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Faith and works not that hard to figure out.

Varangian Christian

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I almost converted to Orthodox. Their theological views have always attracted me, and it still does. Where you are comfortable with is matters at the end.

What made you choose the RC over the Orthodox?

Actually, me and my family have had to get over a lot of things that made us uncomfortable about the Orthodox. As we gain better understanding of their teachings we begin to see the beauty in them true, but initially it wasn't comfort that drove me to them. I am convinced they are the Apostolic Church and so any inconvenience i have i look at as something i simply need to overcome.
 
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redleghunter

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Are you saying it is not a necessity to abide in Christ? Hmmm...
I actually did not say that. What I said clearly is not to confuse your necessity with abiding in Christ. If you read John 15 we cannot do anything without Him and abiding is the only way we produce fruit.
 
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redleghunter

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It may come as a shock to you, but not all doctrines are explicitly outlined in one single passage of Scripture. Furthermore, if we are created for good works then it is necessary for us to do them.
Exactly. However the OP was about how faith and works relate in and through Christ. It seems some don’t like Apostolic teachings.
 
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Varangian Christian

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Exactly. However the OP was about how faith and works relate in and through Christ. It seems some don’t like Apostolic teachings.

Explain, right now, where you think my analogy goes wrong:

"Say you play an online MMO game (you know what those are?) and one day you get a notification that the developers have given out free membership (access to special privileges, customization options, game modes, etc) passes to everyone who accepts them. However, while the gift is free to retain it you must be sure to play the game for ten minutes every day as well as not engage in any ban worthy behavior."

If there is no problem then say so and stop wasting my time.
 
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mark kennedy

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Really it’s not that hard to figure out.

Ephesians 2: NASB
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (NASB)

We have to become His workmanship.

Marty and Frank discuss it.




Ephesians 2 is emphasising that we are dead to sin, made alive and raised up with Christ in the heavenly realms. This is to show the glorious riches of God's grace. That same grace not only saves, but sanctifies, and a little later Paul will discuss the gifts (lit. grace), and the weapons of our warfare, the whole armor of God. So we build up the body of Christ and tear down the strongholds of Satan. Those works were planned and prepared before the foundation of the world, because those works must be a gift, because only God can provide them.

We have another faith and works thread every week, I have always wondered why someone doesnt ask, what works? It's actually the most important point of the text.
 
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redleghunter

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Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." - Matthew 7:21

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." - Matthew 24:13
That is correct those in Christ will persevere to the end.
Saint Matthew disagrees, as does James, as does every one of the Apostles and Church Fathers. I wonder who is right, lol.
Actually supports what I have said. Those in Christ will persevere. The Spirit testifies with our spirit we are children of God (Romans 8:16).

And no, it does not make a requirement for God's grace. God's grace is given freely but we abide in that grace by works. It sounds like you are arguing for once saved always saved, if so then admit it and debate honestly.
Of our works keep Grace it is no longer Grace.

Romans 4: NASB
4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7“BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.

8“BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOTTAKE INTO ACCOUNT.” (NASB)

And

Romans 11: NASB
6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

I do. As did all the early Church fathers and as the Church does today. You are not an authority.

I’ve just revealed to you the text and that seems to vex you and others.

Yes, God made us alive by grace through faith. I do not disagree with that. You have confused the initial giving and receiving of grace with the lifelong process of salvation where we must, according to Paul:
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." - Philippians 2:12
Show me how that means we merit salvation after being Justified by faith. I just showed above that if we add works it is no longer Grace.

Salvation by grace and the necessity of works are NOT mutually exclusive. Get that through your head and you will be on your way to the truth.
I don’t say that but Paul sure does. If we think our works save then it is no longer Grace. What we do is expected of us.

Are you saying that if we are "saved" that we will do good works as in we cannot sin after being saved? Speak clearly, man.
Read clearly man as I never said that or implied that.

Nothing in those passages you provided, Ezekiel or Ephesians, contradicts our stance. You are making up a mutual exclusion between grace and works where there is none. Notice verse 27:

"And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." Ezekiel 36:27
He did say cause you to. Why do you think He said that?

You already said this passage refers to the new Covenant, therefore in the new covenant we must do good works that God requires. Now your only argument would be to say that humans don't have free will and we are puppets. Is that your argument? Let us know so we can crush that heresy debate you honestly.
The text does not say must do good works for salvation. Nowhere in the Bible do we see that taught. In fact what we do as new creations we cannot take any credit for doing. Why? It is the righteousness of God through Jesus Christ He reckons to us. Whatever we do is the due work of the laborers of the harvest for the Kingdom of God.

In fact you are teaching falsely. I already showed that if we think our works keep the gift of Grace or merit it, then it is no longer Grace. That is quite axiomatic in the teachings of Paul.

To debate honestly one must stop misrepresenting words and phrases not presented. It is almost like you are looking for a pet straw man to erect because you can’t handle the texts presented.
A person who is not part of an Apostolic Church cherrypicking and twisting the words of Chrurch Fathers who would condemn him as an heretic... wonderful.
Claim Apostolic church all you want but that assertion doesn’t hunt.

I’m showing you Apostolic teachings from the NT and you can’t handle the truth of them.

As Gracia said above, his words support, not contradict, our beliefs.
His words lay out what one who is regenerated will do. Not that it merits Grace. If he did he then contradicts himself and I don’t think he does.

Do you believe in:
  • Once saved always saved.
  • Calvinism.
  • That humans are puppets.
  • etc.

Can’t handle the texts so you want me to fit inside a box so you can argue against the box. Well I have to say that is poor debating techniques. The good Fr. Gelsemino of debate team told us when this happens the debate is over, game set match.
 
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redleghunter

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Explain, right now, where you think my analogy goes wrong:

"Say you play an online MMO game (you know what those are?) and one day you get a notification that the developers have given out free membership (access to special privileges, customization options, game modes, etc) passes to everyone who accepts them. However, while the gift is free to retain it you must be sure to play the game for ten minutes every day as well as not engage in any ban worthy behavior."

If there is no problem then say so and stop wasting my time.
A defective analogy. The “gift”
has conditions of work. God’s Grace is unmerited and warranty free. Why? Because it is a gift before the foundations of the Earth.

And once any work other than the Finished Work of Christ is added to Grace, then it is no longer Grace.

And stop playing video games with strangers and read more of the Bible and join a Bible study with fellow Christians.
 
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Varangian Christian

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That is correct those in Christ will persevere to the end.

Actually supports what I have said. Those in Christ will persevere. The Spirit testifies with our spirit we are children of God (Romans 8:16).

And how do we persevere to the end? By doing good works which without which our faith is DEAD.

Of our works keep Grace it is no longer Grace.

We have to do good works (run the race, live according to God's will) to be reach salvation. I think you are arguing over something you yourself do not understand, saying terms contradict each other where there is no contradiction. The grace is free, but if we break from God by doing wickedness/not doing what He commands then we are not in His grace, just as my analogy explained.

I’ve just revealed to you the text and that seems to vex you and others.

You posted a passage and then either failed to articulate what you meant in a discernible manner or have spouted heresy. Since you will not explain anything in a straight forward manner I am not sure which, but it is infuriating either way.

Show me how that means we merit salvation after being Justified by faith. I just showed above that if we add works it is no longer Grace.

I do not believe in works meriting salvation. I explained as much previously and the links/video i provided made my position perfectly clear. It is evident you did not read or listen to what i gave you and are thus debating in bad faith.

I don’t say that but Paul sure does. If we think our works save then it is no longer Grace. What we do is expected of us.

Our works do not "save", they are necessary in our lifelong process of salvation. That is a big difference which i and others have explained ad infinitum but which you choose to ignore.

Read clearly man as I never said that or implied that.

You have implied it throughout this thread by saying things like those who are saved "will persevere" rather than they must persevere to be saved. Either that or you are simply very, very bad at getting your point across in a coherent manner.

He did say cause you to. Why do you think He said that?

He also says "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you", does that mean God renews our heart whether we want Him to or not? No. Salvation is a synergy between God and man, not one side doing all the work.

Now you explain what you believe it means.

The text does not say must do good works for salvation. Nowhere in the Bible do we see that taught. In fact what we do as new creations we cannot take any credit for doing. Why? It is the righteousness of God through Jesus Christ He reckons to us. Whatever we do is the due work of the laborers of the harvest for the Kingdom of God.

Again, doing god works does not merit salvation, doing good works is a necessary part of the lifelong process of salvation.

In fact you are teaching falsely. I already showed that if we think our works keep the gift of Grace or merit it, then it is no longer Grace. That is quite axiomatic in the teachings of Paul.

I dont think you can accuse anyone of teaching falsely as I doubt you understand the arguments of anyone here, including yourself. Maybe if you had actually bothered to read the links and arguments I and others have given you then you could understand our position.

To debate honestly one must stop misrepresenting words and phrases not presented. It is almost like you are looking for a pet straw man to erect because you can’t handle the texts presented.

Ironic._My_stupid_attempt_at_a_new_meme._I_tried_4bafa6_3552920.jpg


Claim Apostolic church all you want but that assertion doesn’t hunt.

I’m showing you Apostolic teachings from the NT and you can’t handle the truth of them.

Oy vey! If they are Apostolic they will agree with the Church, which is why I gave you the link and video explaining what I believe. Again, is their anything in the link and video I provided you which which you disagree? If not, then stop wasting my time!

His words lay out what one who is regenerated will do. Not that it merits Grace. If he did he then contradicts himself and I don’t think he does.

Round and round we go...

I don't believe in merited grace. You would have known that if you actually cared to read my arguments or the sources i linked to you, but you didn't, because you are apparently dishonest and lazy.

And again, you say that one who is regenerated WILL DO good works, implying that it is not even a choice for one to do good works which leads to the heresy that nobody can lose their salvation. Do you believe this?

*waits for forthcoming dodging incoherent response*

Can’t handle the texts so you want me to fit inside a box so you can argue against the box. Well I have to say that is poor debating techniques. The good Fr. Gelsemino of debate team told us when this happens the debate is over, game set match.

No, i want you to argue in a coherent manner. Did your debate team leader teach you to make your argument indecipherable?

A defective analogy. The “gift”
has conditions of work. God’s Grace is unmerited and warranty free. Why? Because it is a gift before the foundations of the Earth.

Our continued salvation has conditions! If i start worshiping Satan am I still "saved"? Likewise if I stop communicating with God am I still "saved"? Your above comment heavily implies once saved always saved but you seem to claim you do not believe that, thus again you have failed to coherently explain what you believe.

And once any work other than the Finished Work of Christ is added to Grace, then it is no longer Grace.

What do you mean by "added"?
 
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(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

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Really it’s not that hard to figure out.

Ephesians 2: NASB
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (NASB)

We have to become His workmanship.

Marty and Frank discuss it.




I cannot see the videos but the scripture is spot on. We are saved by faith through grace in order to do works. Not saved by grace through works.
 
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mark kennedy

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Now before this goes any further you must make your beliefs absolutely clear. You have engaged in fundamentally dishonest behavior, purposely not making your stance clear and ignoring most of the arguments against you, and this farce must stop now
Do you believe in:
  • Once saved always saved.
  • Calvinism.
  • That humans are puppets.
  • etc.
There is no formal doctrne of once saved always saved, its called eternal security, synonomous with eternal life. He has openly identified as Calvinist, does not believe that make us puppets and I have no idea what etc. means in that list and not sure you do.
 
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Varangian Christian

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He has openly identified as Calvinist, does not believe that make us puppets

It basically does though...

I have no idea what etc. means in that list and not sure you do.

It means he needs to actually explain his views in a coherent manner. Right now I cant tell if he legitimately disagrees with me or if this is all just a misunderstanding.
 
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Danthemailman

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The Greek word pisteuo includes more in its definition than the English word believe. Notice the definition below the first 3 descriptions all have a number 1 in front of them. That’s because the primary definition includes all three of these qualities. Notice the one I highlighted in bold letters.

believeth

G4100

Lemma:

πιστεύω

Transliteration:

pisteúō

Pronounce:

pist-yoo'-o

Part of Speech:

Verb

Language:

greek

Description:

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in a) of the thing believed

1) to credit, have confidence b) in a moral or religious reference

1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith

2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity a) to be intrusted with a thing
The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), *especially reliance upon Christ for salvation* ;abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

The word translated believe is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ).

Strong's Concordance
pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Definition: to believe, entrust
Usage: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in Christ unto salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. This belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions/works are NOT INHERENT in the belief.
 
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Danthemailman

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I already answered you. Jesus made salvation possible but it doesn't mean works are eliminated.
Do you teach that we are saved through faith AND works? If so, how many works does it take?

Do you think Hitler is saved by his faith alone? Simple question.
What kind of faith did Hitler have which caused him to order the death of millions of Jews? What kind of faith is that? :eek:

No, i'm not saying they are not true it's just incomplete. You can't cherry pick one side and not the other side otherwise this isn't the entirety of the teaching. Faith alone is mentioned once and it is condemned, it also has to many logic holes therefore there is nothing supporting it.
In James 2:24, "faith alone" or "faith only" here is in reference to an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" -- barren of works. (James 2:14) Not to be confused with faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-9; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

You don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO. So then its faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.

It's not about cherry picking scripture (and it's also not about distorting and perverting passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" a works based false gospel) *It's about properly harmonizing scripture with scripture. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* :oldthumbsup:
 
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BNR32FAN

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The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), *especially reliance upon Christ for salvation* ;abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

The word translated believe is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ).

Strong's Concordance
pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Definition: to believe, entrust
Usage: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in Christ unto salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. This belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions/works are NOT INHERENT in the belief.

If that is true then why don’t you post the full definition Strong’s provides instead of only the part that supports your position? Notice I posted the full definition not intending to leave anything out. Like I said before notice in pisteou the first 3 descriptions have a number 1 in front of them. That means that all three are parts of the primary definition. It’s not either or its all of them together that make up the full definition. This is why so many are misled because the words used in the English translations often do not encompass the full definition of the Greek word used in the scriptures.

believe


G4100


Lemma:

πιστεύω


Transliteration:

pisteúō


Pronounce:

pist-yoo'-o


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in a) of the thing believed

1) to credit, have confidence b) in a moral or religious reference

1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith

2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity a) to be intrusted with a thing


Grammar:

from πίστις; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):--believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.



faith


G4102


Lemma:

πίστις


Transliteration:

pístis


Pronounce:

pis'-tis


Part of Speech:

Noun Feminine


Language:

greek


Description:

1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it a) relating to God

1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ b) relating to Christ

1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God c) the religious beliefs of Christians d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same

2) fidelity, faithfulness a) the character of one who can be relied on


Grammar:

from πείθω; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
 
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Hazelelponi

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It means he needs to actually explain his views in a coherent manner. Right now I cant tell if he legitimately disagrees with me or if this is all just a misunderstanding.

I have no issue understanding the points being made by the poster in question, he is being quite clear in my pov.

your issues with God's sovereignty in election aside there is a clear point in the discussion.

As I have also attempted to explain, when you have two people equal in works, one an atheist and one a justified believer in Christ, it isn't the works that justifies it's belief in Christ, its a God given faith.

Faith and works not that hard to figure out.

As Christ says I am the Way the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through me.

So what of works?

If works has no bearing before justification it has no bearing after either, everything about salvation must have its root in Christ or it's false.

The works we are looking for after our initial justification are works that come from a regenerated heart - works that have God and only the things of God in mind - not self, not some arbitrary reward or any other human reason, yet they won't save you, they exist because God did a mighty work in you that you can now operate in the Name (power of, under the authority of) Christ.

James says there will most certainly be some type of physical proof of our faith, but that doesn't contradict with Grace and it doesn't add or subtract from salvation, it simply shows faiths existence. It proves the change wrought in you by God.
 
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Danthemailman

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Since it is our God given mission to do good works of course it is a necessity that we do them.

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." - James 2:14-26

The above passages are damning to the faith alone argument and are why Luther wanted to rip James out of Scripture. Without works your faith is as dead as a body without a soul.
We are saved FOR good works (Ephesians 2:10) and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Works-salvationists have it backwards and have the tail wagging the dog. The cart before the horse.

Let's examine James 2:14-26.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no resulting evidential works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! :oldthumbsup:

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/have faith/trust in/reliance in Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. Again, if someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidence for, or against a man's state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs. (James 2:18)

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).
 
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Danthemailman

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If that is true then why don’t you post the full definition Strong’s provides instead of only the part that supports your position? Notice I posted the full definition not intending to leave anything out. 1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

Grammar:

from πίστις; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):--believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it a) relating to God

2) fidelity, faithfulness a) the character of one who can be relied on

Grammar:

from πείθω; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
Nothing that you bolded "adds" the concept of "works" to the definition of pistis and pisteuo. You are reading your own biased conclusions into the definition of pistis and pisteuo in order to support your "works based" false gospel.
 
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Danthemailman

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James says there will most certainly be some type of physical proof of our faith, but that doesn't contradict with Grace and it doesn't add or subtract from salvation, it simply shows faiths existence. It proves the change wrought in you by God.
Amen! That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works is not hard to understand. (Ephesians 2:8,9) It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT. It's a shame that human pride will not allow works-salvationists to trust exclusively in Christ for salvation. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith. :(
 
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BNR32FAN

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Nothing that you bolded "adds" the concept of "works" to the definition of pistis and pisteuo. You are reading your own biased conclusions into the definition of pistis and pisteuo in order to support your "works based" false gospel.

What do you think the conviction to which man is impelled by a certain inner law of soul means?

the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
 
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Danthemailman

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What do you think the conviction to which man is impelled by a certain inner law of soul means?

the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
How do you define "the law of the soul" and how does that bolded statement support salvation by works?

If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer? Your answer to this question will demonstrate exactly what you are trusting in for salvation.
 
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