Faith and works not that hard to figure out.

[BNR32FAN]

Perhaps sometime we can do some Biblical exegesis without a straw man introduced.

I would like that.

 

[Cis.jd]

I asked YOU what did YOU do to save you?

I already answered you. Jesus made salvation possible but it doesn't mean works are eliminated.

Some do claim to believe but they are tares in God's wheat field planted by the enemy. You should know this.

How is this connected to what you quoted. Do you think Hitler is saved by his faith alone? Simple question.

Are you claiming the verses I posted are not true? If so, your argument is with the scripture not with me.People who believe in works righteousness always say we cherry pick scripture. But either the Word is true or it is a lie. What do you say?

No, i'm not saying they are not true it's just incomplete. You can't cherry pick one side and not the other side otherwise this isn't the entirety of the teaching. Faith alone is mentioned once and it is condemned, it also has to many logic holes therefore there is nothing supporting it.

Who said she remained a prostitute? Or are you just making a hypothetical strawman argument? the relationship

Read carefully. I was asking you if she can remain a prostitute after being forgiven.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

You are misquoting the verse. It is saying that we can't stop sinning alone.

 

[Oldmantook]

When we add anything of our merit to Grace it is no longer Grace.

Romans 11: NASB
6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

What kind of works is this verse referring to?

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

I'm not judging but I'm giving a logical example to you. As you say "we are the flawed ones", then that shows you that faith alone is a man made teaching, since it is shown to be logically flawed.

Is it logical that a virgin can conceive and bear a Son? Andb that son is God?
Is it logical that men walked on water?
Is it logical that one man can die and rise again in three days?
Lord Jesus took the sin of the world upon Himself, is that logical?

 

[NW82]

Do people actually believe works earn atonement? I’m curious what’s your interpretation of John 15:1-8?

I may be wrong but I believe Catholics and Amish believe this. Basically I see John 15:1-8 as saying that we are saved by grace, through Christ's sacrifice om the cross, however through being saved by grace we will bear fruit based on that saving in following through to be Christ like. I do not hold to the thought that we must have works to be saved.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

I already answered you. Jesus made salvation possible but it doesn't mean works are eliminated.

OK, I still don't understand what work you did to save yourself.

How is this connected to what you quoted. Do you think Hitler is saved by his faith alone? Simple question.

As the scripture affirms
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Matthew 7:16
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Matthew 7:20
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them
.What fruits you may ask

What fruits is He talking about?

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Hitler was what Lord Jesus called a tare planted by the enemy. He was by his fruit, not a sealed believer saved by faith unless he repented.

 

[Cis.jd]

Is it logical that a virgin can conceive and bear a Son? Andb that son is God?
Is it logical that men walked on water?
Is it logical that one man can die and rise again in three days?
Lord Jesus took the sin of the world upon Himself, is that logical?

All of these can be rationalized, it's just up to the person to accept them.
All of what you gave is already answered by: "he is God" which is why he isn't bound to natural laws. That alone is perfectly rational just by the premise. Additionally, there details of his attributes are said straight forward so even if a naturalist can't buy it, the fact is he can't deny the actual details that are said in scripture and the christian religion since the beginning.

This is not the same with Justification. The Bible has two sets of information, one we are saved by grace and the other explains the need of works. So that means this teaching is taught in a spread out format, unlike with Jesus' story. You should be able to defend your scriptural stance rationally.. but you can't so how can these verses be the entire message when not only do you have other verses telling you otherwise but also have logical holes in them? Just look at the question: can hitler and his nazi's be just saved by their faith alone? Deep down you are answering no, which is why you are ignoring these questions just like the TC did.

 

[Cis.jd]

OK, I still don't understand what work you did to save yourself.

The only work I can say is that i lived as honest to myself as I could. I have come to admission that I have things that I can't believe in, and sins that I still struggle with personally. I told you already that Christ's sacrifice gave everybody the opportunity to be saved but that doesn't mean that we can just sin as much and expect no penalty from it.

My boss on earth gave me the opportunity to live, i am now able to afford food on the table as well as pay my bills to survive the physical life. He gave that to me.. however does this mean I don't need to work?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Again with the cherry picking. Ep 2:8 does not tell you faith alone. Infact there is no "alone" in that verse and it's not the complete message.. finish this message of by quoting v10 please.. oh wait you did. What does it say again?

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

This is not the same with Justification. The Bible has two sets of information, one we are saved by grace

We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH! You left through faith out.

the other explains the need of works

It is faith that works. Please understand that. We have no righteousness of our apart from faith in what Jesus did.It is Him that works through us producing the Fruit.It is the fruit of the Spirit!

You should be able to defend your scriptural stance rationally.. but you can't so how can these verses be the entire message when not only do you have other verses telling you otherwise but also have logical holes in them?

I think I have defended my position very well using scripture. You are just not receptive to the Truth.

Just look at the question: can hitler and his nazi's be just saved by their faith alone?

Yes they can be saved. Forgiveness of sins is available to everyone that believes.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I may be wrong but I believe Catholics and Amish believe this. Basically I see John 15:1-8 as saying that we are saved by grace, through Christ's sacrifice om the cross, however through being saved by grace we will bear fruit based on that saving in following through to be Christ like. I do not hold to the thought that we must have works to be saved.

Bless you my friend but Jesus is only speaking to His 11 faithful apostles when He gave them this warning. The 11 faithful apostles are the only ones present to hear this message. So this was a warning to believers. According to John 6:64 Jesus already knew they were believers and just a few minutes later when they reached Gethsemane Jesus prayed to God saying they do not belong to this world.

 

[Cis.jd]

We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH! You left through faith out.

I did not leave anything out. Quote v10 because what you are doing is quoting an incomplete message. There is also no "alone" in there. No one denies that faith attributes to salvation, but what is being told to you that it's not the only one. Now quote v10 because if you continue to just hang by 8-9 with out completing the entire thing then you are taking the verse out of context intentionally.

You are just not receptive to the Truth.

How am i not being receptive to the truth when your argument hangs on an incomplete message and has logic holes. Are you going to keep ignoring the hitler question as well, doesn't that tell you who is not being receptive to the truth?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I asked YOU what did YOU do to save you?

Some do claim to believe but they are tares in God's wheat field planted by the enemy. You should know this.


Are you claiming the verses I posted are not true? If so, your argument is with the scripture not with
me.People who believe in works righteousness always say we cherry pick scripture. But either the Word is true or it is a lie. What do you say?

Who said she remained a prostitute? Or are you just making a hypothetical strawman argument?

Yes God establishes the relationship, but not apart from faith alone. Once He establishes the relationship,He seals you with His Holy Spirit, and you cannot break His seal.It is the Holy Spirit tthat is sealing you that works inside of you to teach, to correct, to keep you.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

So far everyone is declining to give their interpretation of John 15:1-8. May I ask what you believe Jesus is saying here?

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

The only work I can say is that i lived as honest to myself as I could. I have come to admission that I have things that I can't believe in, and sins that I still struggle with personally. I told you already that Christ's sacrifice gave everybody the opportunity to be saved but that doesn't mean that we can just sin as much and expect no penalty from it.

Now you are being honest. Lord Jesus did sacrifice for the forgiveness of your sins, He washes you clean, but in this world with it's temptations and your flesh with it's lusts still get your feet dirty but be of good cheer. For here is the promise of God to believers.
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
You see! We confess our sins. He forgives and cleanses. He is the Savior, not our works.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Are you going to keep ignoring the hitler question as well, doesn't that tell you who is not being receptive to the truth?

I have answered that question twice. Evidently you are not reading my posts.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

So far everyone is declining to give their interpretation of John 15:1-8. May I ask what you believe Jesus is saying here?

Yes you may ask. But what it reveals is mind blowing, for it tells you who YOU are in Christ.I would rather you consult the Holy Spirit because you may not accept it coming from me.

 

[Cis.jd]

Now you are being honest. Lord Jesus did sacrifice for the forgiveness of your sins, He washes you clean, but in this world with it's temptations and your flesh with it's lusts still get your feet dirty but be of good cheer. For here is the promise of God to believers.
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
You see! We confess our sins. He forgives and cleanses. He is the Savior, not our works.

Put at the same time the term goes "pick up your cross and follow me". You've ignored every single evidence given to you. The only place in scripture where you will "faith alone" told straight is in Jude, and it's condemned. So if you don't mind, can you re-quote Ephesians 2:10 and to finish off 2:8-9 that you used? It's also what i am saying in response to this quote of yours.

I have answered that question twice. Evidently you are not reading my posts.

I have not seen any answer. All you did was play the "we have finite minds" card which isn't an answer but a cop out. There is no scripture or logical defense on Faith alone and you just don't want to accept it.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Yes, but at the same time the term goes "pick up your cross". You've ignored every single evidence given to you, especially your misquote of Ep in where you don't want to repeat v10 that completes the entire message.

I did not misquote Ephesians, for I copied and pasted it from Bible Gateway.

Sorry, even the verses you provided invalidate "faith alone" when the rest of the message is brought in. T

Tell me this. What does "not of works" say to you?

 

[ripple the car]

I think one of the difficulties is that many Protestants see salvation as a past tense thing, through faith alone. "I was saved by faith, no works." Past tense.

Whereas a Catholic or Orthodox Christian would say that they are still being saved by Christ as they follow Him, become more like Him, and give Him more and more of their hearts, which inevitably will mean works, as we can't very well obey Him without doing things or refraining from doing other things.

One model might be likened to hopping onto a boat, which is then driven by another to the other shore. Another to a hike up a mountain, with Christ leading.

 

[Cis.jd]

I did not misquote Ephesians, for I copied and pasted it from Bible Gateway.

Ok, so what does v10 mean.

Tell me this. What does "not of works" say to you?

It means that Jesus' grace came first.. it's the source of it. Our works are not the source of the grace given but at as you read on, that doesn't mean faith alone. Just quote v10.. and answer the Hitler question. By faith alone, he and the other nazi's who murdered thousands of people are saved because the whole faith alone.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes you may ask. But what it reveals is mind blowing, for it tells you who YOU are in Christ.I would rather you consult the Holy Spirit because you may not accept it coming from me.

Lol again declined