Faith and works not that hard to figure out.

[Kenny'sID]

Believing in salvation includes faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus for salvation. Doing as He says after we have been saved through faith is works. We must not confuse the root of salvation (faith) with the fruit of salvation (works).

Read my last post, and the same goes to you. If you don't go by what gods word tells us, I can't do anything more for you because Gods word is all I have to prove my case....it's either enough or it isn't.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

@Kenny'sID Brother,respectfully, it is you who do not see and are confused about what the scripture is saying.I know you think you are reading it correctly but you are not! Please read my post here.
Faith and works not that hard to figure out.
It is not about us. It is about Lord Jesus...all of it.

 

[Cis.jd]

It’s a flawed strawman.

It’s like a politician asking if his opponent has stopped beating his spouse.

Sorry, but i think the only reason why you are dodging this question is because you understand the logic of it. You are going "nah", the same nonsense that you accused me off. Reason shows your interpretation of the verses are wrong and just half of the biblical message because if it was true then it should make sense with real life examples.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I haven't read the entire thread so if someone pointed this out the I apologize for reiterating.

This verse says those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

I actually know atheists who are as "good" as I am. There is no appreciable difference between their objective "goodness" and my own.

In charitable giving they are spot on. Indeed in sin they don't have any of what we consider open sins. they arent homosexuals, don't cheat on their spouses, don't lie, not alcoholics.. they are "good" they way we see good.

If anyone could make it into heaven on a technicality it would be them. So why will they rise to judgment and condemnation, and I rise to reward and life?

That's all Christ. I came to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ (belief in His life, death, and resurrection, as well declaring and believing in His Lordship over me) and was given the seed of God, the Holy Spirit upon my initial justification, and the atheist did not.

The good in me is God's Spirit. The good that I did was believe, which itself is a gift of God.

My rewards are rewards based on what I do as a result of that, as a consequence of that - but not my salvation. Not my rising to life.

I've certainly gone farther in my own personal "goodness" since I've been saved, I got out from under an addiction so the only thing to rule my life is God, the only Master I have is Him, but from the outside looking in lots of people quit addictions, lots of people who aren't saved do lots of things.

The good we are judged on is not any works we can do to force God's Hand and get into heaven.

Jesus said I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, No one comes to the Father except through Me.

When our good starts here and only here, then we can't declare works saves.. works is a response in love to the Gift, not the thing we do to get into heaven and that's what's being pointed out.

I agree, and I know they exist as well. What a shame they remained Atheist, and didn't accept Christ to go along with that. At no point did I claim works alone, just as i never claimed Faith alone....it's both

That's all Christ.

No, it's not all Christ, and whjat you stated in your post does not back that up at all.

However I will back up the fact it's both, but if you are like others, something strange is going to happen when you read the following ...I suppose we could call it the magic of denial, or just bizarre, as I put it earlier . Now read this and see what I mean:

James 2:24
Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

 

[fhansen]

Really it’s not that hard to figure out.

Ephesians 2: NASB
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (NASB)

We have to become His workmanship.

Marty and Frank discuss it.

Yes, we become His workmanship by entering communion with Him, 'apart from Whom we can do nothing' (John 15:5). Man was made for this communion; it's the chief aspect of his justice while its opposite, separation from God, is the chief aspect of the state known as Original Sin. This relationship is established via faith and it must be maintained; we must remain in Him so that we continue to be a work of His that we cooperate in as our salvation, itself, is worked out. He continues to grace us and we're expected to respond, doing the works He's prepared for us, "investing" our "talents". And this relationship, to the extent that its healthy, naturally tends to exclude sin. In fact, works for the good of others, such as for "the least of of these" (Matt 25:31-46) as well as refraining and freedom from sin are the natural product of this relationship because, when performed for the right reasons, these acts or behavior are motivated by love, the very nature of God we're to be transformed into. This means that the communion or relationship is most fully consummated and expressed to the extent that we love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves.

This relationship and the state of being it establishes and cultivates in man is the heart of man's justice, that which makes him right in the eyes of God, that which constitutes right order in His creation. It's the path we must be on, the orientation we must maintain, with His help.

The video, BTW, failed to portray much of anything close to reality and certainly didn't relate the Catholic position. In Catholicism, again, love is the heart of man's justice while faith is the root or foundation of that justice, the means to it. The two are not the same. And, "At the evening of life", as the RCC teaches, "we'll be judged on our love". This brings the whole of Scripture and the gospel into focus. Martin Luther and His Sola Fide doctrine come off as a bit shallow by comparison, or stifled, and even priggish. But maybe love has become too much of a hippie word for Christianity?

Again, works are the natural product of love, not faith, and love is the natural product of communion with God, who, alone, can produce that love in us, i.e., justify us.
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing". 1 Cor 13

 

[Kenny'sID]

@Kenny'sID Brother,respectfully, it is you who do not see and are confused about what the scripture is saying.I know you think you are reading it correctly but you are not! Please read my post here.
Faith and works not that hard to figure out.
It is not about us. It is about Lord Jesus...all of it.

I already know your view, we differ, and will both hold to our belief. What else can I say?

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

I already know your view, we differ, and will both hold to our belief. What else can I say?

Yes we differ. All I ask is that you read my post. I have prayed for your eyes to open to the Truth. Lord Jesus is the Savior all by Himself.And He is able to keep us saved.
Jude 1:24 To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.(NIV)
Jude 1:
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.(KJV)

 

[Cis.jd]

Yes we differ. All I ask is that you read my post. I have prayed for your eyes to open to the Truth. Lord Jesus is the Savior all by Himself.And He is able to keep us saved.

All due respect, his eyes are not closed. You can't just cherry pick verses and then ignore other verses that speak on works. This is how we defend certain doctrines such as the Trinity and the divinity of Christ. We have verses that say one thing and then other verses that say the other, they don't contradict each other but they are expanded.

Scripture wise, we have very little verses to support faith alone, in fact you only hear this term once in the entire bible and the only time you see it is when it being condemned (James 2:24).
While faith with works is much more in quantity and much more detailed as a must. Read Philippians 2:12, Paul speaks of faith as a life-long process not a one time experience; how he talks about the need of self-discipline (1 Cor 9:24-27), and the stuff he said in Romans 2:6-11 before you show me 3:28.

Aside from scripture there is very 0 logical reasoning for faith alone. Just look at the question I gave the OP and how he responded to it by a 1 sentence dodge. The last time I checked stats, the population of the world is arguably 7.3 billion while there are about a total of 467 million christians in the world. So 93% of the population is going to hell. This is 30% success rate -- and this is the population that is currently alive. What about the past millions of years that we existed in this planet? It shows God to be incompetent and flawed designer that he made this loving creation and yet 93% are to be destroyed.
I've also seen some of the "faith-aloners" debating the moral code to the atheists here. Why would God give us morals in the first place when all that seems necessary is just believing in Jesus?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Really it’s not that hard to figure out.

Ephesians 2: NASB
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (NASB)

We have to become His workmanship.

Marty and Frank discuss it.

The way I see it, from faith we have good works. Regeneration.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

All due respect, his eyes are not closed. You can't just cherry pick verses and then ignore other verses that speak on works. This is how we defend certain doctrines such as the Trinity and the divinity of Christ. We have verses that say one thing and then other verses that say the other, they don't contradict each other but they are expanded.

So tell me what work did you, apart from faith, do to become justified? Scripture please.

While faith with works is much more in quantity and much more detailed as a must. Read Philippians 2:12, Paul speaks of faith as a life-long process not a one time experience; how he talks about the need of self-discipline (1 Cor 9:24-27), and the stuff he said in Romans 2:6-11 before you show me 3:28.

So iyho, Is it Lord Jesus that saved you, or Jesus plus you? Where does your faith come from? Who is doing the work in you?

I've also seen some of the "faith-aloners" debating the moral code to the atheists here. Why would God give us morals in the first place when all that seems necessary is just believing in Jesus?

Salvation is easier than the legalism that you preach.

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

1 John 3:23
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

 

[ripple the car]

I don’t think your church supports sinless perfection. Yes that is the goal to strive each day but only Christ was sinless and perfect in the flesh.

Or is your point as long as we are obedient more than disobedient this is good enough?

Obedience is fueled by love and by grace. And by an act of will. There is an expectation that if we are following Christ, we will make every effort, weak and prone to err though we all are, to live in a way that is pleasing to Him, to keep His commandments, to avoid sin, and to control / mortify our flesh and our egos. It's a journey.

We won't be sinless until Heaven, but we can carry the Cross, offer up our struggles, and climb the mountain. We'll stumble and fall here and there, but if we are contrite and willing, Christ picks us back up, and helps us to keep going. Over time, more evil will fall by the wayside, and our lives will more and more resemble Christ.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

It shows God to be incompetent and flawed designer that he made this loving creation and yet 93% are to be destroyed.

This is just your assessment and your opinion. But who are you o man that you can judge our Father? We are the flawed ones. But God in love sent the solution to our sinful state in Lord Jesus Christ. Believe on Him. Put no confidence in your flesh.

 

[Cis.jd]

So tell me what work did you, apart from faith, do to become justified? Scripture please.

The scripture is found in what you quoted.

So iyho, Is it Lord Jesus that saved you, or Jesus plus you? Where does your faith come from? Who is doing the work in you?

Jesus did save me, as with the rest of the world but regardless of what he did doesn't mean i can just do anything. People like Hitler claimed to believe in Jesus, is he saved because of his faith?

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

1 John 3:23
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

As i said, you can't cherry pick verses and then ignore the rest. There is still more verses that say it directly that faith alone is wrong. Faith alone is mentioned only once in scripture, and that single time it is ever mentioned it is condemned. God is about relationships, he establishes the relationship but afterwards you have to progress in this new life.

An example of that is Jesus saving the woman who was about to be stoned. Jesus gave forgiveness first and then told her to sin no more. Can this woman believe in Jesus and yet still remain as a prostitute?

This is just your assessment and your opinion. But who are you o man that you can judge our Father? We are the flawed ones. But God in love sent the solution to our sinful state in Lord Jesus Christ. Believe on Him. Put no confidence in your flesh.

I'm not judging but I'm giving a logical example to you. As you say "we are the flawed ones", then that shows you that faith alone is a man made teaching, since it is shown to be logically flawed. One of the things that christians should stop doing is throwing the "finite mind" card everytime they are met with logic in an argument. It is almost like a cop out or "denial of truth roll". Our faith is not unintelligent, it is the most reasonable form of faith that can be explained, demonstrated, and supported through logic and reason.

God is love, but faith and love is all progressive.. even in human relationships, your love for someone doesn't mean anything unless it's actually put to work.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, in James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no resulting evidential works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

That’s one way to look at it but unfortunately John 15 sends the same message but in this case the message is to Jesus’ 11 faithful apostles. So there’s no question in this case as to whether they were true believers or not but yet they are in the same boat.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The real issue is the the works doctrine says Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough.

Do people actually believe works earn atonement? I’m curious what’s your interpretation of John 15:1-8?

 

[Ronald]

Really it’s not that hard to figure out.

Ephesians 2: NASB
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (NASB)

We have to become His workmanship.

Marty and Frank discuss it.

1. Justified by faith means salvation comes by grace through faith.
2. The works are evidence of the Holy Spirit doing works through a person who has received faith.
3. So James wants to see the Holy Spirit working in one's life, a Christ-like life, where the fruit of the Spirit is evident. In essence, "By their fruit you will know them."

 

[BNR32FAN]

Believing in salvation includes faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus for salvation. Doing as He says after we have been saved through faith is works. We must not confuse the root of salvation (faith) with the fruit of salvation (works).

The Greek word pisteuo includes more in its definition than the English word believe. Notice the definition below the first 3 descriptions all have a number 1 in front of them. That’s because the primary definition includes all three of these qualities. Notice the one I highlighted in bold letters.

believeth


G4100


Lemma:

πιστεύω


Transliteration:

pisteúō


Pronounce:

pist-yoo'-o


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in a) of the thing believed

1) to credit, have confidence b) in a moral or religious reference

1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith

2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity a) to be intrusted with a thing

 

[redleghunter]

Hey man, im trying to make this discussion productive and you are not helping. In the interest of good and honest debate please make your stance clear. You could start by explaining what exactly you object to in the video i posted to you.

Also, the verse in the OP in no way by itself supports salvation by faith alone. Both the link and the video i gave you explain that Orthodox do believe that we are saved by Grace but that it does not contradict the need for us to do good works. Please, explain what exactly you find wrong with the Orthodox view and stop wasting time.

Lastly, for the sake of everyone here, state whether you are a Calvinist, believe in once saved always saved, etc.

I know we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life. But when did that become a necessity when it is our mission?

 

[redleghunter]

Being justified just means you have a clean slate it doesn’t mean you can live any way you please and that slate remains clean.

Perhaps sometime we can do some Biblical exegesis without a straw man introduced.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

The scripture is found in what you quoted.

I asked YOU what did YOU do to save you?

Jesus did save me, as with the rest of the world but regardless of what he did doesn't mean i can just do anything. People like Hitler claimed to believe in Jesus, is he saved because of his faith?

Some do claim to believe but they are tares in God's wheat field planted by the enemy. You should know this.

As i said, you can't cherry pick verses and then ignore the rest. There is still more verses that say it directly that faith alone is wrong. Faith alone is mentioned only once in scripture, and that single time it is ever mentioned it is condemned. God is about relationships, he establishes the relationship but afterwards you have to progress in this new life.

Are you claiming the verses I posted are not true? If so, your argument is with the scripture not with
me.People who believe in works righteousness always say we cherry pick scripture. But either the Word is true or it is a lie. What do you say?

Can this woman believe in Jesus and yet still remain as a prostitute?

Who said she remained a prostitute? Or are you just making a hypothetical strawman argument?

Yes God establishes the relationship, but not apart from faith alone. Once He establishes the relationship,He seals you with His Holy Spirit, and you cannot break His seal.It is the Holy Spirit tthat is sealing you that works inside of you to teach, to correct, to keep you.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.