Faith and works not that hard to figure out.

[☦Marius☦]

Was that a typo concerning the Romans and Lutherans use of “unleavened” bread. I thought Rome was looked down upon for using leavened bread instead of unleavened bread for the Eucharist.

Yes

 

[Pethesedzao]

Really it’s not that hard to figure out.

Ephesians 2: NASB
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (NASB)

We have to become His workmanship.

Marty and Frank discuss it.

We ARE His workmanship

 

[redleghunter]

If one answers the questions im asking it wouldn't make me want to pull my hair out.

Sure address the OP and we can discuss what you want according to the subject. Seems like good manners to do so.

 

[redleghunter]

We ARE His workmanship

That seems to be the key term in the passage linking two concepts. Thank you.

 

[Varangian Christian]

Sure address the OP and we can discuss what you want according to the subject. Seems like good manners to do so.

I and many others have already done so. It is YOU who are dodging questions and ignoring arguments. Address the many arguments and Scripture passages that have been given and stop being purposely obtuse.

 

[redleghunter]

I and many others have already done so. It is YOU who are dodging questions and ignoring arguments. Address the many arguments and Scripture passages that have been given and stop being purposely obtuse.

The OP was very simple. It’s on the relationship of works to our salvation. The key word in the transition is God’s workmanship.

How all the posts on works based Salvation, circumcision and loss of salvation relate to the simple truth of as those in Christ being the workmanship of God created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life, is simply off subject.

In fact a deflection from the actual text quoted.

 

[Varangian Christian]

The OP was very simple. It’s on the relationship of works to our salvation. The key word in the transition is God’s workmanship.

How all the posts on works based Salvation, circumcision and loss of salvation relate to the simple truth of as those in Christ being the workmanship of God created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life, is simply off subject.

In fact a deflection from the actual text quoted.

You are spouting word salad. Speak plainly. Do you assert that the phrase "God's workmanship" proves Sola Fide? If so explain why.

And no, they are not deflections. I can speak for myself and what i posted to you all dealt with the matter of grace in salvation. You have been very insulting to everyone here who took the time to bother with this thread.

 

[redleghunter]

The OP was very simple. It’s on the relationship of works to our salvation. The key word in the transition is God’s workmanship.

How all the posts on works based Salvation, circumcision and loss of salvation relate to the simple truth of as those in Christ being the workmanship of God created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life, is simply off subject.

In fact a deflection from the actual text quoted.

You are spouting word salad. Speak plainly. Do you assert that the phrase "God's workmanship" proves Sola Fide? If so explain why.

And no, they are not deflections. I can speak for myself and what i posted to you all dealt with the matter of grace in salvation. You have been very insulting to everyone here who took the time to bother with this thread.

Well good let’s visit the full text and preceding. Audience Gentiles as we see in verse 11.

Ephesians 2: NASB
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (NASB)

We are all children of wrath, by God’s Grace while we were dead in our transgressions made us alive in Christ

Grace is a gift of God. We are saved by Grace. Not works. Pretty clear.

We are God’s workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand.

Simple to the point shows the order.

 

[redleghunter]

What concerns me is we can address their scripture quotes but they don’t address ours.

Only three people answered the OP.

You were not one.

 

[Cis.jd]

Only three people answered the OP.

You were not one.

You are the only one who hasn't answered anything.

 

[redleghunter]

Correcting a heresy with heresy doesn't make it legitimate.

There was already a church that stood against papism and had much more claim to being the church then any denomination of the reformation.

Well that corrected one problem.

 

[redleghunter]

You are the only one who hasn't answered anything.

You mean the Nazi false premise. That was so loaded just peeling the fallacy away would have been a waste of time.

 

[Cis.jd]

You mean the Nazi false premise. That was so loaded just peeling the fallacy away would have been a waste of time.

No your views are just irrational and the rejection of reason (and scripture too).

 

[redleghunter]

And no, they are not deflections. I can speak for myself and what i posted to you all dealt with the matter of grace in salvation.

You posted a video of a man in a nice pious hat (I do like the hat) with no explanation of your own. Was that “your answer” his answer?

 

[redleghunter]

No your views are just irrational and the rejection of reason (and scripture too).

Address the text and let’s see.

 

[Varangian Christian]

We are all children of wrath, by God’s Grace while we were dead in our transgressions made us alive in Christ

Yes, though to be clear that does not support something like original sin. Here is a good quick explanation:
https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/morningoffering/2017/02/ancestral-sin-7/

Grace is a gift of God. We are saved by Grace. Not works. Pretty clear.

And again, let me link the article and video i already gave your previously:

• Salvation Is Indeed By Grace

Both of these succinctly explain how salvation by grace does NOT contradict the necessity of works for our salvation. Read/watch them and explain what it is you object to.

If you are still going to ignore the above links then let me put it to you in an analogy. Say you play an online MMO game (you know what those are?) and one day you get a notification that the developers have given out free membership (access to special privileges, customization options, game modes, etc) passes to everyone who accepts them. However, while the gift is free to retain it you must be sure to play the game for ten minutes every day as well as not engage in any ban worthy behavior.

In the above analogy the gift the developers give is fully by their own "grace". That does not negate the necessity of the every day play time and conforming to the rules of behavior. The same is true of God's grace.

We are God’s workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand.

Yes, which obviously necessitates us carrying out those works. Your train of thought seems to have stopped at some point.

You posted a video of a man in a nice pious hat (I do like the hat) with no explanation of your own. Was that “your answer” his answer?

I posted a lot more than that both in this post and the many others I have contributed to this thread. The video of Father Spyridon though does sum up my views nicely.

Please, stop being patronizing. It does not make it any easier for me to remain civil, especially when i see you flat out ignoring or hand waving the arguments and explanations people spent time to give you.

 

[Cis.jd]

Address the text and let’s see.

countless text has already been shown to you, and right now you are just responding like a child.
You obviously have no care at all what the text says and have been showing this butt hurt attitude because this thread only resulted in you getting dismantled by everybody else through scripture. You are likely going to reply with "see no scripture" and ignore past attempts and other posts here.

You were given a question to rationalize the doctrine, but your answer is just "nah.. i don't need to answer". You want to force it into a bible only debate so you can remain crafty and force down your narrow interpretation abilities which is why you reject, ignore, and undermine logic and reason being brought into the discussion.

 

[Varangian Christian]

countless text has already been shown to you, and right now you are just responding like a child.
You obviously have no care at all what the text says and have been showing this butt hurt attitude because this thread only resulted in you getting dismantled by everybody else through scripture. You are likely going to reply with "see no scripture" and ignore past attempts and other posts here.

You were given a question to rationalize the doctrine, but your answer is just "nah.. i don't need to answer". You want to force it into a bible only debate so you can remain crafty and force down your narrow interpretation abilities which is why you reject, ignore, and undermine logic and reason being brought into the discussion.

Spoiler: I had to do it, lol

 

[redleghunter]

countless text has already been shown to you,

All but the actual quoted text in Ephesians 2.

You were given a question to rationalize the doctrine,

The doctrine? Paul’s doctrine?

 

[Cis.jd]

All but the actual quoted text in Ephesians 2.

Which text in Ephesians 2, 2:10?..

The doctrine? Paul’s doctrine?

Your doctrine..

 

[Varangian Christian]

All but the actual quoted text in Ephesians 2.

I have addressed it. Now respond with an actual argument. I am sorry to inform you, Bible passages do not argue for themselves.

The doctrine? Paul’s doctrine?

Of course you know by cherrypicking one passage of Scripture what Paul's doctrine was and not, you know, the Apostles and their successors who knew Paul and taught faith+works. /s