Faith and works not that hard to figure out.

Thomas Cooper

Active Member
Jan 24, 2019
53
22
Billings
✟17,491.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I missed this one. I am suggesting that the word Roman is a later addition primarily from the counter or catholic reformation. The Church catholic was a bigger tent prior to the counter reformation than after.


If Rome left it as a mystery as the East does without a forced explanation I could live with said definition. But as I said before, Rome dogmatized the explanation and made it De Fide dogma.

Perhaps, but the words are different in Greek and my criticism stands.


That's not circular reasoning. I am not trying to prove something beginning with a conclusion. I am observing the fact there are not sacerdotal priests in the NT. Nor are there any in the early church rather it is my position that Priests were a later addition which both scripture and history cleary agree. In fact there is an extended discourse against the idea of a priesthood called Hebrews in the NT. That is hardly circular reasoning rather it is sound exegesis.

That was my fault. I got sloppy with my categories. But that leads us back to the definition using the doctrine of transubstantiation. If there is a change then yes but I know that's not the case because I can taste the alcohol. Thats why I adhere to the Sacramental Union rather than transubstantiation.


Again, a distinction without a difference. I get what you are trying to say but the word thanksgiving does not mean sacrifice it means thanksgiving.

That first point is interesting; I’ve never heard that claim before.

As for the Eucharist, you must remember that the East was once in communion with the West. Their theological viewpoints today are almost entirely identical and this includes the Eucharist. But this we will surely differ on as I’ll say the Church Fathers taught transubstantiation, while you’ll say they didn’t. So we’ll have to leave it at that.

As for the Greek, I’ll accept your citicism.

I’ll take your defense against circular reasoning based on that expanded explanation. However, I’ll disagree with Scripture and history supporting the lack of priests. I’m confused on your reference to Hebrews. Are you refering to Hebrews 7, which contrasts Jesus’s priesthood from the Levitical priesthood? Or is there another passage I’ve missed?

As for “tasting the alcohol,” I would like to rebuttal. First, and you’re not going to like this at all, but as a Lutheran, you don’t have the Apostolic priesthood so your priests aren’t consecrated by God to consecrate the gifts. Therefore, you’re correct in saying you’ve tasted the alcohol because you’ve been drinking wine. I know you’re going to strongly disagree with that, so let’s put that aside.
I have received the crucified Blood of Christ. This I believe. I taste what appears to be alcohol every time. This is where faith comes in. I have never seen God aside from the Eucharist. But that does not suggest monism or atheism. When I receive the host, it feels like, and tastes like bread. But I trust the words of Christ when He said “This Is my body.”

Again, these issues should probably be discussed elsewhere.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: anna ~ grace
Upvote 0

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Site Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,123
743
Los Angeles
✟192,604.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Good morning (from where I am)
I’ll try to answer you point by point here.

First, I’ll agree that the reformers’ initial goal was to fix the Church, not to destroy her.

Secondly, I now understand the way you use the word “salvation.” Thank you for the clarification.

Thirdly, I appreciate that reference to proto evangelium; that’s one of my favorite scripture passages/ theological ideas

And now, having understood your argument pretty well, I can safely say that I simply disagree with you theologically. At the end of the day, I trust Jesus Christ, I trust the Holy Spirit, and I trust the Apostles.

Thank you for sharing. Thanks for being respectful and friendly in our theological discussions. I am only sharing the Gospel that Paul preached. I have no ill feelings towards you or anybody. But I will defend the Gospel that Paul preached from distortion, perversions, and heresies.
Jesus Christ said, “When the Son of Man comes as King and all the angels with him, he will sit on his royal throne, and the people of all the nations will be gathered before him. Then he will divide them into two groups, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the righteous people on his right and the others on his left. Then the King will say to the people on his right, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father! Come and possess the kingdom which has been prepared for you ever since the creation of the world. I was hungry and you fed me, thirsty and you gave me a drink; I was a stranger and you received me in your homes, naked and you clothed me; I was sick and you took care of me, in prison and you visited me.’ “The righteous will then answer him, ‘When, Lord, did we ever see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you a drink? When did we ever see you a stranger and welcome you in our homes, or naked and clothe you? When did we ever see you sick or in prison, and visit you?’ The King will reply, ‘I tell you, whenever you did this for one of the least important of these members of my family, you did it for me!’ “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Away from me, you that are under God's curse! Away to the eternal fire which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels! I was hungry but you would not feed me, thirsty but you would not give me a drink; I was a stranger but you would not welcome me in your homes, naked but you would not clothe me; I was sick and in prison but you would not take care of me.’ “Then they will answer him, ‘When, Lord, did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and would not help you?’ The King will reply, ‘I tell you, whenever you refused to help one of these least important ones, you refused to help me.’ These, then, will be sent off to eternal punishment, but the righteous will go to eternal life.’”
‭‭(Matthew‬ ‭25:31-46‬ ‭GNBDK‬‬)
- This parable of the judgement of the nations is very clear. The damned address God as Lord, but did not help their fellow man.

Once again the common caricature of the Reformation is that they deny good works of the believer. And this couldn't be further from the truth. Our Faith is a living Faith, which produces good works. These fruits flow from our Justification in Christ Alone! In the parable you quote, Jesus tells us to care for our brothers & sisters, in whatever shortcomings they have; give food, clothes, shelter, love, whatever needs there is. Not just WISH them well, and go our merry way. The Reformers are in full agreement with this.

But this is not the CAUSE or GROUND of our Justification. If you say it is, then you just contradicted what you have written in your previous post; that we are saved by Grace through Faith, and not by works, correct? Its either by Grace or Works that we are saved, it cannot be both. The sinner's Justification can only be found in Christ who came to save the ungodly! What can a sinner offer God in exchange for Salvation? You immediately just to the Sanctification of the believer, or conflate Justification into Sanctification, or turn Gospel into Law, and Law into Gospel, which is no Gospel at all. The reason you fail to see, how amazing and rich God's Grace really is; is because you fail to see the horrible predicament we are in after the Great fall! So you make no mention of it. There is no Law speech from you on it. Well maybe a little of it for the believer, but no mention of it for the sinner!

Romans 3:19Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

I have presented other passages to you, that you avoided. I hope you will address this one for us? But Paul continues to address our plight before a Holy Righteous Judge.


The Righteousness of God Through Faith​

Romans 3:
21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

I hope you will read this and understand what Paul is saying here. Because this is good news for sinners, not the righteous!

Hope this helps???

In Christ Alone through Faith Alone apart from works! Romans 3:28
 
Upvote 0

Athanasius377

Is playing with his Tonka truck.
Site Supporter
Apr 22, 2017
1,371
1,515
Cincinnati
✟711,093.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I’ll take your defense against circular reasoning based on that expanded explanation. However, I’ll disagree with Scripture and history supporting the lack of priests. I’m confused on your reference to Hebrews. Are you refering to Hebrews 7, which contrasts Jesus’s priesthood from the Levitical priesthood? Or is there another passage I’ve missed?
I was referring to the entire book but Hebrews 7 can be a summary of sorts.
As for “tasting the alcohol,” I would like to rebuttal. First, and you’re not going to like this at all, but as a Lutheran, you don’t have the Apostolic priesthood so your priests aren’t consecrated by God to consecrate the gifts. Therefore, you’re correct in saying you’ve tasted the alcohol because you’ve been drinking wine. I know you’re going to strongly disagree with that, so let’s put that aside.
I have received the crucified Blood of Christ. This I believe. I taste what appears to be alcohol every time. This is where faith comes in. I have never seen God aside from the Eucharist. But that does not suggest monism or atheism. When I receive the host, it feels like, and tastes like bread. But I trust the words of Christ when He said “This Is my body.”

Well, there's no surprise here. That's the RC claim. Again this goes back to whether there are NT priests or not. Of course you received the crucified Lord. We differ in doctrine here but that doesn't change what the Lord promised 1 Cor 11.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ladodgers6
Upvote 0

Thomas Cooper

Active Member
Jan 24, 2019
53
22
Billings
✟17,491.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Thank you for sharing. Thanks for being respectful and friendly in our theological discussions. I am only sharing the Gospel that Paul preached. I have no ill feelings towards you or anybody. But I will defend the Gospel that Paul preached from distortion, perversions, and heresies.


Once again the common caricature of the Reformation is that they deny good works of the believer. And this couldn't be further from the truth. Our Faith is a living Faith, which produces good works. These fruits flow from our Justification in Christ Alone! In the parable you quote, Jesus tells us to care for our brothers & sisters, in whatever shortcomings they have; give food, clothes, shelter, love, whatever needs there is. Not just WISH them well, and go our merry way. The Reformers are in full agreement with this.

But this is not the CAUSE or GROUND of our Justification. If you say it is, then you just contradicted what you have written in your previous post; that we are saved by Grace through Faith, and not by works, correct? Its either by Grace or Works that we are saved, it cannot be both. The sinner's Justification can only be found in Christ who came to save the ungodly! What can a sinner offer God in exchange for Salvation? You immediately just to the Sanctification of the believer, or conflate Justification into Sanctification, or turn Gospel into Law, and Law into Gospel, which is no Gospel at all. The reason you fail to see, how amazing and rich God's Grace really is; is because you fail to see the horrible predicament we are in after the Great fall! So you make no mention of it. There is no Law speech from you on it. Well maybe a little of it for the believer, but no mention of it for the sinner!

Romans 3:19Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

I have presented other passages to you, that you avoided. I hope you will address this one for us? But Paul continues to address our plight before a Holy Righteous Judge.


The Righteousness of God Through Faith​

Romans 3:
21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

I hope you will read this and understand what Paul is saying here. Because this is good news for sinners, not the righteous!

Hope this helps???

In Christ Alone through Faith Alone apart from works! Romans 3:28

Thank you for being polite and straightforward with your intentions.

I see you mentioned a Living Faith which produces works. This is good and right where we should be. You did, however, say that there was a contradiction.

Be sure that there is no contradiction between Christ Alone, Grace Alone, and what I am saying.
God made the first step. He defeated death by dying for us on the cross and rose from the dead, opening the doors to Heaven. Without Christ there would be no salvation.
It is thus by grace we are able to be saved, for it was the grace of God that Christ died and it is by the grace of God that we may choose Him.
With that said, God so desires us in Heaven, but if we deny Him through our actions, either outright rejection of Him through lack of faith, or by showing indifference to our neighbors, God’s creation whom He bought with a price, He won’t force us into Heaven. By rejecting others through our actions, we are rejecting God indirectly “Whatever you did not do for the least of these you did for Me”. We are rejecting love, and God Is love.

But I think between us, this conversation is closed. If you say your faith is alive and produces works, then I have no quarrel with your theology. If at the end of the day, those works end up working towards your salvation, that’s great. If at the end of the day you didn’t need them, what harm was done?

God bless and thank you.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: anna ~ grace
Upvote 0

Thomas Cooper

Active Member
Jan 24, 2019
53
22
Billings
✟17,491.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I was referring to the entire book but Hebrews 7 can be a summary of sorts.


Well, there's no surprise here. That's the RC claim. Again this goes back to whether there are NT priests or not. Of course you received the crucified Lord. We differ in doctrine here but that doesn't change what the Lord promised 1 Cor 11.

Hi again.

I’ll have to re-read Hebrews; I seem to have missed that.

As for the Eucharist, I’ll accept that compromise; it works for me.

God bless
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Athanasius377
Upvote 0

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Site Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,123
743
Los Angeles
✟192,604.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Thank you for being polite and straightforward with your intentions.

I see you mentioned a Living Faith which produces works. This is good and right where we should be. You did, however, say that there was a contradiction.

Good morning to you, sir. Like I have been saying, this is what the Reformers taught, which a lot of people caricature. So you see, that your position on the Reformation was incorrect. As far as your contradiction; you say it's by Grace, but then say it 'ALL' depends on us? So, sir, it was by a Promise that God made with Adam & Eve, and Abraham; that He will do for us, what we could never do. Under the first Adam we are all convicted Law breakers, unable to do anything to gain merit or favor with God in exchange for Salvation. Which is why the Second Adam was sent by God to the fulfill Law for us, by becoming a curse for us, and fulfilling it with Perfect Obedience (One Act of Obedience, Romans 5). God also gives us a New Heart to believe and follow him (Ezekiel 36).
Be sure that there is no contradiction between Christ Alone, Grace Alone, and what I am saying.
God made the first step. He defeated death by dying for us on the cross and rose from the dead, opening the doors to Heaven. Without Christ there would be no salvation.
It is thus by grace we are able to be saved, for it was the grace of God that Christ died and it is by the grace of God that we may choose Him.

This is very vague & ambiguous. Can you expound further on these points, before I respond?
With that said, God so desires us in Heaven, but if we deny Him through our actions, either outright rejection of Him through lack of faith, or by showing indifference to our neighbors, God’s creation whom He bought with a price, He won’t force us into Heaven. By rejecting others through our actions, we are rejecting God indirectly “Whatever you did not do for the least of these you did for Me”. We are rejecting love, and God Is love.

Okay, I find this part to contradict your premises. Before I reveal to you how they contradict your position. Please explain Romans 3:28 for us in detail, thanks.
But I think between us, this conversation is closed. If you say your faith is alive and produces works, then I have no quarrel with your theology. If at the end of the day, those works end up working towards your salvation, that’s great. If at the end of the day you didn’t need them, what harm was done?

God bless and thank you.

The Reformers, and earlier have always maintained that the good works of the believer flows from their Justification in Christ Alone through Faith Alone apart from ANY works (Romans 3:28). Please note that believers do not stand firm on any works they provide, but always on the solid rock; namely Christ Jesus and his Perfect Righteousness!

Christ is the Redeemer, the Messiah, the Savior, Last Adam who came to save God's people from their sins.

Salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9).

Hope this helps???

In Christ Alone through Faith Alone apart from works!
 
Upvote 0

Thomas Cooper

Active Member
Jan 24, 2019
53
22
Billings
✟17,491.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Good morning to you, sir. Like I have been saying, this is what the Reformers taught, which a lot of people caricature. So you see, that your position on the Reformation was incorrect. As far as your contradiction; you say it's by Grace, but then say it 'ALL' depends on us? So, sir, it was by a Promise that God made with Adam & Eve, and Abraham; that He will do for us, what we could never do. Under the first Adam we are all convicted Law breakers, unable to do anything to gain merit or favor with God in exchange for Salvation. Which is why the Second Adam was sent by God to the fulfill Law for us, by becoming a curse for us, and fulfilling it with Perfect Obedience (One Act of Obedience, Romans 5). God also gives us a New Heart to believe and follow him (Ezekiel 36).


This is very vague & ambiguous. Can you expound further on these points, before I respond?


Okay, I find this part to contradict your premises. Before I reveal to you how they contradict your position. Please explain Romans 3:28 for us in detail, thanks.


The Reformers, and earlier have always maintained that the good works of the believer flows from their Justification in Christ Alone through Faith Alone apart from ANY works (Romans 3:28). Please note that believers do not stand firm on any works they provide, but always on the solid rock; namely Christ Jesus and his Perfect Righteousness!

Christ is the Redeemer, the Messiah, the Savior, Last Adam who came to save God's people from their sins.

Salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9).

Hope this helps???

In Christ Alone through Faith Alone apart from works!

I’m sorry if my language was not clear; I’ll try to be more straightforward from now on.

When I say there is no contradiction let me elaborate further.

I agree that man was doomed to die since the Fall.
I agree that the new Adam, Jesus Christ, God the Son Incarnate, by His death and resurrection freed us from sin and allowed man back into life.
Now freed, we can accept the invitation to the king’s banquet by believing in Him and His saving grace and by proving this by loving our fellow children of God.
 
Upvote 0

Athanasius377

Is playing with his Tonka truck.
Site Supporter
Apr 22, 2017
1,371
1,515
Cincinnati
✟711,093.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
About purgatory, if you would like another Jewish source, see 2nd Maccabees (Chapter 12) where the Jews pray for the dead. Even if you despute the theology of Maccabees, you cannot despute its historical content. The Maccabees did pray for the dead.
Actually, its both. But if you mean 2 Maccabees comes from antiquity then yes. The theology of the book is frankly a mess which is why it is rejected by both Jews and Protestants as scripture. Of course praying for the dead that committed mortal sin. And if that's not bad enough Judas then violates the very covenant he sought to uphold by taking up a sin offering for the dead in violation of Leviticus 4

38 Then Judas assembled his army and went to the city of Adullam. As the seventh day was coming on, they purified themselves according to the custom, and they kept the Sabbath there.
39 On the next day, as by that time it had become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kinsmen in the sepulchers of their fathers. 40 Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. 41 So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; 42 and they turned to prayer, imploring that the sin that had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. 43 He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of 2,000 drachmas of silver and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. 44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.



Engelbrecht, E. A. (Ed.). (2012). The Apocrypha: The Lutheran Edition: Text (2 Mac 12:38–45). Saint Louis, MO: Concordia Publishing House.

Then there's the glorification in suicide 2 macc ch 14:
A certain Razis, one of the elders of Jerusalem, was denounced to Nicanor as a man who loved his fellow citizens and was very well thought of and for his good will was called father of the Jews. 38 For in former times, when there was no mingling with the Gentiles, he had been accused of Judaism, and for Judaism he had with all zeal risked body and life. 39 Nicanor, wishing to exhibit the enmity that he had for the Jews, sent more than 500 soldiers to arrest him; 40 for he thought that by arresting him he would do them an injury. 41 When the troops were about to capture the tower and were forcing the door of the courtyard, they ordered that fire be brought and the doors burned. Being surrounded, Razis fell upon his own sword, 42 preferring to die nobly rather than to fall into the hands of sinners and suffer outrages unworthy of his noble birth. 43 But in the heat of the struggle he did not hit exactly, and the crowd was now rushing in through the doors. He bravely ran up on the wall and manfully threw himself down into the crowd. 44 But as they quickly drew back, a space opened, and he fell in the middle of the empty space. 45 Still alive and aflame with anger, he rose, and though his blood gushed forth and his wounds were severe he ran through the crowd; and standing upon a steep rock, 46 with his blood now completely drained from him, he tore out his entrails, took them with both hands and hurled them at the crowd, calling upon the Lord of life and spirit to give them back to him again. This was the manner of his death.

Engelbrecht, E. A. (Ed.). (2012). The Apocrypha: The Lutheran Edition: Text (2 Mac 14:37–46). Saint Louis, MO: Concordia Publishing House.

And James did not lead the Council of Jerusalem. In his speech he says “listen brothers, Simon has just explained...” and then he explains it in his words. In other words, James said “hey guys, as Peter said...”. And notice how Peter spoke after much debate and the assembly fell silent before him. Then he opened the floor for others to talk.
And notice I put “diocese” in quotation marks, because they weren’t dioceses until later. If you have a better word, perhaps just “parish,” please help. I didn’t want to suggest disunity within the early Church

Better read that passage again. You have to force that reading into the text because the plain reading doesn't support your position. James ultimate sides with Peter yes but it is James who brings the council to a close. If Peter were presiding he should have brought council to a close.
James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. 14 Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,

16 “ ‘After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;
I will rebuild its ruins,
and I will restore it,
17 that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,
says the Lord, who makes these things 18 known from of old.’

19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.



The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Ac 15:13–20). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles.

I wouldn’t say it’s “miles away”. He was still in charge, he just wasn’t physically there. I get what you’re saying though.

Its 1475 Miles to be exact if Sylvester took the Popemobile. The point is you can't have a council were you are presiding if you aren't even in attendance.

Sorry about the language mix-up. I’m not actually fluent in either Greek or Latin and I must’ve used the wrong one on accident. But nevertheless, the traditional verb is used here as a noun suggesting it is a title. In fact, the word doesn’t really even exist in Greek. It’s as if Luke made it up. It borrows the verb “to give grace” (or, reflexive: to have been given grace). And while the actual title “full of grace” appears elsewhere in scripture, Scott Hahn says that, although not perfect, is a better translation (in this context) than “favored” or “highly favored.”

That's tradition forcing meaning where there is none. I suspect Scott knows exactly what the translation should be but won't say it around other catholics. He holds an MDiv from Gordon-Conwell so I am sure he had at least two years of Greek. If Luke wanted to say (And the Angel Gabriel for that matter) "full of grace" he would have written πλήρης χάριτος, but that's not what he wrote because the Angel didn't say that. Either Scripture is inerrant and God-breathed or it is something else. Also recall that Luke is writing to Theophilus a narrative of the things that Luke has researched of which the infancy portion he likely got from Mary herself. So the argument that there is all this hidden meaning would have been completely lost on Theophilus whom the account is written for in the first place makes absolutely no sense.

Other scripture sources for the Immaculate Conception are the stories of the Ark of the Convenant, which typologists say is a foreshadowing of Mary. The Ark contained the 10 Commandments (the Law), Aaron’s staff (the priesthood), and the manna (the bread “from Heaven”). Mary’s womb contained Jesus Christ, the Law perfected and fulfilled, the high priesthood and ultimate priestly authority, and the actual Bread of Life. Just as God preserved the Ark from contamination, He should have gone to greater lengths to protect the womb where He stayed for ~9 months.
To help demonstrate this, compare:
Exodus 40:34-35, Numbers 9:15 vs Luke 1:35
2 Sam 6:11 vs Luke 1:26, 40
2 Sam 6:9 vs Luke 1:43
2 Sam 6:14-16 vs Luke 1:44

I actually don't have a problem with the idea of type and shadow or in the way you use it here. What you wrote is fine but I would not bind someone to believe it. It also breaks down in the last sentence because recall the Ark was captured by the Philistines 1 Samuel 4-5 so that Immaculate part doesn't work.

Perhaps we should start another thread. Either you or me. If I don't see one I will start one and ping you.
 
Upvote 0

Thomas Cooper

Active Member
Jan 24, 2019
53
22
Billings
✟17,491.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Actually, its both. But if you mean 2 Maccabees comes from antiquity then yes. The theology of the book is frankly a mess which is why it is rejected by both Jews and Protestants as scripture. Of course praying for the dead that committed mortal sin. And if that's not bad enough Judas then violates the very covenant he sought to uphold by taking up a sin offering for the dead in violation of Leviticus 4

38 Then Judas assembled his army and went to the city of Adullam. As the seventh day was coming on, they purified themselves according to the custom, and they kept the Sabbath there.
39 On the next day, as by that time it had become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kinsmen in the sepulchers of their fathers. 40 Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. 41 So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; 42 and they turned to prayer, imploring that the sin that had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. 43 He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of 2,000 drachmas of silver and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. 44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.



Engelbrecht, E. A. (Ed.). (2012). The Apocrypha: The Lutheran Edition: Text (2 Mac 12:38–45). Saint Louis, MO: Concordia Publishing House.

Then there's the glorification in suicide 2 macc ch 14:
A certain Razis, one of the elders of Jerusalem, was denounced to Nicanor as a man who loved his fellow citizens and was very well thought of and for his good will was called father of the Jews. 38 For in former times, when there was no mingling with the Gentiles, he had been accused of Judaism, and for Judaism he had with all zeal risked body and life. 39 Nicanor, wishing to exhibit the enmity that he had for the Jews, sent more than 500 soldiers to arrest him; 40 for he thought that by arresting him he would do them an injury. 41 When the troops were about to capture the tower and were forcing the door of the courtyard, they ordered that fire be brought and the doors burned. Being surrounded, Razis fell upon his own sword, 42 preferring to die nobly rather than to fall into the hands of sinners and suffer outrages unworthy of his noble birth. 43 But in the heat of the struggle he did not hit exactly, and the crowd was now rushing in through the doors. He bravely ran up on the wall and manfully threw himself down into the crowd. 44 But as they quickly drew back, a space opened, and he fell in the middle of the empty space. 45 Still alive and aflame with anger, he rose, and though his blood gushed forth and his wounds were severe he ran through the crowd; and standing upon a steep rock, 46 with his blood now completely drained from him, he tore out his entrails, took them with both hands and hurled them at the crowd, calling upon the Lord of life and spirit to give them back to him again. This was the manner of his death.

Engelbrecht, E. A. (Ed.). (2012). The Apocrypha: The Lutheran Edition: Text (2 Mac 14:37–46). Saint Louis, MO: Concordia Publishing House.



Better read that passage again. You have to force that reading into the text because the plain reading doesn't support your position. James ultimate sides with Peter yes but it is James who brings the council to a close. If Peter were presiding he should have brought council to a close.
James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. 14 Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,

16 “ ‘After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;
I will rebuild its ruins,
and I will restore it,
17 that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,
says the Lord, who makes these things 18 known from of old.’

19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.



The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Ac 15:13–20). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles.



Its 1475 Miles to be exact if Sylvester took the Popemobile. The point is you can't have a council were you are presiding if you aren't even in attendance.



That's tradition forcing meaning where there is none. I suspect Scott knows exactly what the translation should be but won't say it around other catholics. He holds an MDiv from Gordon-Conwell so I am sure he had at least two years of Greek. If Luke wanted to say (And the Angel Gabriel for that matter) "full of grace" he would have written πλήρης χάριτος, but that's not what he wrote because the Angel didn't say that. Either Scripture is inerrant and God-breathed or it is something else. Also recall that Luke is writing to Theophilus a narrative of the things that Luke has researched of which the infancy portion he likely got from Mary herself. So the argument that there is all this hidden meaning would have been completely lost on Theophilus whom the account is written for in the first place makes absolutely no sense.



I actually don't have a problem with the idea of type and shadow or in the way you use it here. What you wrote is fine but I would not bind someone to believe it. It also breaks down in the last sentence because recall the Ark was captured by the Philistines 1 Samuel 4-5 so that Immaculate part doesn't work.

Perhaps we should start another thread. Either you or me. If I don't see one I will start one and ping you.

I would argue that Maccabees isn’t in the Tanakh for other reasons, most of which we as Christians disagree with, but you’re right: we can discuss the canon of Scripture in another thread.
I would also differentiate facts from tone in Maccabees. I.e. it is a fact that Judas led the Jews in prayer for the dead.
It would be the tone of the author(s) that honors suicide in those circumstances.
I just re-read Leviticus 4 and I seem to miss what you’re saying about sin offerings for the dead. Could you elaborate on that please?
I also just re-read the Council of Jerusalem at your request, but my position has not changed. Perhaps that’s my bias though.

Also, I didn’t mean literal miles but that 1475 miles away got me.

I’d also like to point out that Theophilius (God-lover/he who loves God) is most likely not a specific person but rather a pseudonym St. Luke gives to the Christian community in general. That’s not a 100% proven fact but that’s what I’ve heard and I think it makes sense so there’s that.

And again, perhaps these things belong in another thread
 
  • Like
Reactions: Athanasius377
Upvote 0

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Site Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,123
743
Los Angeles
✟192,604.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I’m sorry if my language was not clear; I’ll try to be more straightforward from now on.

When I say there is no contradiction let me elaborate further.

I agree that man was doomed to die since the Fall.
I agree that the new Adam, Jesus Christ, God the Son Incarnate, by His death and resurrection freed us from sin and allowed man back into life.
Now freed, we can accept the invitation to the king’s banquet by believing in Him and His saving grace and by proving this by loving our fellow children of God.

No need to apologize Mr. Cooper. All I am trying to share with you is the Gospel that Paul preached. Either it's 'ALL OF GRACE', or not.

Galatians 3:
The Law and the Promise

15To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offspring,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

Understand this distinction between Law & Gospel in relation to Justification by Faith Alone, and you will understand what the Reformers were fighting for. God's Promise cannot be earned or merited by us. It is given freely as a gift from God. And this 'Free Gift' is 'His Son' who signs His own death warrant, knowing exactly what he will have to endure to save us! To save God's elect from their sins!
God who is rich in Love and Mercy came into this world in the flesh to pay and suffer in our stead; took our place on the Cross and endured God's full righteous wrath for us! And Christ's perfect righteousness that He merited through His Law-Keeping is given to us as a gift received through Faith Alone; and is the only works that we can stand firm upon; as if we did it ourselves!

I know you will disagree with this, which is your choice. I just challenge you, like a Berean to seek it for yourself.

Oh, before I forget, to continue with the rest of those passages in Galatians:

Galatians 3:19Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

21Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

Please study Galatians 3 for yourself. Reach out if you need help.

Hope this helps???

In Christ Alone!







 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Site Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,123
743
Los Angeles
✟192,604.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Faith Alone Is The Instrument Of Justification AND Salvation
heidelblog.net


Controversy can be ugly and painful and the recent controversy over sanctification has been both at times. It can also be helpful by bringing greater clarity and this controversy has been useful in that respect. Some orthodox Reformed pastors are being charged with antinomianism because they allegedly over emphasize grace—how sinners who face eternal condemnation apart from the free favor merited for them by the perfect, whole obedience of Christ can over emphasize grace I am uncertain but that is the charge. Further, it is charged that some of these advocates of free grace downplay the moral, logical necessity of sanctification and good works as a consequence of Christ’s free justification of sinners. Whether that is so is a necessarily subjective judgment. Must one publish something on sanctification every time one publishes something on justification? Who determines how much emphasis on sanctity is enough? To be sure, it probably is the case that, in their enthusiasm for justification sola gratia, sola fide, some proponents of free acceptance with God have perhaps not been as consistently clear about the implications of grace and the normative role of the moral law for those who’ve been freely justified (accepted with God) and who live before the face of God (coram Deo) by grace alone through faith alone, in union with Christ.

With those caveats out of the way, one feature of the response by some to the renewed emphasis on grace is the assertion that though we are justified by grace alone, through faith alone we are saved partly through works. This distinction has emerged more clearly in recent discussions in response to some of the recent posts on the HB and in correspondence. So, is it the case that we are justified sola gratia, sola fide but that our works are part of the instrument through which we are finally delivered from the wrath to come?

I’ve addressed this question in earlier posts (that were not written during a heated controversy and so may have been missed). As part of my regular exposition of the Heidelberg Catechism (which is why this is called the Heidelblog) I wrote 10 posts explaining the Heidelberg Catechism’s definition of faith. In part 10 I contrasted the teaching of the Q/A 21 (“what is true faith?”) with that of Norman Shepherd, one of the godfathers of the self-described Federal Vision movement and the intellectual grandfather of some of the criticisms of the advocates of free grace. In this post I want to borrow from that earlier post and weave that material together with a response to some of the critics.

In the course of this discussion it has been argued to me that our sanctification, that conformity to Christ and obedience wrought in us by the Spirit is part of the instrument, the means, not of our justification—although some seem to be distinguishing between an initial justification sola gratia, sola fide and a final justification that includes sanctity, a distinction that is utterly foreign to Reformed theology—but of our salvation, i.e., our final deliverance from the judgment to come.

I reply: Our obedience is either the ground (the basis), the instrument (the means), or the evidence (the fruit) of our salvation. The Reformed doctrine is the latter. It is the case that believers will be progressively sanctified by the work of the Holy Spirit, through the due use of ordinary means, and that progressive sanctity will produce obedience in conformity to God’s holy law. That sanctity and concomitant and consequent obedience, however, is no part of the ground or instrument of our final salvation or acceptance with God.

The difficulty is that some Reformed folk are not satisfied with making Spirit-wrought sanctity, which produces obedience that comes to expression in good works, a logically necessary fruit of justification and the evidence of their regeneration, justification, union with Christ, adoption etc. They want that sanctification and attendant good works to do more. They want that sanctity, obedience, and fruit to be a part of the means or instrument of our salvation (deliverance from the wrath to come), which includes our justification. As historians are wont to say, this has happened before.

Norman Shepherd, who taught at Westminster Seminary in Philadelphia from the 1950s until 1981, and who was dismissed from his post there because of his doctrine, and whose doctrine of justification has been denounced by several confessional Reformed denominations, made good works more than the logically necessary fruit and evidence of our free acceptance with God in Christ. In his notorious 1978 “Thirty Four Theses” Shepherd wrote:

11. Justifying faith is obedient faith, that is, “faith working through love” (Gal. 5:6), and therefore faith that yields obedience to the commands of Scripture.

Shepherd adopted a Romanist definition of faith formed by love. He turned “working” into “makes faith what it is” or “makes faith justifying.” It was against this very error that the Protestants were so adamant in saying that good works are never the ground (with which Shepherd formally agreed in the 34 Theses) or the instrument of salvation. Shepherd rejected the Protestant doctrine on this point. That rejection led him to teach:

18. Faith, repentance, and new obedience are not the cause or ground of salvation or justification, but are, as covenantal response to the revelation of God in Jesus Christ, the way (Acts 24:14; II Peter 2:2, 21) in which the Lord of the Covenant brings his people into the full
possession of eternal life.

Notice that he mentions the ground (basis) and cause of justification and salvation but he omits the instrument. This is because he has already folded works into his definition of faith as the instrument not only of justification but also of salvation. According to Shepherd, sanctification and works are our “covenantal response” and “the way” by which we “come into possession of eternal life.” I was reminded of this language in our recent discussions. He continues:

20. The Pauline affirmation in Romans 2:13, “the doers of the Law will be justified,” is not to be understood hypothetically in the sense that there are no persons who fall into that class, but in the sense that faithful disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ will be justified (Compare Luke 3:21; James 1:22-25).

Contra Calvin and the Reformed, there are Reformed people today who adopt this view of Romans 2:13 and that should be quite concerning. The Reformed view is that, in Romans 2:13, Paul is preaching the law, he is prosecuting the Jews for thinking that they could, finally, present themselves to God on the basis of their works. In effect, Paul says: Go ahead. See how well you do. Paul says in Romans 2:13

For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. (Romans 2:13 ESV)

Our Lord Jesus did not merely hear the law. He did it. He performed. He obeyed. He earned his standing before God and he earned, by his condign merit, a right standing before God for all who believe. Paul is not teaching here that believers, in union with Christ, can (if they exert themselves) present themselves to God in part or wholly on the basis of Spirit-wrought sanctity. On this passage Calvin explained:

…they gloried in the mere knowledge of it: to obviate this mistake, he declares that the hearing of the law or any knowledge of it is of no such consequence, that any one should on that account lay claim to righteousness, but that works must be produced, according to this saying, “He who will do these shall live in them.” The import then of this verse is the following, — “That if righteousness be sought from the law, the law must be fulfilled; for the righteousness of the law consists in the perfection of works.” They who pervert this passage for the purpose of building up justification by works, deserve most fully to be laughed at even by children. It is therefore improper and beyond what is needful, to introduce here a long discussion on the subject, with the view of exposing so futile a sophistry: for the Apostle only urges here on the Jews what he had mentioned, the decision of the law, — That by the law they could not be justified, except they fulfilled the law, that if they transgressed it, a curse was instantly pronounced on them. Now we do not deny but that perfect righteousness is prescribed in the law: but as all are convicted of transgression, we say that another righteousness must be sought. Still more, we can prove from this passage that no one is justified by works; for if they alone are justified by the law who fulfill the law, it follows that no one is justified; for no one can be found who can boast of having fulfilled the law.

Calvin read this passage not to teach the nature of the Christian life, as some Reformed folk do today, but he read it in light of the distinction between law and gospel. For Calvin, Romans 2:13 is not good news, that believers can, if they will, obey unto final acceptance with God. It is bad news: God still demands perfect obedience to the law and we cannot do it.

In response, as I’ve seen in this discussion, some who read Romans 2:13 to refer to Christian obedience “in the way of salvation” turn to the doctrine of congruent merit, that God imputes perfection to our best efforts so that those efforts are able to contribute toward our final acceptance with God. This is a version of the Franciscan covenant theology that the entire Reformation rejected. Again, it was against this background that the Belgic spoke of goods works “fruit” and evidence of our acceptance with God and not any part of the instrument.

We can see Shepherd folding works into faith as part of the instrument of justification and salvation here:

21. The exclusive ground of the justification of the believer in the state of justification is the righteousness of Jesus Christ, but his obedience, which is simply the perseverance of the saints in the way of truth and righteousness, is necessary to his continuing in a state of justification (Heb. 3: 6, 14).

Notice that he says “ground” but omits “instrument.” Notice too that he says that obedience is necessary for continuing in s state of justification. As Cornel Venema noted in his review of Shepherd’s Call of Grace Shepherd dispensed with merit altogether. This, of course, led him not only to deny our merits (which all Protestants should deny) but also the imputation of Christ’s merits. Yet, in this discussion, it seems that some of Tullian’s critics think that they are safe in talking about our good works somehow contributing to our final salvation so long as they deny that they are meritorious.

To be continued....
 
Upvote 0

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Site Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,123
743
Los Angeles
✟192,604.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Continues...

Speaking of “final salvation” do we really want to fall into the trap of two stages of justification or two stages of salvation? Yes, if salvation includes progressive sanctification, then, of course, it has been inaugurated in the application of redemption and will be consummated at the last day but it is not as if salvation is sola gratia, sola fide in this life and partly on the basis of Spirit-wrought sanctity and obedience at the last day. There are not two stages of justification. There is only one. “Having therefore been justified…” God’s Word does not say, “justification therefore having been initiated.”


Salvation is a broader term than justification as it includes the outworking of justification in our lives in sanctification. There are not two stages of salvation. It’s not as if we are initially delivered from the wrath to come by grace alone, through faith alone and then later delivered through faith and works or through faithfulness. No, our deliverance from the wrath to come is by grace alone, through faith alone, in union with Christ. On this Calvin is quite clear in Institutes 3.2.

When, contra the Gaffinite view of existential/mystical union with Christ I assert that there is a logical order of justification and sanctification and between faith and its effects, I’m following Calvin (Institutes 3.3.1):

With good reason, the sum of the gospel is held to consist in repentance and forgiveness of sins. Any discussion of faith, therefore, that omitted these two topics would be barren and mutilated and well-nigh useless. Now, both repentance and forgiveness of sins — that is, newness of life and free reconciliation — are conferred on us by Christ, and both are attained by us through faith. As a consequence, reason and the order of teaching demand that I begin to discuss both at this point. However, our immediate transition will be from faith to repentance. For when this topic is rightly understood it will better appear how man is justified by faith alone, and simple pardon; nevertheless actual holiness of life, so to speak, is not separated from free imputation of righteousness. Now it ought to be a fact beyond controversy that repentance not only constantly follows faith, but is also born of faith.

Repentance, the turning away from sin, the learning to hate sin more and more, is born of faith, it follows faith. Was Calvin an antinomian? Did Calvin deny union with Christ? Was Calvin weak on sanctification?

Back to Shepherd. Look what Shepherd does with our obedience. Having assumed a two-stage justification he teaches:

22. The righteousness of Jesus Christ ever remains the exclusive ground of the believer’s justification, but the personal godliness of the believer is also necessary for his justification in the judgment of the last day (Matt. 7:21-23; 25:31-46; Heb. 12:14).

Again, he denies that our obedience is any part of the ground of justification but he teaches that it part of the instrument of our justification on the last two. He’s not only made two stages of justification but he’s included our good works into faith in that justification, which he has now conflated with salvation. So, what began as a distinction between justification and salvation has elided. They are now one.

Please do not ignore what happens when good works become more than fruit, evidence or the way it is. When they become part of the ground (which even Shepherd denies—not to say that he was entirely consistent with his denial) or the instrument (which he affirms) the gospel is lost. The good news is not that we shall be finally accepted by God if we are sufficiently sanctified. The good news is that we have already been accepted by God (!) for Christ’s sake alone and because that it is so the same Holy Spirit who united us to Christ will also gradually, graciously work sanctity in us. Must we struggle to be sanctified? Yes! Amen! Is it hard? Yes! Amen! Must we take up our cross daily, die to self, and actively seek to grow in sanctity, in conformity to Christ? Yes! Amen! Is the judgment a final exam for believers wherein our standing with God is renegotiated on the basis of how well we did in this life? μὴ γένοιτο. May it never be! The standing with God of all believers has already been adjudicated at the cross and our Savior said: It is finished! That is the Word of God. That is the gospel. If an angel tries to tell you differently little one, you tell him “Get behind me Satan.”

Shepherd continues:

23. Because faith which is not obedient faith is dead faith, and because repentance is necessary for the pardon of sin included in justification, and because abiding in Christ by keeping his commandments (John 15:5, 10; I John 3:13, 24) are all necessary for continuing in the state of justification, good works, works done from true faith, according to the law of God, and for his glory, being the new obedience wrought by the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer united to Christ, though not the ground of his justification, are nevertheless necessary for salvation
from eternal condemnation and therefore for justification (Rom. 6:16, 22; Gal. 6:7-9).

When Shepherd says “continuing in a state of justification” he not only implied that we can lose our justification, a denial of the biblical and Reformed doctrine of perseverance (see the 5th head of doctrine of the Canons of Dort) but he also teaches that the “good works…done from true faith” i.e., “the new obedience” are necessary to retain what has been given. They are “necessary for salvation” which he rightly defined as deliverance from eternal condemnation. This was the doctrine of George Major in the 1550s, that good works are necessary for “retaining salvation.” This is the Marjorist error that all the Protestants rejected in the 1550s.


Shepherd juxtaposed “works of the law” with “good works:”

24. The “works” (Eph. 2:9), or “works of the Law” (Rom. 3:28; Gal. 2:16), or “righteousness of my own derived from the Law” (Phil. 3:9), or “deeds which we have done in righteousness”(Titus 3:5) which are excluded from justification and salvation, are not “good works” in the Biblical sense of works for which the believer is created in Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:10), or works wrought by the indwelling Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:9; Gal. 5:22-26), or works done from true faith (I Thess. 1:3), according to the law of God, and for his glory, but are the works of the flesh (Gal. 3:3) done in unbelief (Gal. 3:12) for the purpose of meriting God’s justifying verdict.

He thinks that by juxtaposing the two and by making good works Spirit-wrought sanctity, that he can fold them into the instrument of justification and salvation without harm. He even says “done from true faith,” which some critics of Tullian seem reluctant to say. Shepherd explains:

25. The Reformed doctrine of justification by faith alone does not mean that faith in isolation or abstraction from good works justifies, but that the way of faith (faith working by love), as opposed to the “works of the law” or any other conceivable method of justification, is the only way of justification. (John Calvin, Institutes, III, 11, 20. “Indeed, we confess with Paul that no other faith justifies ‘but faith working through love'{Gal 5:6]. But it does not take its power to justify from that working of love. Indeed, it justifies in no other way but that it leads us into fellowship with the righteousness of Christ.”)

Shepherd’s language of “the way of faith,” is how he teaches the Roman doctrine of faith formed by love. He quotes Calvin, as if Calvin taught Shepherd’s doctrine of justification and salvation through faith and works. He did not:

When you are engaged in discussing the question of justification, beware of allowing any mention to be made of love or of works, but resolutely adhere to the exclusive particle.

That’s from Calvin’s 1548 Commentary on Galatians 5:6. The reason that Calvin wrote those words is the Roman doctrine of justification and salvation through faithfulness or through faith formed by love. The remarkable thing is that in two theses Shepherd actually mentions the very error that he teaches:

26. The Roman Catholic doctrine that justification is a process in which the unjust man is transformed into a just man by the infusion of sacramental grace confuses justification with sanctification, and contradicts the teaching of Scripture that justification is a forensic verdict of God by which the ungodly are received and accepted as righteous on the ground of the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ.

More than once in this discussion over the years it has been said to me that as long as we make justification forensic we may, in effect, say what we will about salvation (including sanctification). Well, Shepherd taught that justification is forensic (a legal declaration) but that doesn’t help if we omit sola fide from justification and salvation.

27.The Roman Catholic doctrine that faith merits (congruent merit) the infusion of justifying grace, and that faith formed by love and performing good works merits (condign grace) eternal life contradicts the teaching of Scripture that justification is by grace through faith apart from works of the law.

Shepherd is aware of the Roman doctrine of faith formed by love (fides formata caritate) he just doesn’t understand that is what he teaches. He thinks that by omitting merit and infused grace that he’s saved himself, as it were, from the Roman definition of faith. He hasn’t. He doesn’t understand that his the Roman doctrine of justification and salvation by grace and cooperation with grace. Spirt-wrought sanctity is necessary as a consequence of our justification. Justified and saved people will produce good fruit by grace alone, through faith alone. We may even say they shall do so but that Spirit-wrought sanctity and those consequent good works are not and cannot be the instrument through which we are either justified or saved. God has nowhere promised to impute perfection to our best efforts (facientibus quod in se est, Deus non denegat gratiam or congruent merit).

Think of all that Shepherd includes in his definition of faith:



    • Spirit-wrought Obedience
    • Repentance
    • Keeping his commandments
    • Perseverance
How much obedience does it take to make faith true? How much repentance and how sincere must it be in order for faith to be considered genuine? How well must one keep the commandments in order to successfully persevere and to be qualified to be finally justified?

Contrast Shepherd’s definition of faith in the act of justification with Heidelberg Catechism Q/A 21:


21. What is true faith?

True faith is not only a certain knowledge whereby I hold for truth all that God has revealed to us in His Word; but also a hearty trust, which the Holy Spirit works in me by the Gospel, that not only to others, but to me also, forgiveness of sins, everlasting righteousness and salvation are freely given by God, merely of grace, only for the sake of Christ’s merits.

The Heidelberg never mentions or even hints at Spirit-wrought sanctity and obedience (works) in its definition of faith in the act of justification.

There is one ground of justification: Christ’s whole, perfect obedience credited to believers and received through faith defined as resting, receiving, leaning upon, trusting in Christ and his finished work. The new life wrought in us by the Spirit necessarily produces sanctity and sanctity results in obedience and good works. The putting to death of the old man and the making alive of the new is a struggle. As a consequence of Christ’s gracious salvation of his people they (we) owe him utter thankful obedience, which the Spirit is graciously producing in us, but that obedience never becomes any part of the instrument through which we are accepted with God or finally saved from the wrath to come.
 
Upvote 0

Thomas Cooper

Active Member
Jan 24, 2019
53
22
Billings
✟17,491.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
No need to apologize Mr. Cooper. All I am trying to share with you is the Gospel that Paul preached. Either it's 'ALL OF GRACE', or not.

Galatians 3:
The Law and the Promise

15To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offspring,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

Understand this distinction between Law & Gospel in relation to Justification by Faith Alone, and you will understand what the Reformers were fighting for. God's Promise cannot be earned or merited by us. It is given freely as a gift from God. And this 'Free Gift' is 'His Son' who signs His own death warrant, knowing exactly what he will have to endure to save us! To save God's elect from their sins!
God who is rich in Love and Mercy came into this world in the flesh to pay and suffer in our stead; took our place on the Cross and endured God's full righteous wrath for us! And Christ's perfect righteousness that He merited through His Law-Keeping is given to us as a gift received through Faith Alone; and is the only works that we can stand firm upon; as if we did it ourselves!

I know you will disagree with this, which is your choice. I just challenge you, like a Berean to seek it for yourself.

Oh, before I forget, to continue with the rest of those passages in Galatians:

Galatians 3:19Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.


21Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.


23Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

Please study Galatians 3 for yourself. Reach out if you need help.

Hope this helps???

In Christ Alone!







Amen! I actually agree with more than you think. All salvation comes from our Savior, Jesus Christ, for “there is no other name under Heaven” and “no one comes to the Father, except through [Him]”. And you are right in quoting St. Paul by saying that the Law saves no one. This was established at Jerusalem and later on by the early Church. By our faith, he says, not by works of the ancient Jewish Law are we saved. With all this I agree.

I’ll make one distinction though. The new Law, Jesus Christ is essential. I think the misunderstanding between us is that you think I’m saying one earns salvation through faith and good deeds. This I am not. For the innocent children in the womb have neither faith nor works, yet Jesus commands “let the children come to Me.” I am saying that we can reject God’s free gift by either not having faith or by not loving (and true love manifests itself in works).
 
Upvote 0

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Site Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,123
743
Los Angeles
✟192,604.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Amen! I actually agree with more than you think. All salvation comes from our Savior, Jesus Christ, for “there is no other name under Heaven” and “no one comes to the Father, except through [Him]”. And you are right in quoting St. Paul by saying that the Law saves no one. This was established at Jerusalem and later on by the early Church. By our faith, he says, not by works of the ancient Jewish Law are we saved. With all this I agree.

I’ll make one distinction though. The new Law, Jesus Christ is essential. I think the misunderstanding between us is that you think I’m saying one earns salvation through faith and good deeds. This I am not. For the innocent children in the womb have neither faith nor works, yet Jesus commands “let the children come to Me.” I am saying that we can reject God’s free gift by either not having faith or by not loving (and true love manifests itself in works).

I have always been curious about something, and hope you can help me? What do you mean by ancient Jewish Laws?
 
Upvote 0

Thomas Cooper

Active Member
Jan 24, 2019
53
22
Billings
✟17,491.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I have always been curious about something, and hope you can help me? What do you mean by ancient Jewish Laws?

Hi, I’ll be glad to clear things up. By ancient Jewish Laws, I’m refering to either the prohibitionary laws found in Leviticus or the permanent laws found in Leviticus and Deuteronomy.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Site Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,123
743
Los Angeles
✟192,604.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Hi, I’ll be glad to clear things up. By ancient Jewish Laws, I’m refering to either the prohibitionary laws found in Leviticus or the permanent laws found in Leviticus and Deuteronomy.
So you are speaking of the Sinai Covenant.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Thomas Cooper
Upvote 0