Faith in the living, resurrected Word (while the scriptures are only 50% historically accurate).

[Saint Steven]

This introduction is informative.
It says it was written by an "investigator", not an eyewitness.
Which would mean that Luke didn't write it.
Written as an "orderly account". In contrast to other existing "disorderly" accounts?

Luke 1:1-4
Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

 

[Saint Steven]

You're right. We do talk as if Luke wrote it, when in fact none of the gospel writers are named within the gospels. They are all essentially anonymous, as far as internal evidence is concerned.

Right. The name Luke is only found three times in the whole NT.
And zero times in the gospel of Luke, or in the Acts of the Apostles. (claimed authorship?)

Colossians 4:14
Our dear friend Luke, the doctor, and Demas send greetings.

2 Timothy 4:11
Only Luke is with me. Get Mark and bring him with you, because he is helpful to me in my ministry.

Philemon 1:24
And so do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas and Luke, my fellow workers.

 

[public hermit]

But did the gospel writers have access to the letters Paul wrote?

Going back to Paul, for a minute. Parts of 1 Cor. 15:3-7 read like an early creedal statement.

"For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles."

These statements that Paul says he received and is handing down (I would argue) is what eventually developed into the Rule of Faith. These statements predate the gospels. The earliest Christians didn't have the gospels. What they had were oral traditions and very quickly they developed creedal statements (condensed statements) to capture the salient features of those traditions. So, having conflicting traditions is not a problem so long as the salient/important features obtain-death for sins, resurrection, in accordance with the promises found in the OT. Notice, what is the important take away from the OT is not that Jonah was swallowed by a whale, but those features that spoke of Christ.

I think the early Christians are very helpful in putting the scriptures into proper perspective. So what if the fig tree accounts don't perfectly coincide? Both gospels communicate the saving death and resurrection of Christ. It's not the perfection of the gospels that matters, it's the gospel in the gospels that matters.

 

[Justin Robinson]

While I get and understand the OP, my answer is simple:

1. No, I don’t believe that the scriptures in the Old

 

[Justin Robinson]

While I get and understand the OP, my answer is simple:

1. No, I don’t believe that the scriptures in the Old Testament have to be 100% accurate in order to receive salvation through Jesus. The trinity is the trinity regardless of anything.

2. I do believe that the whole Bible is truth and The Word of the Living God.

 

[Saint Steven]

Going back to Paul, for a minute. Parts of 1 Cor. 15:3-7 read like an early creedal statement.

"For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles."

These statements that Paul says he received and is handing down (I would argue) is what eventually developed into the Rule of Faith. These statements predate the gospels. The earliest Christians didn't have the gospels. What they had were oral traditions and very quickly they developed creedal statements (condensed statements) to capture the salient features of those traditions. So, having conflicting traditions is not a problem so long as the salient/important features obtain-death for sins, resurrection, in accordance with the promises found in the OT. Notice, what is the important take away from the OT is not that Jonah was swallowed by a whale, but those features that spoke of Christ.

I think the early Christians are very helpful in putting the scriptures into proper perspective. So what if the fig tree accounts don't perfectly coincide? Both gospels communicate the saving death and resurrection of Christ. It's not the perfection of the gospels that matters, it's the gospel in the gospels that matters.

Agreed.
There were other writings of the early church too, that didn't make the cut for the NT canon.
The Didache, or The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, is a good example. It was an attempt to standardize Christian beliefs. Basically a how-to manual for gentiles, if I remember correctly. And is dated in the same time frame as the NT writings. (60-80 AD?) I have a list somewhere of the comparative writing dates for all (most) of the early church writings including the canonized books. I'll have to see if I can find it to post here. Many don't understand that.

 

[Saint Steven]

While I get and understand the OP, my answer is simple:

1. No, I don’t believe that the scriptures in the Old Testament have to be 100% accurate in order to receive salvation through Jesus. The trinity is the trinity regardless of anything.

2. I do believe that the whole Bible is truth and The Word of the Living God.

Welcome to the forum.

What do you do with this?

These accounts of Jesus cursing the fig tree do not match.
Would this not be enough to prove that the NT is not 100% historically accurate?
One account says the tree withered immediately, the other account says they found it withered the next day. They can't both be historically correct.

Matthew 21:18-20 NIV
Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.
20 When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.

Mark 11:12-14, 20-21 NIV
The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it. ...
20 In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21 Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!”

 

[Saint Steven]

Here's that list.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chronological List of Early Christian Writings
Includes canonical NT works (bolded)


Passion Narrative, AD 30-60

Lost Sayings Gospel Q, AD 40- 80

1 Thessalonians, AD 50-60

Philippians, AD 50-60

Galatians, AD 50-60

1 Corinthians, AD 50-60

2 Corinthians, AD 50-60

Romans, AD 50-60

Philemon, AD 50-60

Colossians, AD 50- 80

Signs Gospel, AD 50-90

Book of Hebrews, AD 50-95

Didache, AD 50-120

Gospel of Thomas, AD 50-140

Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel, AD

Sophia of Jesus Christ, AD 50-140 50-200

Gospel of Mark, AD 65- 80

Epistle of James, AD 70-100

Egerton Gospel, AD 70-120

Gospel of Peter, AD 70-160

Secret Mark, AD 70-160

Fayyum Fragment, AD 70-200

Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, AD 70-200

Mara Bar Serapion, AD 73-200

2 Thessalonians, AD 80-100

Ephesians, AD 80-100

Gospel of Matthew, AD 80-100

1 Peter, AD 80-110

Epistle of Barnabas, AD 80-120

Gospel of Luke, AD 80-130

Acts of the Apostles, AD 80-130

1 Clement, AD 80-140

Gospel of the Egyptians, AD 80-150

Gospel of the Hebrews, AD 80-150

Christian Sibyllines, AD 80-250

Apocalypse of John, AD 90-95

Gospel of John, AD 90-120

1 John, AD 90-120

2 John, AD 90-120

3 John, AD 90-120

Epistle of Jude, AD 90-120

Flavius Josephus, AD 93

1 Timothy, AD 100-150

2 Timothy, AD 100-150

Titus, AD 100-150

Apocalypse of Peter, AD 100-150

Secret Book of James, AD 100-150

Preaching of Peter, AD 100-150

Gospel of the Ebionites, AD 100-160

Gospel of the Nazoreans, AD 100-160

Shepherd of Hermas, AD 100-160

2 Peter, AD 100-160

Odes of Solomon, AD 100-200

Book of Elchasai, AD 101-220

Ignatius of Antioch, AD 105-115

Polycarp to the Philippians, AD 110-140

Papias, AD 110-140

Oxyrhynchus 840 Gospel, AD 110-160

Traditions of Matthias, AD 110-160

Pliny the Younger, AD 111-112

Suetonius, AD 115

Tacitus, AD 115

Quadratus of Athens, AD 120-130

Apology of Aristides, AD 120-130

Basilides, AD 120-140

Naassene Fragment, AD 120-140

Valentinus, AD 120-160

Apocryphon of John, AD 120-180

Gospel of Mary, AD 120-180

Dialogue of the Savior, AD 120-180

Gospel of the Savior, AD 120-180

2nd Apocalypse of James, AD 120-180

Trimorphic Protennoia, AD 120-180

Marcion, AD 130-140

Aristo of Pella, AD 130-150

Epiphanes On Righteousness, AD 130-160

Ophite Diagrams, AD 130-160

2 Clement, AD 130-160

Gospel of Judas, AD 130-170

Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus, AD 130-200

Epistula Apostolorum, AD 140-150

Ptolemy, AD 140-160

Isidore, AD 140-160

Fronto, AD 140-170

Infancy Gospel of James, AD 140-170

Infancy Gospel of Thomas, AD 140-170

Gospel of Truth, AD 140-180

Martyrdom of Polycarp, AD 150-160

Justin Martyr, AD 150-160

Excerpts of Theodotus, AD 150-180

Heracleon, AD 150-180

Ascension of Isaiah, AD 150-200

Acts of Peter, AD 150-200

Acts of John, AD 150-200

Acts of Paul, AD 150-200

Acts of Andrew, AD 150-200

Acts of Peter and the Twelve, AD 150-225

Book of Thomas the Contender, AD 150-225

Fifth and Sixth Books of Esra, AD 150-250

Authoritative Teaching, AD 150-300

Coptic Apocalypse of Paul, AD 150-300

Discourse on the Eighth and Ninth, AD 150-300

Melchizedek, AD 150-300

Acts of Pilate, AD 150-400

Anti-Marcionite Prologues, AD 150-400

Tatian's Address to the Greeks, AD 160-170

Claudius Apollinaris, AD 160-180

Apelles, AD 160-180

Julius Cassianus, AD 160-180

Octavius of Minucius Felix, AD 160-250

Acts of Carpus, AD 161-180

Melito of Sardis, AD 165-175

Hegesippus, AD 165-175

Dionysius of Corinth, AD 165-175

Lucian of Samosata, AD 165-175

Marcus Aurelius, AD 167

Diatessaron, AD 170-175

Dura-Europos Gospel Harmony, AD 170-200

Muratorian Canon, AD 170-200

Treatise on the Resurrection, AD 170-200

Letter of Peter to Philip, AD 170-220

Athenagoras of Athens, AD 175-180

Irenaeus of Lyons, AD 175-185

Rhodon, AD 175-185

Theophilus of Caesarea, AD 175-185

Galen, AD 175-190

Celsus, AD 178

Letter from Vienna and Lyons, AD 178

Passion of the Scillitan Martyrs, AD 180

Theophilus of Antioch, AD 180-185

Acts of Apollonius, AD 180-185

Bardesanes, AD 180-220

Kerygmata Petrou, AD 180-220

Hippolytus of Rome, AD 180-230

1st Apocalypse of James, AD 180-250

Gospel of Philip, AD 180-250

Clement of Alexandria, AD 182-202

Maximus of Jerusalem, AD 185-195

Polycrates of Ephesus, AD 185-195

Talmud, AD 188-217

Victor I, AD 189-199

Pantaenus, AD 190-210

Anonymous Anti-Montanist, AD 193

Inscription of Abercius, AD 193-216

Tertullian, AD 197-220

Serapion of Antioch, AD 200-210

Apollonius, AD 200-210

Caius, AD 200-220

Philostratus, AD 200-220

Acts of Thomas, AD 200-225

Didascalia, AD 200-250

Books of Jeu, AD 200-250

Pistis Sophia, AD 200-300

Coptic Apocalypse of Peter, AD 200-300

Acts of Perpetua and Felicitas, AD 203

Origen, AD 203-250

 

[section9+1]

Whether bears attacked anyone in the Elisha story has little to do with Jesus, but the same book that tells of Jesus tells the Elisha story.
If I wrote a scholarly book about the solar system that was entirely accurate as far as science knows today, but still insisted in it that the earth was flat, how much credibility would you give to my book? Would you recommend it to others?
I don't really know about Elisha's bears or even what Jesus did, but I choose to accept it all on faith because that is what I am supposed to do if I expect to live by faith. And trust that the one who inspired the book was true and honest.

 

[Justin Robinson]

Welcome to the forum.

What do you do with this?

These accounts of Jesus cursing the fig tree do not match.
Would this not be enough to prove that the NT is not 100% historically accurate?
One account says the tree withered immediately, the other account says they found it withered the next day. They can't both be historically correct.

Matthew 21:18-20 NIV
Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.
20 When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.

Mark 11:12-14, 20-21 NIV
The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it. ...
20 In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21 Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!”

Thanks for the welcome!

Here is what I can tell ya. Personally, I’m not the slightest bit concerned if a scripture or a story doesn’t align precisely. If it’s told by different authors as it is here, I don’t know if I could even truly expect things to be the exact same. But, as is in this instance, both say the tree withered, which is the point of the situation. If the foundation of the stories, parables, prophecies, etc.. align, then there is no need to nitpick and try to dissect the Word of God IMO. Because when it’s all said and done, I either choose to believe or I don’t.

Hope you have a dope Christmas Steven!!

 

[Hillsage]

JER 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.

If this verse IS TRUE, then it refutes OLD TESTAMENT bible infallibility. If the above verse is NOT TRUE , then it refutes infallibility, because it shouldn't be in the bible.

Below is my SCHOLARLY SOURCE for justifying the above TRUTH and applying it to the NEW TESTAMENT also.

One of the most common biblical manuscripts used to make our modern English translations is known today as the Nestle Text. Yet it was Prof. Eberhard Nestle himself who warned us in his Einfhrung in die Textkritik des griechischen Testaments: "Learned men, so called Correctores were, following the church meeting at Nicea 325 AD, selected by the church authorities to scrutinize the sacred texts and rewrite them in order to correct their meaning in accordance with the views which the church had just sanctioned."


ALSO; One of the oldest copies of the Bible which dates back to the fifth century is the Codex Bezae, of which the Britannica writes: "Codex Bezae… has a text that is very different from other witnesses. Codex Bezae has many distinctive longer and shorter readings and seems almost to be a separate edition. Its 'Acts, for example, is one-tenth longer than usual’". How can we have a Bible that is said to be "almost… a separate edition"?

I love all bibles, but the newer translations the least, for the same reason quoted from Nestle above

HENCE, THE QUOTE BELOW IS USED FOR MY SIGNATURE LINE ;

St. Jerome wrote: "They write down not what they find but what they think is the meaning; and while they attempt to rectify the errors of others, they merely expose their own" (Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5).

 

[public hermit]

JER 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.

If this verse IS TRUE, then it refutes OLD TESTAMENT bible infallibility. If the above verse is NOT TRUE , then it refutes infallibility, because it shouldn't be in the bible.

Below is my SCHOLARLY SOURCE for justifying the above TRUTH and applying it to the NEW TESTAMENT also.

One of the most common biblical manuscripts used to make our modern English translations is known today as the Nestle Text. Yet it was Prof. Eberhard Nestle himself who warned us in his Einfhrung in die Textkritik des griechischen Testaments: "Learned men, so called Correctores were, following the church meeting at Nicea 325 AD, selected by the church authorities to scrutinize the sacred texts and rewrite them in order to correct their meaning in accordance with the views which the church had just sanctioned."


ALSO; One of the oldest copies of the Bible which dates back to the fifth century is the Codex Bezae, of which the Britannica writes: "Codex Bezae… has a text that is very different from other witnesses. Codex Bezae has many distinctive longer and shorter readings and seems almost to be a separate edition. Its 'Acts, for example, is one-tenth longer than usual’". How can we have a Bible that is said to be "almost… a separate edition"?

I love all bibles, but the newer translations the least, for the same reason quoted from Nestle above

HENCE, THE QUOTE BELOW IS USED FOR MY SIGNATURE LINE ;

St. Jerome wrote: "They write down not what they find but what they think is the meaning; and while they attempt to rectify the errors of others, they merely expose their own" (Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5).

Interesting post! Thank you for sharing.

 

[NBB]

Here's that list.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chronological List of Early Christian Writings
Includes canonical NT works (bolded)


Passion Narrative, AD 30-60

Lost Sayings Gospel Q, AD 40- 80

1 Thessalonians, AD 50-60

Philippians, AD 50-60

Galatians, AD 50-60

1 Corinthians, AD 50-60

2 Corinthians, AD 50-60

Romans, AD 50-60

Philemon, AD 50-60

Colossians, AD 50- 80

Signs Gospel, AD 50-90

Book of Hebrews, AD 50-95

Didache, AD 50-120

Gospel of Thomas, AD 50-140

Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel, AD

Sophia of Jesus Christ, AD 50-140 50-200

Gospel of Mark, AD 65- 80

Epistle of James, AD 70-100

Egerton Gospel, AD 70-120

Gospel of Peter, AD 70-160

Secret Mark, AD 70-160

Fayyum Fragment, AD 70-200

Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, AD 70-200

Mara Bar Serapion, AD 73-200

2 Thessalonians, AD 80-100

Ephesians, AD 80-100

Gospel of Matthew, AD 80-100

1 Peter, AD 80-110

Epistle of Barnabas, AD 80-120

Gospel of Luke, AD 80-130

Acts of the Apostles, AD 80-130

1 Clement, AD 80-140

Gospel of the Egyptians, AD 80-150

Gospel of the Hebrews, AD 80-150

Christian Sibyllines, AD 80-250

Apocalypse of John, AD 90-95

Gospel of John, AD 90-120

1 John, AD 90-120

2 John, AD 90-120

3 John, AD 90-120

Epistle of Jude, AD 90-120

Flavius Josephus, AD 93

1 Timothy, AD 100-150

2 Timothy, AD 100-150

Titus, AD 100-150

Apocalypse of Peter, AD 100-150

Secret Book of James, AD 100-150

Preaching of Peter, AD 100-150

Gospel of the Ebionites, AD 100-160

Gospel of the Nazoreans, AD 100-160

Shepherd of Hermas, AD 100-160

2 Peter, AD 100-160

Odes of Solomon, AD 100-200

Book of Elchasai, AD 101-220

Ignatius of Antioch, AD 105-115

Polycarp to the Philippians, AD 110-140

Papias, AD 110-140

Oxyrhynchus 840 Gospel, AD 110-160

Traditions of Matthias, AD 110-160

Pliny the Younger, AD 111-112

Suetonius, AD 115

Tacitus, AD 115

Quadratus of Athens, AD 120-130

Apology of Aristides, AD 120-130

Basilides, AD 120-140

Naassene Fragment, AD 120-140

Valentinus, AD 120-160

Apocryphon of John, AD 120-180

Gospel of Mary, AD 120-180

Dialogue of the Savior, AD 120-180

Gospel of the Savior, AD 120-180

2nd Apocalypse of James, AD 120-180

Trimorphic Protennoia, AD 120-180

Marcion, AD 130-140

Aristo of Pella, AD 130-150

Epiphanes On Righteousness, AD 130-160

Ophite Diagrams, AD 130-160

2 Clement, AD 130-160

Gospel of Judas, AD 130-170

Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus, AD 130-200

Epistula Apostolorum, AD 140-150

Ptolemy, AD 140-160

Isidore, AD 140-160

Fronto, AD 140-170

Infancy Gospel of James, AD 140-170

Infancy Gospel of Thomas, AD 140-170

Gospel of Truth, AD 140-180

Martyrdom of Polycarp, AD 150-160

Justin Martyr, AD 150-160

Excerpts of Theodotus, AD 150-180

Heracleon, AD 150-180

Ascension of Isaiah, AD 150-200

Acts of Peter, AD 150-200

Acts of John, AD 150-200

Acts of Paul, AD 150-200

Acts of Andrew, AD 150-200

Acts of Peter and the Twelve, AD 150-225

Book of Thomas the Contender, AD 150-225

Fifth and Sixth Books of Esra, AD 150-250

Authoritative Teaching, AD 150-300

Coptic Apocalypse of Paul, AD 150-300

Discourse on the Eighth and Ninth, AD 150-300

Melchizedek, AD 150-300

Acts of Pilate, AD 150-400

Anti-Marcionite Prologues, AD 150-400

Tatian's Address to the Greeks, AD 160-170

Claudius Apollinaris, AD 160-180

Apelles, AD 160-180

Julius Cassianus, AD 160-180

Octavius of Minucius Felix, AD 160-250

Acts of Carpus, AD 161-180

Melito of Sardis, AD 165-175

Hegesippus, AD 165-175

Dionysius of Corinth, AD 165-175

Lucian of Samosata, AD 165-175

Marcus Aurelius, AD 167

Diatessaron, AD 170-175

Dura-Europos Gospel Harmony, AD 170-200

Muratorian Canon, AD 170-200

Treatise on the Resurrection, AD 170-200

Letter of Peter to Philip, AD 170-220

Athenagoras of Athens, AD 175-180

Irenaeus of Lyons, AD 175-185

Rhodon, AD 175-185

Theophilus of Caesarea, AD 175-185

Galen, AD 175-190

Celsus, AD 178

Letter from Vienna and Lyons, AD 178

Passion of the Scillitan Martyrs, AD 180

Theophilus of Antioch, AD 180-185

Acts of Apollonius, AD 180-185

Bardesanes, AD 180-220

Kerygmata Petrou, AD 180-220

Hippolytus of Rome, AD 180-230

1st Apocalypse of James, AD 180-250

Gospel of Philip, AD 180-250

Clement of Alexandria, AD 182-202

Maximus of Jerusalem, AD 185-195

Polycrates of Ephesus, AD 185-195

Talmud, AD 188-217

Victor I, AD 189-199

Pantaenus, AD 190-210

Anonymous Anti-Montanist, AD 193

Inscription of Abercius, AD 193-216

Tertullian, AD 197-220

Serapion of Antioch, AD 200-210

Apollonius, AD 200-210

Caius, AD 200-220

Philostratus, AD 200-220

Acts of Thomas, AD 200-225

Didascalia, AD 200-250

Books of Jeu, AD 200-250

Pistis Sophia, AD 200-300

Coptic Apocalypse of Peter, AD 200-300

Acts of Perpetua and Felicitas, AD 203

Origen, AD 203-250

How apocalypse was written on 90 -100 if john was young when Jesus lived that makes him like 120 years old when he wrote that? sorry for my 'ignorance' but how that works.

 

[Justin Robinson]

JER 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.

Obviously in context, this is Jeremiah being told to tell the Israelites these things from the Lord. But...

Do you believe that the scribes in that time wrote things to accommodate the way they lived? Picked and chose what they wanted to write to make it easier to live and not be disobedient?

To me, it would seem that they (Scribes, including the Israelites) knew what was right and wrong. The scribes knew the Lord and His law, but they could have manipulated it to be less condemning and harsh.

It seems no different from the Pharisees and Sadducees. They too knew the law, but didn't live by it. Heck, even Nicodemus didn't know what being born again was, which is why Jesus called him out.

Just wondering...

 

[1Reformedman]

This post is primarily for those who believe the scriptures (original documents) are an inerrant, perfect representation of historical events. Of course, anyone may comment. (This post may need to be moved, but I figured the topic would be controversial for some so I placed it here).

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that only 50% of the scriptures are (in some sense) historically accurate. Nonetheless, Jesus Christ is the resurrected Son of God whose death and resurrection are efficacious for salvation. Assuming this were true, how would this affect they way you think about the scriptures?

I get the impression from some, who argue for the inerrancy of the scriptures, that if something within the scriptures were not historically accurate, then we could not trust that Jesus Christ is Son of God, whose death and resurrection are efficacious for salvation. But, one does not necessarily follow from the other.

Logically speaking: there is a possible world where Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who is incarnated, dies and rises again, and yet there are no scriptures in the sense that we know them today. Someone might balk and say, "But, how would we know about it?" Well, any number of ways. A different set of writings, perhaps? The point being that the scriptures are not that which makes his death and resurrection efficacious for salvation. They are simply a means to knowing about Christ, as fallible as they might be.

Again, imagine a community of 1st generation Christians, a community that possesses no copy of the scriptures, they find a hermit, they proclaim the gospel in her hearing, and she comes to faith. What does she lack? She has faith in the resurrected Son of God, she has a community within which to worship and learn and grow, so what does she lack not having an opportunity to read the scriptures?

Would you give up the faith if you knew some of the scriptures were not historically accurate and yet you knew that Jesus is in fact the living, resurrected Son of God through whom salvation is given? I dare say you would have no good reason to do so. Thoughts? Comments?

Uh the old testament was the schoolmaster for the early church and the word of God is to be written on the tablet of your heart not just in ink on paper. The Holy Spirit is the best teacher there is about Jesus.

 

[Saint Steven]

Hope you have a dope Christmas Steven!!

Oh my... - lol
Don't be trippin' -- keep it real, Dawg.

 

[Saint Steven]

Here is what I can tell ya. Personally, I’m not the slightest bit concerned if a scripture or a story doesn’t align precisely. If it’s told by different authors as it is here, I don’t know if I could even truly expect things to be the exact same. But, as is in this instance, both say the tree withered, which is the point of the situation. If the foundation of the stories, parables, prophecies, etc.. align, then there is no need to nitpick and try to dissect the Word of God IMO. Because when it’s all said and done, I either choose to believe or I don’t.

I agree.
But the OP question is about inerrancy and faith.
In this case we have two different recollections of the same event.
This is only natural and I agree that it basically isn't a big deal.
But doesn't a claim of inerrancy mean the text is supernatural? (not natural)

 

[Saint Steven]

How apocalypse was written on 90 -100 if john was young when Jesus lived that makes him like 120 years old when he wrote that? sorry for my 'ignorance' but how that works.

That's a great question.
The "experts" have dated these.
But I would advise against letting them date your sister. - lol

 

[Hillsage]

How apocalypse was written on 90 -100 if john was young when Jesus lived that makes him like 120 years old when he wrote that? sorry for my 'ignorance' but how that works.

Have you ever heard the saying; “The wandering JEW.”? Ever wonder about “JEW” being singular?

John 20:21When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, “Lord, what about this man?” 22Jesus said to him, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!” 23So the saying spread abroad among the brethren that this disciple was not to die;....

 

[NBB]

Have you ever heard the saying; “The wandering JEW.”? Ever wonder about “JEW” being singular?

John 20:21When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, “Lord, what about this man?” 22Jesus said to him, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!” 23So the saying spread abroad among the brethren that this disciple was not to die;....

Thanks for the interesting theory, but i read other disciples letters dates with same problems, why write the gospel when you are 100 years old, when probably if you wait and die, all that would be lost or memory can fail etc etc, i don't believe this dates or something is wrong.