'little' impulses, but instead squelches them before they grow (the furious beasts to tear them apart). So the villains here are spiritual (sin and the devil) not physical (juvenile delinquents).

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (Eph 6:12)

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Sure it's metaphor — for something unspeakably horrible — God's wrath poured out on unrepentant sinners.

God takes aim at sin and he who holds the power of death, in order to save His critters. Binds the strongman and seizes his goods. And in the process a bruised reed He won't break nor a dimly-burning candle snuff out.

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Jimmy: The One who has made it abundantly clear we will forgive our enemies 70 X 7 never gives up on we broken sinners of Adam One. What ultimately transpires is not close to horrible as the Love of God exceeding abundantly touches every last one.

God's love poured out on all sinners

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Jesus will come as conquering King.

I know why don’t we just “spiritualize that” away too.

I'll go one better:

Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm." (Jn 18:36)

 

[public hermit]

Protestant Liberalism had a similar start.

I would disagree. Protestant liberalism began with Schleiermacher who completely cast aside orthodoxy and began with "the feeling of absolute dependence." Unlike Schleiermacher, I do not reject orthodoxy, the divinity of Christ, the efficaciousness of his death and resurrection, nor the scriptures that communicate these things to us. I am trying to show the proper function of the scriptures, in part, by exposing an unneeded emphasis. That is all.

 

[Saint Steven]

Frankly, I don't see metaphorical intent in this writing. It is a historical account. What happened with Elisha on the way between Bethel and Mount Carmel. At the beginning of the chapter Elijah is taken up to heaven in a whirlwind and the cloak is left for Elisha to use. Do we take this as metaphor as well?

2 Kings 2:23-25
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys. 25 And he went on to Mount Carmel and from there returned to Samaria.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Frankly, I don't see metaphorical intent in this writing. It is a historical account. What happened with Elisha on the way between Bethel and Mount Carmel. At the beginning of the chapter Elijah is taken up to heaven in a whirlwind and the cloak is left for Elisha to use. Do we take this as metaphor as well?

2 Kings 2:23-25
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys. 25 And he went on to Mount Carmel and from there returned to Samaria.

So what's the takeaway on a literal reading - kids shouldn't mock bald prophets in bear territory?

The fact that we have some otherwise gratuitous numbers '42' and '2' indicates what the Hebrews call a 'remez' - a hint of something deeper going on. Rejoice, they say, and dig for the gold! The bald head I'd say is also relevant and symbolic.

Now I don't profess to have grasped the full meaning of the passage (I could be off-base already), but I won't dismiss it's deeper significance.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

At the beginning of the chapter Elijah is taken up to heaven in a whirlwind and the cloak is left for Elisha to use. Do we take this as metaphor as well?

My word. Doesn't mean it can't be taken literally as well. But that's not where the true value is.